Shaw66

Oh, yeah, there are great QBs who never won one. What I'm saying is that QBs who are great football players but who aren't great QBs generally don't. Josh Allen may be the best player in the entire league right now. He's an unbelievable talent. But Aaron Rodgers and Patrick Mahomes are great quarterbacks, and they've won Super Bowls. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, too. Josh has all the tools to be a great QB. He has to learn the game and develop the discipline that the great ones have. That's beside the point. Please stay on the narrative: The offensive line is terrible and it's Beane's fault.

I see it as a problem. Great quarterbacks win Super Bowls. Great players who play quarterback tend not to. Michael Vick is perhaps the best example. Cam Newton is another. When John Elway was a great player, he didn't win Super Bowls. When he learned to play quarterback, he did.

I'll say what I've said before, and get flamed for it. I think Allen is the problem. Yes, Allen may be the best weapon in the NFL, but if he is, it's because he runs around back there and sometimes takes off for big gains. Allen is not the best quarterback in the NFL. If he were the best quarterback in the NFL, I'd agree, he needs great protection. But if the Bills want to take advantage of his running, they need lineman who can block downfield, and that's what they have. The problem with the Bills is not that they can't protect Allen. The problem is that Allen doesn't do what great quarterbacks do, which is to release the ball quickly and accurately to the receiver who is open. That's what good QBs do. They have high completion percentages because they take and make the easy throws. Allen is not patient. He isn't willing to give up on a play and take the easy throw. He wants the chunk play every play. Good quarterbacks take the chunk play when it's there and take the easy throw when it isn't. Either his coaches are failing him, or he's failing himself. His future, if it's bright, is as a pocket passer, and he's wasting his precious time on the field by trying to hit home runs every play. The best quarterbacks take what's easy.

I agree. I guess it's the hole that makes this different. Look at Torrence and Bates. If Torrence had talent but didn't know what he was doing, they'd just play Bates there until Torrence developed. The problem at middle linebacker is that they don't have anyone in the position whose at least passable, or at least it seems that way. Under those circumstances, it seems to me you put the most talented guy out there and work with him. Maybe McDermott thinks Dodson isn't as bad as people here do. Maybe he thinks Dodson is Bates, and he can hold the fort until someone more talented (Bernard or Williams) raises his game. Actually, I doubt that, because his comment about being "concerned" didn't sound like the sort of thing he'd say if he had to play Bates at guard. He wouldn't say he was concerned.

Well, I just logged in to see if there was some news out of practice that Williams was taking reps in the middle. I found no news, but at least there was some speculation on the subject. Alpha, I gotta say I don't completely agree, because I think McD knows more about this than we do. At least in general. I've watched a lot of kids go from high school sports to college sports and a lot go from college to the pros, and there is one comment that is repeated regularly: It's a big jump. It's not the same game, and the talent and knowledge levels of the veterans is way above that of the rookies coming in. I think coaches will tell you that they see it all the time - the rookies on the team simply can't compete with the veterans on the team. Many of the rookies actually take a year or two before they can compete, and two or more years before they can hold their own. It's just in the nature of sports. And what goes along with that is what McDermott always says about his players - it's a competition, and the best player gets the playing time. The best player is not the player with the most potential; it's the player who plays the best. A couple of weeks ago I was arguing with people daily about why Elam isn't getting more playing time. One of the arguments was that he needs the experience on the field to get better. He's the most talented, so the Bills should let him grow into the position by playing him. That is not how McDermott does it, and I think McDermott is right. Among other reasons, he's right because the players on the team know who the best players are, and they want the best players on the field. They don't want to spill their guts every Sunday playing beside a guy who has potential. They want the best players out there. Every second string player on a team wants playing time so that he can grow and develop and prove himself, but the coach can't run the team that way. As for Williams, there are some arguments to be made to the contrary, but even then, I think we have to defer to the coaches. You and others make this argument they drafted him to play the middle and then declared at the start of camp that he would begin his career exclusively on the outside. Well, that declaration was made after they saw him in rookie camp and OTAs. I think they saw him and realized he just isn't ready yet. What did they see? I don't know, but it probably was that he didn't see the field nearly well enough, that he had trouble learning all of the new concepts they were throwing at him. Whatever, I'm pretty sure that they decided that he just needed time to grow. I trust that judgment. Now, things are a little different. I haven't seen the games, but the reports have been that he's held up pretty well when he's gotten time on the field. The game hasn't been too big or too fast for him. So, there's that. In the middle, on the other hand, no one has stepped up and clearly won the job. Dodson hasn't done it. Bernard had his rookie season to get used to the size and speed of the game, but before he got injured he wasn't opening eyes and showing people that he was realizing the potential Beane and McDermott had seen in him. And there are football games to be played. For me, the problem is not who's going to play middle linebacker in two weeks against the Jets. I want to know who's going to play middle linebacker in December. From what I've heard, only Williams has shown the kind of talent the Bills need at the position. In this situation, I think the need at the position may call for a different approach than usual. I would, as you suggest, start teaching him the job now and get him on the field in the middle in the next two preseason games. If it means having Milano or Hyde call the defense, fine. Just get him experience and force feed his growth. In fact, if it's necessary, put Milano in the middle and leave Williams outside. One way or the other, it's hard to ignore his talent when the other guys are struggling as much as they are.

I have the same reaction, but I think it's good film-watching technique. I think that's how a lot of the pros watch film, because that's how you catch all the detail in what's going on. He is a bit repetitive, but reps are what it's all about. For example, he needs the reps to point out the hand communication between Torrence and Brown. I never knew that's what they do, but it's critical to handling the rush. Each lineman needs to be looking at his man, but also needs to know where his teammate is so that they can hand off rushers and move on to the next guy. While that's going on, there's also footwork that is critical, as well as balance, and use of the hands. Turner likes showing off all the jargon he's learned, but jargon is what's used in any profession. So, yeah, it's a little repetitive, but it's by far the best detailed film study available to Bills fans anywhere.

If you watch the video, forget about Torrence, and watch McGovern and Edwards. They're just as good. Really solid interior line blocking, with Morse or Bates at center.

Yeah. I have higher expectations than most, because I trust that McDermott has figured this out. The objective for the season, as always, is to get through the first half of the season with 6 or 7 wins. By then, some of the younger players will be contributing in ways that we don't see yet. In the middle, it may be any combination of Dodson, Bernard, Williams, Milano, and Rapp. Plus, thee will be adjustments in the style of play to accommodate the talents of the various players. The question really becomes how good will the defensive unit be. The middle linebacker position may be the limiting factor in how good they will be; it's up to McDermott to see that that doesn't happen.

He didn't say he was a bust. All that's happened with Bernard is that he hasn't developed as they hoped, and then he got injured. When he's back, he may very well begin to take time from Dodson.

It is very unlike Beane, when faced with a hole in the lineup, to do NOTHING. Bernard wasn't a plan. Bernard was a shot in the dark, and they knew it. They traded up for Kincaid. They traded up for Elam. They didn't trade up for a linebacker. Yes, it's possible that everything they tried failed. I don't think that's very likely. I think it's much more likely that they allocated their resources thoughtfully and decided that inside linebacker was the position where they could best afford to sit tight.

Z I've been thinking about this. They weren't willing to pay Edmunds, David or Wagner. Thatsbpretty good evidence that the league in general values linebacker talent higher than the Bills do. They paid the going rate for Miller and for Poyer and for Oliver and for Milano, but they aren't willing to pay for a MLB. Seems pretty clear.

That's correct. But they regularly bring in players at least to compete. They didn't do that. And you can talk can talk about David and Wagner but like Edmunds, they weren't willing to pay for them. The Bills decided that they have as much talent at the position that they need. They had two years to plan for this. What we see is the result of their planning. What it says is that they don’t believe they need top talent at the position, because they did nothing to get top talent. They could have planned the cap to keep Edmunds or sign a good free agent. They could have used a premium pick to draft someone. They did none of that. I find it hard to coclude that the position is important to them and they just couldn't find anyone.

You've really got this backward. First, I don't know if the middle linebacker is the least important position on the defense. I don't know the ins and outs of what linebackers do. What I keep saying is that I look at what Beane and McDermott and try to deduce what they're thinking, because what they're thinking is about 1000 times more important than what I might speculate about. And when you look at what Beane and McDermott have done, it suggests that THEY think mlb is the least most important position. Why? I won't repeat it all, but if you look at all their player personnel moves over the last three years (when they knew they were losing Edmunds), they didn't do anything to bring in a quality replacement for him. They beefed up every other position on the defense, and they picked up a few guys to stick in the middle. They had a freak athlete playing the position and they let him go. Why you think that their allocation of resources is not an indication of what's important to them is baffling to me. You think they spent $100 million on Miller because they think the pass rush is unimportant. The Bills have a couple hundred million dollars and multiple first and second round picks invested in this defense, and they've spent NOTHING on a middle linebacker. You don't think that indicates something about what they think they need in the position?

You're absolutely right. The Bills could've paid Edmunds. The question is why didn't they? The answer is because THEY DON"T AGREE WITH YOU. You say they should have prioritized middle linebacker. They gave Miller the money they could have given to Edmunds because they prioritized edge rusher over mlb. They gave Jones and Settle and Ford and Oliver the money they could have given Edmunds because they prioritized DT over middle linebacker. They paid White. They paid Poyer and Rapp. They drafted Cook and Elam and Kincaid and Torrence because they prioritized running back and CB2 and receiving talent and offensive guard over mlb. They prioritize EVERYTHING over middle linebacker. They have reasons for what they do. You're free to disagree with them, but that doesn't mean you're right and they're wrong.

The problem with this is that you acknowledge and then ignore the wisdom in the post you quoted. The point of that post is that you can't be strong at every position. The cap and the draft assure that. So, you say, essentially, "I agree with that but offensive line is too important." If the Bills had neglected the edge over the past five seasons, you'd say, "I agree with that but rushing the passer is too important." "I agree with that but #2 corner is too important." The whole point of what you quoted is that teams have to balance needs and allocate talent as well as they can. The Bills allocated resources to the interior of the offensive line this year, and it should have a real impact on the team's performance. The reality is that players have to step and do their jobs. All the players, the best of them and the others. And, sure, we can all worry about Brown's back or Dion going down. We can worry about Miller's knee not holding up, Josh's elbow, Micah's neck, and Diggs's ego. We can worry about everything. Absent serious injuries, I think the Bills offense is going to be great this season.

Well, I'd love it if the Bills got more depth at tackle, but I doubt it's coming. There's a reason the Bills are choosing from 10 receivers for six or seven spots. There's a reason the Bills are deep at running back. And there's a reason why the Bills don't have great depth at offensive tackle. The reasons are the league is deep at receiver, the league is deep at running back, the league is not deep at offensive tackle. It's in the nature of the evolution of the game. The NFL has changed the rules, to make it easier for offensive linemen to block, and it's still really tough to keep the defenders off the QBs. The defenders are just too good. Every team wants edge rushers, because edge rushers can get to the QB. I've tinkered in my head about radical change, like making offensive holding legal. The league's gone part of the way there already, letting the linemen put their hands all over defenders, but it's still not enough. Journeymen tackles get eaten alive by edge rushers. So, yeah, get me all the depth you can at tackle. In fact, I think the Bills' starting tackles is one of the weaker positions on the team, so don't just get me depth; get me one or two better starters. Good luck with that - all the good tackles in the draft are gone before the spot where the Bills pick, and just about every quality tackle in the league gets paid by his team, so they don't hit the free agent market.

That Beane drafted Edmunds is now ancient history. What matters is what Beane's done in the past three years. Essentially what he did, it appears, is learn from the mistake he made when he drafted Edmunds. The simple fact is that for the last three seasons, Beane has known that he would have to make a decision about Edmunds. What he decided is that he wouldn't pay him his value in the market and would let him walk. He didn't make that decision because he couldn't afford Edmunds. He couldn't afford Edmunds because he'd already decided he wasn't going to spend a lot of money on a middle linebacker. How do we know that? Because he spent his money on every other position on the defense, that's how. He gave White his money. He gave Oliver his money. He paid Taron Johnson. He paid Poyer. He paid Von Miller all the money that he could have used to pay Edmunds. He paid Jones, he paid Settle, he paid Floyd, he paid Ford. He paid Milano. He paid every position EXCEPT middle linebacker. He drafted edge rushers. He drafted a corner back. The linebackers he drafted were almost after thoughts. Beane dedicated essentially no resources to linebacker. Now, maybe you think he just forgot the position and woke up this June and suddenly realized he didn't have a middle linebacker, but I don't. Beane's allocation of resources is evidence, clear evidence, of what he thinks about the importance of the position. There can be no other conclusion. Beane and McDermott decided they had enough talent to play linebacker this season, so Beane did nothing to upgrade the position. Whether that decision was good or bad, whether it will bite the Bills or not, can be know only as the season plays out. People can have opinions now. They have opinions about Shakier, about Elam, about Torrence, about Allen (not that one, the other one), but those are all just opinions. Five months from now we'll know better which opinions were correct and which were not. The same is true about middle linebacker. Today, anyone's opinion that the position is trainwreck is just that, an opinion. Beane and McDermott CHOSE the middle linebackers they have. They chose them for a reason. I'm prepared to wait and see how this is going to work.

Well, I think you're unwittingly making my argument for me. I choose to look at the question from the end of the last season. For the seven months since the season ended, Beane acquire no one new, except Williams, whom they did not expect to have any impact at the position this year. From that perspective, the Bills did nothing. If, however, I take the broader view that you suggest, that Beane's been working on the problem of replacing Edmunds for a couple of years, then it proves my point that Beane and McDermott don't think the position is very important to defense in comparison to other positions. Why? Because while Beame was drafting Elam to be the #2 corner and maybe White's eventual replacement, while he was signing Von Miller and Leonard Floyd and Poona Ford, while he was signing Taylor Rapp, while he was doing all of those things, he acquired only Bernard and Spector. What better evidence do you need they don't think the position is as important as other positions on the defense. Throw in, wherever you'd like, the fact that they weren't willing to pay Edmunds. Any way you choose to look at, what McDermott and Beane have done (or not done) to fortify the position tells us how important they think the position is. They're willing to let Dodson or Bernard or Spector run around in the middle and attack anything that comes their way. They have not been willing to spend resources, either cash or picks, to get the kind of player that many fans imagine is necessary in the middle.

Yes. As I've always said, no one is always right. Their judgment could be wrong, and it often is. They clearly blew it on Saffold, for example, and the Bills played last season weak at guard. But the fact that McDermott said he has concerns at middle linebacker after one preseason game doesn't mean that his judgment was wrong. It means his middle linebackers aren't playing well enough yet. He knew coming into the season he had work to do on the middle linebacker, because unlike every other position on the defense, his middle linebacker, whoever wins the job, will have had no experience playing the position in the NFL. Of course he's concerned. Let's see what happens over the next six weeks. If Beane makes a desperate acquisition to fill a hole in the middle, we'll know that they made a mistake in the middle. I'd be surprised if that happens.

I agree with this, to a point. But I think you're missing an important point, which is that one can argue with how he filled holes, but for the past few years Beane has always taken a shot at filling perceived holes. It's what I said earlier - he's consistently gone after offensive linemen where he sees a need, running backs, receivers, DBs. He had a need at backup safety, and he got Rapp. The point is, we can argue about the bodies he chooses to put in holes, but he always puts a body in it. The Bills haven't gone into any of the last three seasons without a hole in the lineup. Yes, the cap and the draft limit what he can do - every GM has more positions he'd like to upgrade than he has resources to do it. So, he makes choices. Sometimes, because he doesn't nave draft capital, he'll fill a hole in the line with a Feliciano or a Saffold. But the point is, he always does something. At middle linebacker, he did nothing. Eventually, he "added" Klein. From day one they admitted that Williams was not likely to be the solution, at least not this season. So, Beane did nothing. That can only mean that he McDermott believe that what they had was good enough. As always, people can argue about the judgment that they had what they needed, but I don't think it's arguable that Beane just ran out of money before he got to the middle linebacker. If they needed someone, he would have gotten someone. The Bills signed Leonard Floyd, Shane Ray, Taylor Rapp, and Poona Ford to a top-five defense, and Beane went after NO ONE to play the middle. That, in turn, leads to the conclusion that they don't think linebacker is a priority position. That doesn't mean that they'd say the position isn't important. All positions are important. But in relative terms, middle linebacker is the position that they think they fill with a good athlete, but not one where they need a great football player.

I've said this before: A lot of what I do when I think about the Bills is watch the decisions and try to figure out why they were made. In this case, it seems pretty obvious. Everyone could see that the Bills didn't have an up-and-coming star behind Edmunds. Put aside the fact that there isn't an up-and-coming star behind almost any starter. Beane has a history of filling needs. As much as people complain about his failures on the oline, there is no question that he has actively pursued upgrades there for several years. He addressed running back year after. He addressed the receiving corps every year. He addressed the dline. He addressed corner back. He goes and gets help at any position where there's a need. So, I asked myself why didn't Beane go get a linebacker, either in free agency or in the draft? The only logical reason is that he didn't think he needed one. Everyone is all upset that all the Bills have is Bernard and Dodson, Klein and Spector, and Williams. Well, does anyone actually think that Beane and McDermott didn't notice that's who had they had in the middle? Of course not. The reality is that they decided they had the position covered. Now, after one preseason game, people are nearly hysterical about how bad the middle linebackers are. Well, maybe we ought to wait until the Bills play some real games before we declare a disaster. I mean, were the middle linebackers using canes or walkers to get around against the Colts? Was the defense a failure, and was that failure directly attributable to the middle linebackers? I don't think so. In fact, the defense gave up two touchdowns. Hardly a crisis. As I said, I'm withholding my judgment on the position for weeks, if not a couple of months.

Who are the NFL's game-changing middle linebackers? Where is Ray Lewis, Brian Uhrlacher, even a Keuchle? Defenses don't feature that kind of player any longer.

This is true. It was noticeable last season. At least it looked that way to me, even though rushing yards allowed per attempt were essentially the same both seasons. These discussions about the MLB have me beginning to wonder if the MLB is the least important player on defense. Think about it. Pretty much everyone here cares more about the corners, the edge rushers, the interior defensive linemen. The biggest problem with the defense last season was that the Bills were missing their safeties. Edmunds, who is a sloppy tackler and who plays with very little aggressiveness, was the Bills leading tackler. Doesn't that suggest that a solid, good athlete who is an aggressive tackler should be able to fill the position (in the run game)? The middle linebacker is a guy who runs around in the middle and makes tackles because the guys all around the perimeter have forced the play to the inside. There are good middle linebackers in the league, by the aren't the game wreckers who used to play in the middle 20 or 30 years ago. I'm taking a wait and see approach on this. I'm just not convinced that there's as big a problem in the middle as many here (including me) have thought.

He said he wore short sleeves in any weather, because it help him feel where the tacklers were.

What a player!!!