Shaw66

Gunner As you can tell, I take a lot of cues from Belichick. What you say about a veteran quality backup makes sense. It's interesting that that hasn't been Belichick's approach.

Well, maybe I'm wrong about Flscco. Had forgotten he went to the Jets.

Well, I know it only takes one, but very few of those guys are signing with a team with an established starter. Keenum and Hoyer, probably. I'd guess that if Flacco cant start he will retire pretty quickly, for example.

I will go back to find your post. I don't know how likely it is to get a quality former starter. These guys have made so much money; I dont think as many of them will sign up for that role as once did. There aren't many Earl Morrals out there any more.

Good points. Who would you suggest?

As I said, I'm not a Winston fan. Backup quarterback is a seven-day a week job, and it's different from being a starter. Winston's shortcomings are characteristics that are most important in the backup role. I hear you. I'm not troubled by the backups the Bills have. I think Fromm is likely to be the backup, because he's a quick study and he's physically better than Barkley. This will be Barkley's last season in Buffalo.

Well, sure, if I'm a GM and I need a starter, I want Winston all day long. But that isn't the job I'm trying to fill. I'm looking for a guy who isn't going be a problem for the three or four weeks that I need him. I want a guy who understands the offense, who isn't a loose cannon, who will study and do what he's told every day, including for the eight or ten or seventeen weeks that he isn't playing. Winston isn't starting anywhere for a variety of reasons, but among them is that he doesn't fit that last sentence. He's in New Orleans because the Saints are shopping for a new starter, and Winston is a project who with the proper training could be the guy the Saints need. If I were Payton, I'd be thrilled that I got him. McDermott isn't looking for a starter; he's looking for a pure backup. As I said, the Bills want Allen to be a game manager with talent, and so far he's shown plenty of evidence that he can be that. When you're building your offense to be run by a game manager, you don't need a backup who has failed as a starter precisely because he wasn't a game manager. I'm not a Winston fan. I mean, he does amazing things sometimes, but you don't what you're going to get when he steps on the field. That's not the backup I want. Biscuit - McDermott and Beane know Newton very well, and they know Barkley very well. I seriously doubt that choosing Barkley over Newton was stupid. Of course, Newton probably wasn't an option, because Newton probably understood that he had slim chance and none to start in Buffalo.

There is no way in the world I'm taking Winston over Barkley as the backup. No way. The guy is an interception machine - was in college and is in the pros. My backup has to play within the system and minimize mistakes. Barkley's career numbers are worse, but that isn't who he is now. Now he is a system quarterback, a game manager. And I don't think the Bills should go looking for competition for Allen, not this year. Next year, maybe. Gunner says there were better veteran choices out there than Barkley. Maybe, but not many. And particularly this year, when the backup is going to be getting more or less no quality reps in camp and none in preseason games, having the same backup the Bills had last season is a big advantage. Plus, I think Fromm will be the backup.

Yeah. Put another way, only about 15 teams have a guy starting at QB whom fans like and think is ready to win. If half the teams don't have a quality starter, why would anyone think that there are quality backups to be had? People here have said Fitz would be a great backup. Sure. He'd be such a good backup he's a starter. Does anyone think Chad Henne or Matt Moore is running the Chiefs' offense in any way that even remotely resembles how Mahomes runs it? How about CJ Beathard and Nick Mullens backing up Garoppolo? If I'm a Saints fan, I don't even get a lot of comfort out Taysom Hill and Jameis Winston. As Big Hands points out, this is a message board problem, not a real world problem.

Well, I don't pay a lot of attention about other teams' moves, but if Bryant can play, he's perfect for Jackson.

I agree. He's one of those guys who, although he can't play edge or safety, has characteristics of both. He's the kind of athlete McDermott likes to put on the field - a hitter with speed and quickness to cover a lot of space and to close on ball carriers. I thought we were going to see a lot of him as last season progressed, but then he got hurt. He's been through a camp, and if he did his homework during the season, I think he will be a contributor this season.

Backup anything can never be a "glaring hole." My cousin used to tell me that it isn't just injuries that matter, but injuries at which position at which point in the season. Whether you will need to call on your backup and in what games is critical, and most starters survive the season without major injuries. So I'm not calling backup a glaring weakness. Beyond that, the Bills run on systems; they don't count on stars. In particular, if you read one of any of fifty threads about Allen here, people aren't counting on him being a star. They're counting on him being an above average guy who wins games by getting the ball to the best overall collection of skill players the Bills have had in a couple decades, behind a veteran, experienced line playing its second season together. In other words, if Allen gets hurt, no one is expecting that the Bills will be losing an 800-yard rusher or a 5,000-yard passer. Even 4,000 yards. Point being that if the Bills' offense is what McDermott and Daboll want it to be, a good, smart game manager should be able to fill in for a few weeks without a huge drop off in production. Matt Barkley hasn't lit the world on fire, but he knows the system inside and out, he has maturity, and he has the respect of the team. Fromm is smart and the quintessential game manager - he played and won a lot of big games in college, executing a high-powered offense. Even Webb has promise. I haven't paid much attention to him, but the guy was a big-time recruit, split time with Baker Mayfield at Texas Tech, started at Texas Tech but lost the job to Mahomes, and had an excellent senior season at California. The guy can play, and if you recall, he led the big off-season workout when Allen and all the receivers got together. If you're talking proven backup, sure, the Bills don't have one. Few teams do. But given that the Bills aren't looking for Allen to be All-Pro this season (they'd love it, of course, but the Bills need that much from him to win), and given the history and nature of the potential backups, I'm not losing any sleep.

I think it's going to be no news, no news, no news, final cuts. No news, pregame press conference. Lift off.

That's interesting. I hadn't heard that. Not every high motor guy is likable.

Fair enough. We'll know in the next few months. If the Bills extend his contract, we will know when we see the contract. If they exercise the fifth-year option, it will probably mean White wants top dollar and the Bills were reluctant to give it to him.

Oh, yeah, I agree with that, too. Oh they'll cut someone else. On a talent-rich roster, you can afford the luxury of a Hogan. On a talent-poor roster, he can make it because he's as good as anyone else they have. But they're too talent-starved to keep him over better talent.

Yes, he does do that. It is consistent. He builds his defensive philosophy on a the shut-down corner, because that gives him ultimate flexibility with the other 10 players. I don't think McDermott has the same philosophy. His philosophy is up-the-field strength. His first year, his philosophy was signaled by trading Gilmore for Hyde and Poyer. His philosophy is signaled by Keuchly and Edmunds. I agree the defensive philosophies are different. What we'll see as they deal with contracts for White, Edmunds, and Allen, is whether Beane subscribes to the six-big-contracts theory or Belichick's two-or-three-stars-and-spread-the-rest-of-the-money-around theory.

I was interested in Roberts comments. What he said about Roberts is what I saw last season, and it's what makes think they won't cut him because McKenzie is more versatile. Roberts has excellent hands, but what makes him special is how he sees the field and sets up his returns. He really does look like he can can go all the way on every return. You can see that he feels it somehow.

6-7 big contracts was Whaley's philosophy. He said so when they extended Cordy Glenn. Three on offense, three on defense. And yes, many teams do that, but not all. It is definitely not Belichick's philosophy. He never has six big contracts. I also think it is not Beane's philosophy, but we will see.

I am not "absolutely convinced," of my view, particularly when I hear your view. My guess is that he will stay with the Bills but he will not reset the market in the way that mean. That is, I think White will take a deal that is some measure team-friendly and will not become the unquestionable highest or second highest paid corner.

I agree that he isn't a star who commands attention, but on a team that doesn't seem to have any stars with the kind of work ethic that leads, anyone who does it the right way helps. If the Jets win 11 games this season, no one is going to say Hogan turned the team around, but he is going to be at least one guy who every day will show his teammates what it means to be a professional. One is better than none, two is better one. McDermott obviously values DiMarco, Lee Smith and Star for exactly this reason.

You may be right. My opinion is that if you asked McBeane, they would not agree with you, because Beane's cap management strategy can't afford three max contracts at what are three of the four highest paid positions (edge being the fourth). I think Beane has to stretch his system too much to write three of those contracts. I suspect that if you could have a completely frank conversation with Belichick and Brady, they would tell you that they talked about the fact that Revis got a max contract and Brady didn't. I believe Brady accepted that fact because he knew he was going to get very good money for a very long time, and it was worth it to him to let Revis get great money for a short time in order to have the defense that would help Brady win. Beane doesn't have that luxury with White, because Beane doesn't know yet whether Josh is the guy he needs for the long-term, and he doesn't know if Josh will give the Bills the kind of discount that will allow Beane the luxury of spending big on a corner. If I'm right about a lot of things, in a few years Josh will be a star and he will work for millions less than he could get in the open market. That's when Beane will be able to afford to pay top dollar for the best corner back. As I said before, I think if White insists on the best money, Beane will let him walk just like McDermott let Gilmore work. When the future is set, when the right QB and the right MLB are in place with their contracts, that's when Beane will know if he can write really big checks for another position. I expect Beane will have the discipline to insist on a team-friendly deal with White.

I'm a Hogan fan. A great addition for the Jets, because he will bring some stability and leadership to a situation that seems almost like chaos. He will be more important in the locker room than on the field. He isn't a guy who can help carry the team with big-time plays - he's only a role player in an offensive scheme, but he will teach the team something about commitment and excellence.

I've been up front about it for more than a year: I think we are watching the construction of the next great team in NFL history, the team to beat for ten years or more. I think that's what we're seeing for one primary reason: McDermott is selling something that works to build teams, and he's good at getting players to buy it. There are, in my opinion, three important contracts to get done: Allen, Edmunds, and Beane. Lock in those three, and big things are coming. Edit: And as an aside, I live in Connecticut and have been a long-time UConn basketball fan. Dan Hurley seems like he studied at the same leadership school with McDermott. His message is the same, guys are buying it the same. In the past two weeks he signed two big-time recruits for 2021, high school kids who talked about work ethic, about team, and about winning together. It's nice to have coaches of my two teams succeeding like that.

I've really lost interest in analyzing deals and contracts, so I don't have anything to add about the details that Tre might expect. I will, however, say this: I may be wrong, but it seems pretty clear to me that the Bills' approach to cap management is like Belichick's approach: except for QB (and maybe MLB), they don't think it's worth it to pay the top of the pay scale to any player. I think you see it in all the re-signings the Bills do, most particularly and most recently Dawkins. What did so many posters here say about it? A "team friendly" deal. Of course, we haven't seen the big-ticket guys come up yet - Tre, Josh and Tremaine, but over and over what we've seen is "team friendly" deals. I think the Bills are saying this to their players: "You know how we work and how we are building. We are all about team, and no player is bigger than the team. We are willing to pay you very well, but we are not willing to pay you so much that it affects our ability to make the team as good as it possibly can be. That means that we will not pay you as much as you probably can get someplace else. (In the case of Tre, than he certainly can get someplace else.) We hope you will accept less than you can get someplace else because what you want more than anything else is to be part of a top-notch winning organization, and part of being part of a winning organization is sharing the money with the team." I'm quite confident that's what the Bills are saying and will be saying to players. I think that's what the Pats said to Brady all those years that he took less than he could get in the open market. It started way back, with Lawyer Milloy, and it was obvious when they let Vinatieri go - they had a price they were willing to pay and would not move off it, even though everyone knew he was the best kicker in the game. Shut-down corner is the only position they seem to make an exception for, and I'm sure there were years they would have made the exception for Brady if he had demanded it. For Beane and McDermott, if I had to guess, I'd say that QB and MLB are the only positions where they will be willing to pay top dollar to keep someone. I have been prepared for a year or more to lose White unless he's willing to give the Bills a discount. As painful as it would be to see him go, McBeane view it differently. Their view is that White's replacement, although clearly not as good as White, will be offset by the better talent the Bills will have at other positions by virtue of having the cap room to sign that talent. Plus, their view is that all the players have to see that part of what is expected from them is that the best players share the money with everyone else. All the players have to see that no player is more important than the team. By consistently sending that message to the players, and by making that message clear around the league, increasingly the Bills will be able to sign guys who are completely dedicated to the team concept that McDermott is selling. Guys will know that McBeane are so committed to the whole team that they're willing to let a guy as talented as White (and Gilmore before him) walk. And you know what? I think we're going to see both Allen and Edmunds give the discount. I think one of the primary reasons McBeane wanted both those guys because of their commitment to winning as a team, because their ultimate objective wasn't to be the best individually or the highest paid, but to win. I wouldn't be surprised if Allen and Edmunds haven't talked about it already - they may already have committed to each other that they will take team friendly deals so that they can be part of what's happening in Buffalo. I think when McBeane took those two guys they had a high level of confidence that they would have the right answer to the ultimate question: "Where would you rather be than right here, right now?" I have no idea whether White will stay or go, but if he stays, I think he will have decided to leave money on the table.