Shaw66

Oh, yeah, I don't disagree with that. My only point was that team A can have more talent than team B without having more elite players. I think in the case of KC, they have both, because they have a lot more elite or near-elite players. Bills can't match the Chiefs on high-end talent, like Mahomes, Hill, Kelce, Jones, Clark, Mathieu. That's six special playmakers. I don't think you need six to be great, but that's a lot of talent to overcome if you don't have comparable playmakers. Even if you call Mahomes-Allen a push and Hill-Diggs a push, Bills don't put guys on the field who are special like the other four.

I would have said it differently. Bills are the most solid across their starting 22-35, Chiefs have more collective talent. They also probably have more elite players, but the true measure is not most elite players, it's most collective talent.

This is a good question, and I don't have a good answer for me. To be honest, I think being sold on the process was, well, a process. For me, there wasn't an "ah, ha!" moment. At his first press conference, I was impressed by how clear, direct, and committed he was. I liked that. There was no BS, no predictions, just "we're going to get to work." But I'd heard a lot of first press conferences, and I remember thinking that no matter how impressive he may seem, the proof is very much in the pudding. For me, the second big event was when Beane was hired. I watched his first press conference, and read a little about him and McDermott. It was clear that there was coordination here, two guys on exactly the same page about where they're going. That first year we began to hear about their principles - 24-7-365, continuous improvement, love of competition, commitment to team and to family. Then Watkins and Dareus were gone, and it was clear that they meant what they said - they were looking for a certain kind of guy. I could see the process at work. That first year, I could hear some of the players mouthing McDermott's mantras. I liked it, but it seemed a little hokey, like they were buying into a cult. The 2018 draft was perhaps when I first was sold on what was going on. McBeane just had this air of certainty about them - it was clear that they knew what they wanted to do, and they knew how to do it. They explained how they were building, how they were going to keep players so that year after year they knew more about how the team worked together, so that there would be continuous improvement. It didn't hurt, of course, that a few months later Josh Allen jumped over a linebacker for a first down - that was the process at work. In fact, it was the 2018 season that I become sold. In part, I could hear it in Allen - Allen was a natural practitioner of the process. Allen just wanted to get better, and he loved his teammates. It wasn't a cult. What McBeane understood was that there were guys out there who just lived the process - that's who they were. McDermott wasn't going to teach the process; McBeane just were going to continue to acquire guys who lived the process. When they had a team full of process guys, they would take off. A defining moment for me was when Kyle retired. Kyle is a process guy. It came to him naturally. The Bills filmed and showed the team meeting where McDermott introduced Kyle and Kyle announced he was retiring. I think it was in that introduction that McDermott said that he first saw Kyle at a Pro Bowl practice, and he stood out among all the players there. He stood out because of his commitment and his work ethic. Kyle was the one guy in Buffalo when McDermott arrived whom he knew he could build around. The fact that McDermott made a team event out of the retirement, that he elevated Kyle as the example of what a Buffalo Bill should be, finally got me to see the process.

I see. Thanks.

I don't understand this stuff very well, but why would moving cap hit our of 2021 into later years help in extending these two guys? The extensions will primarily hit in those later years two. I would think that if you're working on extending them, you'd want MORE room in the later years, rather than restructuring other guys so you have less room. It seems to me it must mean that there is an acquisition coming that they need cap room for this season.

Nicely done

I'm in Connecticut. I really haven't focused on the schedule much. I have a friend who is not a Bills fan but who goes to one Bills road game with me every year. It's been great. Pre-pandemic, we had gone to games for 10 straight years. Some big losses - absolutely crushed in Green Bay, Fitz throws a couple of big INTs against the Giants, and some big wins - overtime against the Bears, Tyrod beats the Titans, Bills take over the stadium in Atlanta. So the other day I bought two tickets to the Chiefs game on StubHub. I hadn't really thought about it until then. We're going to be sitting in the stadium while the whole country is watching. It will be nuts.

Of the subject, but - I agree about the whole league watching, at least assuming neither team has had a meltdown. And it goes back to that thread about would you trade Allen for Mahomes. Some of us, including me, said that until someone else emerges to compete with them, Mahomes and Allen look like the premier QBs of the coming era. Everyone will be interested in that game because of the team matchup AND the QB matchup. It will be like the Pats vs. Colts matchups back in the middle of the drought.

I'm not a great Xs and Os guy, but I can't imagine going 5-2-4 in the modern game. That's effectively committing five identified players to the pass rush (yes, you can drop a DE in coverage, but that isn't very effective). Much better to go 4-2-5, which gives you quality pass protectors in the back seven and you can blitz a linebacker, corner or safety if you want to rush five. McDermott always has said that he wants to generate pressure with his front four. I don't see him compromising by going to a front five. He wants push in the middle from a one-tech guy, and he wants this three-tech and his edge guys to win their one-on-one battles.

I don't pay a lot of attention to capology and all of these opportunities. It makes my head hurt. But I have a few comments. First, I didn't realize the Bills had so many opportunities to generate cap space. Dawkins, Poyer, Hughes are significant names. Second, in terms of acquisitions, I continue to trust Beane when he says free agency is to fill holes, not to acquire talent. Very hard to imagine he'd spend major cap space to sign a Bosa when Beane's just spent two picks on the edge. Beane has made his bet on talent on the edge. By the way, I find I keep wondering what's going to happen with Hughes. It's a crowded room, and the Bills have Epenesa and the two rookies, Hughes is nearing the end and he offers an opportunity to create cap room. The Patriots' way was to let talent go too early rather than keep it too long, and I'm guessing that's how McBeane think, too. As much as I think McDermott likes Jerry, he may be at risk. Finally, I know it's been discussed, but I think the biggest contract issue (including the biggest contract) is whether Allen will decide to take a leadership role and give the Bills a discount. If Allen takes less than the last dollar, and takes it in a way that is clear and understandable to the other players, it gives Beane an opportunity to work on Edmunds in the same way, and on others, too. So, in my mind, the best cap news of the summer could be Allen inking a team-friendly deal.

Got it. Makes sense. It's interesting to me how it's so different from baseball. If you're old enough and you've been a fan, you actually can have a reasonable argument about Willie Mays vs. Mike Trout. There still are differences between eras, but those differences don't make the discussion pointless. There's very little to be said about Graham vs. Brady.

Exactly. Brady or Peyton with their skills, transplanted into 1953, outplay Graham. Graham with his skills transplanted into 2010, who knows? I just don't think you can be in the GOAT discussion unless you've done the things the best have done. Otto Graham never had the opportunity to do those things, so I don't see how he can be in the discussion. I mean, in my flag football league in college, I played with the greatest QB I've ever seen. After college he went to medical school. Is he in the GOAT discussion? Of course not. Unless you do what the best have done, it doesn't matter.

Montana! There's a great suggestion. Even he played in the relative dark ages, but his era was the beginning of modern football. The west coast offense was the beginning. So, yeah, if we're drinking beers and arguing the GOAT, I'd listen to arguments about Montana.

Actually, I don't agree. I think that's a valid argument in baseball, because the game is fundamentally unchanged. It's still a pitcher throwing the ball and a batter trying to hit. On the other hand, football, and to a lesser extent basketball, keep evolving, and the game keeps asking players to do more and more. I mentioned Bart Starr and Otto Graham. There's no question in my mind that Peyton, Brady, Mahomes, and Allen could outplay either of them, if you transported them back to those earlier eras. For a modern QB, reading those defenses would be like reading Dick, Jane, and Sally. Could Otto Graham do what Brady does? Well, I suppose, maybe, but there's absolutely no way to know. Just because Otto Graham was smart doesn't mean we can assume it and declare him to be in the GOAT discussion. Graham was the greatest of his era, no doubt, but because he never did on the field the kinds of things Peyton and Brady did, he isn't in the GOAT discussion. Just my opinion.

Of course. No question. In my mind, Peyton is the only other guy in the conversation, because Peyton if the only guy other than Brady who was so good he became a true coach on the field. Ariens admits that by late last season they started letting Brady be an active participant in game planning and play calling. After the season, Ariens said something, and Belichick actually agreed in some way, that it was amazing that Brady's first team didn't let him have more responsibility. The same thing happened with Peyton in his first season in Denver. They began to let Peyton install plays that hadn't been part of Denver's offense, simply because Peyton wanted them and knew they would work. Sure, Bart Starr and Otto Graham probably contributed in those ways, but that was in an era when the offenses and defenses were much less complicated. Quarterbacking is advanced way beyond that level now. Anyone who wants to be in the GQBOAT discussion now has to become that kind of player. Mahomes and Allen have a long way to go.

Exactly.

Thanks. This is good. And I agree, Brady's longevity does mean something, but it's not how I think of the GOAT. Brady's longevity makes him the most remarkable QB of all time, because he has played at the highest level for an unusually long time, but I think the GOAT should be determined simply in terms of who was the best at the position for a sustained period. And that's why I think Mahomes or Allen could become the GOAT. I think there's a really good chance that one or both of them will put up stats that will pass Brady, and one or even both could have substantial post-season success, like, say, four rings. If that happens, then in my mind the guy who does that is the GOAT over Brady, because there is absolutely no question that both Allen and Mahomes already are better than Brady in terms of pure play-making. Brady never could scramble like either one of the, never could have the running success that either has had. Brady doesn't have an arm that can compare with either of them.

I don't agree with this. It's possible, it's actually probable, that neither will win as many Super Bowls as Brady, but Super Bowls aren't the best measure of excellence in quarterbacking. Stats aren't, either, but Brady's career stats don't make him the career GOAT. He's now piling up numbers because of longevity, but that doesn't make him the GOAT. His stats are similar to Peyton's and Brees's. In terms of overall quarterbacking, including stats, on-field leadership, reading defenses and adjusting, etc., etc., Brady hasn't gotten substantially better in the last 10 years. He's just had sustained excellence. But he wasn't any better at those things in his prime than Peyton was. No one was declaring, without an argument, that Brady was the GOAT when he was going to head-to-head with Peyton all those years. The point is, the only thing that makes Brady stand out from a few other guys is the Super Bowl rings, and in a serious discussion, I'm not willing to call him the GOAT just because he happened to play for the greatest head coach of all time. For example, make Peyton the Pats' QB over the same time, at the same age that Brady was over those years, and I would bet that Peyton would have won as many rings, maybe more. Brady was outstanding in some of those Super Bowl runs, late-game heroics and all, but Peyton was every bit as good. In two fewer seasons, Peyton had six more game-winning drives. So, given that it's easier to pile up passing stats now than 20 years ago, I wouldn't say that Mahomes and/or Allen can't pass Brady in many, even all, the important passing stats. I wouldn't say that neither will surpass Brady in game-winning drives (by the way, Mahomes has 7, Allen has 11). Super Bowl rings seems unlikely, of course, but if Reid coaches for 15 more years, or if McDermott rises to Belichick-like excellence, even six rings is possible for either of them. I'm not willing to say, for example, that one of them couldn't have a run of three Super Bowl wins in a five- or six-year stretch. As I've said and it seems, most people agree, Mahomes and Allen stand alone as the only guys anyone is willing to declare today as truly exceptional quarterbacking talents. Yes, in a year or two or three we might be talking about Herbert, Burrow, Lawrence, or someone else in those terms, but right now those guys are still in the speculation category. Mahomes and Allen already have done enough on the field to make pretty much everyone who's watching and thinking agree that 15 more years of that kind of excellence will make them both first ballot Hall of Famers and could put them in the GOAT discussion. Again, we're way ahead of ourselves, but it's fun to dream about it.

Now we're REALLY getting ahead of ourselves! But in fact, that is the kind of greatness I think Mahomes and Allen can achieve.

I can't say that I was worrying about the drive home (6.5 hours for me), and I'm nowhere near 272 games attended, but it was the worst NFL game I can remember. One measure of how bad that game is that just about the best offensive play of the game was a beautiful 30-yard pass to the Browns' tight end, Robert Royal. He dropped it. It was also the game when they intended to present Ralph with his Hall of Fame ring at halftime, but the fans already were angry about how bad the team was before the game. The first half was so bad, the Bills postponed the presentation ceremony our of fear that the booing would be too embarrassing. I think this is incorrect. I mean, it's incorrect to say that he had an NFL career.

Right. The fans might be all over the place, and some would take Burrow or Herbert second. Some would take Trevor Lawrence. But the GMs know better. The difference between Allen and everyone else, except Mahomes, is that Allen has consistently done things on the field that no one else does. Herbert looked like a very good QB, maybe even excellent. You could say that about Burrow, too. Herbert made some outstanding throws, throws like Allen and no one else makes. But only Mahomes and Allen to date have shown packages of skills that the experts see as transcendent. Allen makes power throws all over the field that no one else can - bullets that pass through tight, closing windows. Mahomes is nearly as good at it, maybe better on the shorter throws. Mahomes is amazingly elusive, Allen shakes off big tacklers like very few QBs ever have. Both make big plays when all seems helpless, like on third and 22. So, sure, some fan may think Burrow will be better, or Herbert, and that fan may even turn out to be correct. However, based on what we've seen from the field, it's hard at this time to see any reason to project anyone to be better than Mahomes and Allen. And, since that's my opinion about the two and the rest, I continue to find it historically amazing that the Bills traded the pick for Mahomes and then drafted Allen the following year.

Couple of thoughts about this: Rodgers. Rodgers has been amazing, but as we began to hear about five years ago and we continue to have confirmed, Rodgers is something of a jerk. Apparently not all of his teammates like him. In my mind, that gives Mahomes and Allen (both of whom are well-liked an edge over Rodgers. Ben. I often say Allen will be something like Ben when he gets older. Something like Ben, but better. What I mean by that is that in his younger years, Ben was pretty mobile. He didn't run like Allen, but he was at least a threat. He'd do 100-200 yards a year. As he got older, he stopped running very much. Allen won't run in his later years either - something will have slowed him down. But Ben has a remarkable ability to slide in the pocket, to slip tackles, and to shake off arm tackles, so he his able to buy time in the pocket much better than, say, Brady. Ben can do that because he has good awareness, good feet, and most importantly, good size and strength. Ben also has the arm strength to make a lot of quick and accurate throws late. Allen already has shown all of that. I think when Allen is in his thirties he will have an edge over most QBs because he will be able to buy time in the pocket and deliver the ball with that great arm of his. And to bring that back to the Mahomes discussion, I think that will make Allen better than Mahomes 10 years from now. Allen's height and size will give him an advantage over Mahomes when they're both forced to stay in the pocket more in their later years. Being big has extended Ben's career, and it was a serious advantage for Peyton, too. Russell Wilson continues to be able to scramble and be effective, but I don't think either Allen or Mahomes has the kind of scrambling ability that has allowed Wilson to do it effectively at age 32. And I think Wilson's scrambling days are numbered. And just because I think a mid-30s Allen will have some of the good characteristics of a mid-30s Roethlisberger doesn't mean that the Bills will look like the Steelers and not the Patriots. There's no reason to believe that the whole organization will look like the Steelers just because Allen may look like Ben.

These are good.

Yeah, if you're talking about just worst, gut-wrenching play, without regard to whether anyone screwed up, you're right. I was there, too. Would have been 17-3 against whom - the Chiefs? I think they were undefeated at the time. I was also in the stadium for the Ravens playoff game this year. It's not exactly the same play - Lamar Jackson blew it - but Taron Johnson's pick six was the total opposite in terms of emotional impact. It gave the Bills the lead that a Tuel touchdown pass would have given the Bills against the Chiefs. I guess things even out.

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