Shaw66

I don't understand this stuff very well, but why would moving cap hit our of 2021 into later years help in extending these two guys? The extensions will primarily hit in those later years two. I would think that if you're working on extending them, you'd want MORE room in the later years, rather than restructuring other guys so you have less room. It seems to me it must mean that there is an acquisition coming that they need cap room for this season.

Nicely done

I'm in Connecticut. I really haven't focused on the schedule much. I have a friend who is not a Bills fan but who goes to one Bills road game with me every year. It's been great. Pre-pandemic, we had gone to games for 10 straight years. Some big losses - absolutely crushed in Green Bay, Fitz throws a couple of big INTs against the Giants, and some big wins - overtime against the Bears, Tyrod beats the Titans, Bills take over the stadium in Atlanta. So the other day I bought two tickets to the Chiefs game on StubHub. I hadn't really thought about it until then. We're going to be sitting in the stadium while the whole country is watching. It will be nuts.

Of the subject, but - I agree about the whole league watching, at least assuming neither team has had a meltdown. And it goes back to that thread about would you trade Allen for Mahomes. Some of us, including me, said that until someone else emerges to compete with them, Mahomes and Allen look like the premier QBs of the coming era. Everyone will be interested in that game because of the team matchup AND the QB matchup. It will be like the Pats vs. Colts matchups back in the middle of the drought.

I'm not a great Xs and Os guy, but I can't imagine going 5-2-4 in the modern game. That's effectively committing five identified players to the pass rush (yes, you can drop a DE in coverage, but that isn't very effective). Much better to go 4-2-5, which gives you quality pass protectors in the back seven and you can blitz a linebacker, corner or safety if you want to rush five. McDermott always has said that he wants to generate pressure with his front four. I don't see him compromising by going to a front five. He wants push in the middle from a one-tech guy, and he wants this three-tech and his edge guys to win their one-on-one battles.

I don't pay a lot of attention to capology and all of these opportunities. It makes my head hurt. But I have a few comments. First, I didn't realize the Bills had so many opportunities to generate cap space. Dawkins, Poyer, Hughes are significant names. Second, in terms of acquisitions, I continue to trust Beane when he says free agency is to fill holes, not to acquire talent. Very hard to imagine he'd spend major cap space to sign a Bosa when Beane's just spent two picks on the edge. Beane has made his bet on talent on the edge. By the way, I find I keep wondering what's going to happen with Hughes. It's a crowded room, and the Bills have Epenesa and the two rookies, Hughes is nearing the end and he offers an opportunity to create cap room. The Patriots' way was to let talent go too early rather than keep it too long, and I'm guessing that's how McBeane think, too. As much as I think McDermott likes Jerry, he may be at risk. Finally, I know it's been discussed, but I think the biggest contract issue (including the biggest contract) is whether Allen will decide to take a leadership role and give the Bills a discount. If Allen takes less than the last dollar, and takes it in a way that is clear and understandable to the other players, it gives Beane an opportunity to work on Edmunds in the same way, and on others, too. So, in my mind, the best cap news of the summer could be Allen inking a team-friendly deal.

Got it. Makes sense. It's interesting to me how it's so different from baseball. If you're old enough and you've been a fan, you actually can have a reasonable argument about Willie Mays vs. Mike Trout. There still are differences between eras, but those differences don't make the discussion pointless. There's very little to be said about Graham vs. Brady.

Exactly. Brady or Peyton with their skills, transplanted into 1953, outplay Graham. Graham with his skills transplanted into 2010, who knows? I just don't think you can be in the GOAT discussion unless you've done the things the best have done. Otto Graham never had the opportunity to do those things, so I don't see how he can be in the discussion. I mean, in my flag football league in college, I played with the greatest QB I've ever seen. After college he went to medical school. Is he in the GOAT discussion? Of course not. Unless you do what the best have done, it doesn't matter.

Montana! There's a great suggestion. Even he played in the relative dark ages, but his era was the beginning of modern football. The west coast offense was the beginning. So, yeah, if we're drinking beers and arguing the GOAT, I'd listen to arguments about Montana.

Actually, I don't agree. I think that's a valid argument in baseball, because the game is fundamentally unchanged. It's still a pitcher throwing the ball and a batter trying to hit. On the other hand, football, and to a lesser extent basketball, keep evolving, and the game keeps asking players to do more and more. I mentioned Bart Starr and Otto Graham. There's no question in my mind that Peyton, Brady, Mahomes, and Allen could outplay either of them, if you transported them back to those earlier eras. For a modern QB, reading those defenses would be like reading Dick, Jane, and Sally. Could Otto Graham do what Brady does? Well, I suppose, maybe, but there's absolutely no way to know. Just because Otto Graham was smart doesn't mean we can assume it and declare him to be in the GOAT discussion. Graham was the greatest of his era, no doubt, but because he never did on the field the kinds of things Peyton and Brady did, he isn't in the GOAT discussion. Just my opinion.

Of course. No question. In my mind, Peyton is the only other guy in the conversation, because Peyton if the only guy other than Brady who was so good he became a true coach on the field. Ariens admits that by late last season they started letting Brady be an active participant in game planning and play calling. After the season, Ariens said something, and Belichick actually agreed in some way, that it was amazing that Brady's first team didn't let him have more responsibility. The same thing happened with Peyton in his first season in Denver. They began to let Peyton install plays that hadn't been part of Denver's offense, simply because Peyton wanted them and knew they would work. Sure, Bart Starr and Otto Graham probably contributed in those ways, but that was in an era when the offenses and defenses were much less complicated. Quarterbacking is advanced way beyond that level now. Anyone who wants to be in the GQBOAT discussion now has to become that kind of player. Mahomes and Allen have a long way to go.

Exactly.

Thanks. This is good. And I agree, Brady's longevity does mean something, but it's not how I think of the GOAT. Brady's longevity makes him the most remarkable QB of all time, because he has played at the highest level for an unusually long time, but I think the GOAT should be determined simply in terms of who was the best at the position for a sustained period. And that's why I think Mahomes or Allen could become the GOAT. I think there's a really good chance that one or both of them will put up stats that will pass Brady, and one or even both could have substantial post-season success, like, say, four rings. If that happens, then in my mind the guy who does that is the GOAT over Brady, because there is absolutely no question that both Allen and Mahomes already are better than Brady in terms of pure play-making. Brady never could scramble like either one of the, never could have the running success that either has had. Brady doesn't have an arm that can compare with either of them.

I don't agree with this. It's possible, it's actually probable, that neither will win as many Super Bowls as Brady, but Super Bowls aren't the best measure of excellence in quarterbacking. Stats aren't, either, but Brady's career stats don't make him the career GOAT. He's now piling up numbers because of longevity, but that doesn't make him the GOAT. His stats are similar to Peyton's and Brees's. In terms of overall quarterbacking, including stats, on-field leadership, reading defenses and adjusting, etc., etc., Brady hasn't gotten substantially better in the last 10 years. He's just had sustained excellence. But he wasn't any better at those things in his prime than Peyton was. No one was declaring, without an argument, that Brady was the GOAT when he was going to head-to-head with Peyton all those years. The point is, the only thing that makes Brady stand out from a few other guys is the Super Bowl rings, and in a serious discussion, I'm not willing to call him the GOAT just because he happened to play for the greatest head coach of all time. For example, make Peyton the Pats' QB over the same time, at the same age that Brady was over those years, and I would bet that Peyton would have won as many rings, maybe more. Brady was outstanding in some of those Super Bowl runs, late-game heroics and all, but Peyton was every bit as good. In two fewer seasons, Peyton had six more game-winning drives. So, given that it's easier to pile up passing stats now than 20 years ago, I wouldn't say that Mahomes and/or Allen can't pass Brady in many, even all, the important passing stats. I wouldn't say that neither will surpass Brady in game-winning drives (by the way, Mahomes has 7, Allen has 11). Super Bowl rings seems unlikely, of course, but if Reid coaches for 15 more years, or if McDermott rises to Belichick-like excellence, even six rings is possible for either of them. I'm not willing to say, for example, that one of them couldn't have a run of three Super Bowl wins in a five- or six-year stretch. As I've said and it seems, most people agree, Mahomes and Allen stand alone as the only guys anyone is willing to declare today as truly exceptional quarterbacking talents. Yes, in a year or two or three we might be talking about Herbert, Burrow, Lawrence, or someone else in those terms, but right now those guys are still in the speculation category. Mahomes and Allen already have done enough on the field to make pretty much everyone who's watching and thinking agree that 15 more years of that kind of excellence will make them both first ballot Hall of Famers and could put them in the GOAT discussion. Again, we're way ahead of ourselves, but it's fun to dream about it.

Now we're REALLY getting ahead of ourselves! But in fact, that is the kind of greatness I think Mahomes and Allen can achieve.

I can't say that I was worrying about the drive home (6.5 hours for me), and I'm nowhere near 272 games attended, but it was the worst NFL game I can remember. One measure of how bad that game is that just about the best offensive play of the game was a beautiful 30-yard pass to the Browns' tight end, Robert Royal. He dropped it. It was also the game when they intended to present Ralph with his Hall of Fame ring at halftime, but the fans already were angry about how bad the team was before the game. The first half was so bad, the Bills postponed the presentation ceremony our of fear that the booing would be too embarrassing. I think this is incorrect. I mean, it's incorrect to say that he had an NFL career.

Right. The fans might be all over the place, and some would take Burrow or Herbert second. Some would take Trevor Lawrence. But the GMs know better. The difference between Allen and everyone else, except Mahomes, is that Allen has consistently done things on the field that no one else does. Herbert looked like a very good QB, maybe even excellent. You could say that about Burrow, too. Herbert made some outstanding throws, throws like Allen and no one else makes. But only Mahomes and Allen to date have shown packages of skills that the experts see as transcendent. Allen makes power throws all over the field that no one else can - bullets that pass through tight, closing windows. Mahomes is nearly as good at it, maybe better on the shorter throws. Mahomes is amazingly elusive, Allen shakes off big tacklers like very few QBs ever have. Both make big plays when all seems helpless, like on third and 22. So, sure, some fan may think Burrow will be better, or Herbert, and that fan may even turn out to be correct. However, based on what we've seen from the field, it's hard at this time to see any reason to project anyone to be better than Mahomes and Allen. And, since that's my opinion about the two and the rest, I continue to find it historically amazing that the Bills traded the pick for Mahomes and then drafted Allen the following year.

Couple of thoughts about this: Rodgers. Rodgers has been amazing, but as we began to hear about five years ago and we continue to have confirmed, Rodgers is something of a jerk. Apparently not all of his teammates like him. In my mind, that gives Mahomes and Allen (both of whom are well-liked an edge over Rodgers. Ben. I often say Allen will be something like Ben when he gets older. Something like Ben, but better. What I mean by that is that in his younger years, Ben was pretty mobile. He didn't run like Allen, but he was at least a threat. He'd do 100-200 yards a year. As he got older, he stopped running very much. Allen won't run in his later years either - something will have slowed him down. But Ben has a remarkable ability to slide in the pocket, to slip tackles, and to shake off arm tackles, so he his able to buy time in the pocket much better than, say, Brady. Ben can do that because he has good awareness, good feet, and most importantly, good size and strength. Ben also has the arm strength to make a lot of quick and accurate throws late. Allen already has shown all of that. I think when Allen is in his thirties he will have an edge over most QBs because he will be able to buy time in the pocket and deliver the ball with that great arm of his. And to bring that back to the Mahomes discussion, I think that will make Allen better than Mahomes 10 years from now. Allen's height and size will give him an advantage over Mahomes when they're both forced to stay in the pocket more in their later years. Being big has extended Ben's career, and it was a serious advantage for Peyton, too. Russell Wilson continues to be able to scramble and be effective, but I don't think either Allen or Mahomes has the kind of scrambling ability that has allowed Wilson to do it effectively at age 32. And I think Wilson's scrambling days are numbered. And just because I think a mid-30s Allen will have some of the good characteristics of a mid-30s Roethlisberger doesn't mean that the Bills will look like the Steelers and not the Patriots. There's no reason to believe that the whole organization will look like the Steelers just because Allen may look like Ben.

These are good.

Yeah, if you're talking about just worst, gut-wrenching play, without regard to whether anyone screwed up, you're right. I was there, too. Would have been 17-3 against whom - the Chiefs? I think they were undefeated at the time. I was also in the stadium for the Ravens playoff game this year. It's not exactly the same play - Lamar Jackson blew it - but Taron Johnson's pick six was the total opposite in terms of emotional impact. It gave the Bills the lead that a Tuel touchdown pass would have given the Bills against the Chiefs. I guess things even out.

!!!!

He threw right to his receiver. It was a perfect throw. It just happened that a defender was standing there, a defender who was supposed be chasing Stevie into the end zone.

I was at that game. The fumble didn't bother me at all. It was, what, 3-3? Under two minutes left, Bills are heading toward the open end, with the wind their faces. So this was going to be the Bills' last possession (unless it goes to overtime, but the game was so miserable, everyone just wanted it to end). The Bills have only one playmaker - Roscoe Parrish, and returning punts was his best skill. Roscoe and everyone else in the stadium knew that Roscoe was the best chance the Bills had to score. Actually, he probably was the ONLY chance the Bills had to score. So Roscoe took a chance fielding a punt he would ordinarily have let bounce, and he muffed it. Browns recover gain 15 yards and win it with a field goal. I never blamed Roscoe for that play. He did exactly what I wanted him to do - try to catch that ball on the run and take off running. Didn't work.

Most misunderstood play in Bills history. Tuel did exactly what he was supposed to do on that play, and Stevie did not. Tuel's job on that play was to see if his receiver got inside leverage off the line of scrimmage. If he did, Tuel was supposed to throw to a spot. Stevie's job was to break over the middle from the slot, so that the slot corner would follow him out of the space where the ball was going to be thrown. Stevie made one of his incredible separation moves off the line of scrimmage, so much so that the slot corner stumbled, leaving Stevie free to run into the end zone. However, after the stumble, the defender was standing right where the pass was going. Tuel didn't see the slot corner, because the QB is looking at the receiver, not at the place that he's going to lead the receiver to. The play was designed to assure that that zone would be empty - Stevie's move left someone in the zone. Yes, Stevie was wide open, but Tuel's first read was whether the receiver got the inside leverage - once he saw the inside leverage, Tuel didn't and wasn't supposed to look for Stevie. It's much like Russell Wilson's interception in the Super Bowl against the Patriots. Wilson saw the formation, saw his receiver get the inside leverage and threw it. That was his job. Wilson wasn't supposed to look to see if the defender was jumping the route; he didn't have time to look. Tuel didn't have time, either. It wasn't his job to look.

I was at that game. I was so pissed. It was a completely meaningless play, but it was totally gutless. Gailey agreed with you and me. Oh, and whoever said, Ron Harmon has to be way up on the list.