Logic

The comment you replied to was LITERALLY me asking how Keap's kneeling was political, and you somehow found a way to shoehorn Antifa into your response. I mean...really?

"Black Lives Matter" is a far left group? Horseshit. You think Antifa has ANYTHING to do with Kaep's kneeling, which is what I was asking about? Horseshit. As for the supposed videos you mentioned from the bolded section...Can you link some of them, please?

Horseshit. You might want to look at the data again: https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/cities

By that logic, why is kneeling to bring attention to the murder of black people a political issue? Dems/Repubs/Libertarians/Independents, I would hope, all support bringing an end to systemic racism. The fact that "stop killing black people" is thought of as a political or partisan view is part of the problem.

1. YOU don’t consider racism a public health emergency. You’re not black, I assume, so it’s not your life or your childrens’ life on the line. 2. This whole thread belongs in the PPP, why are you just NOW wanting to take it there? 3. No “reasonable” discussion is ever had in the dungeon. 4. I have never stated that racism is MORE of a threat than COVID, only that it is urgent and that I understand why people are willing to risk their lives to oppose it. 5. You’re not going to change my mind on racism being an urgent public health issue. I’m clearly not going to change yours, either. We can agree to disagree, it’s fine. p.s. Equating people protesting (maskless and fully armed, by the way) for the right to get haircuts and Applebee’s is NOT as urgent or pressing as protesting 400 years of racism in America.

What I am saying is that systemic racism has been going on for 400 years and that, combined with the very real threat of ongoing police brutality committed by highly militarized agents of the state, it represents a very real and longstanding public health emergency. I understand and empathize with people for being willing to risk the threat of contracting coronavirus in the name of fighting something that has been ravaging black Americans for four centuries. https://www.npr.org/2020/06/04/870025677/coronavirus-and-racism-are-dual-public-health-emergencies https://www.wsna.org/news/2020/racism-is-a-public-health-emergency https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/health/racism-public-health-issue-police-brutality-wellness-bn/index.html https://www.cleveland.com/akron/2020/06/akron-seeks-to-declare-racism-a-public-health-emergency.html https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/06/03/somerville-racism-public-health-emergency-black-lives-matter/

I am not for the "disarmament of the citizens of this country". I AM for logical gun law reform. I want to take guns out of the hands of the mentally ill and people with criminal backgrounds. I have no interest whatsoever in taking guns away from sane, law-abiding citizens. Waited 30 minutes? No. Just a silly notion on my part that you would actually READ the content that you were commenting on before passing judgement on it. I do wish that conditions in our country weren't such that these protests were necessary, yes. I do acknowledge that they are a nightmare as far as COVID transmission is concerned, yes. I also feel that police brutality and racism are public health emergencies, and that NOT demonstrating resistance to these emergencies isn't an option for many people. Resisting systems of oppression has always been deadly. Some causes -- like stopping police brutality and racist violence -- are, in my opinion, worth risking one's life for. Finally, amazingly, you and I agree on something: Over-militarization of the police force and brutality on its citizens is a huge problem.

I can guarantee, based on the speed of your response, that you didn't bother reading the article or the chart. That's fine. Keep happily supporting the system that perpetuates police brutality and the use of military force against black citizens and peacefully assembled protestors. I and others, meanwhile, would prefer to at least entertain alternative ideas. You seem to have a habit of asking a question either unrelated or only tangentially related to the posts that I make. I'd be happy to answer that, but first: What's YOUR position on the material to which you just replied?

I see that there are conversations happening involving the comparative merits of defunding, demilitarization, and abolition of police forces. I just wanted to contribute this graphic and link to the discussion, because I think it's very interesting. It is admittedly from the perspective of police abolitionists. I also want to point out that defunding and abolition are not as preposterous as some would have us believe. Because we have all only ever lived in a carceral society, it can be hard to envision what true defunding and/or abolition of police and the prison industrial complex would look like. To be clear, it does NOT mean total lawlessness and anarchy in the streets. Most police abolitionists envision a transition away from the police as we know them and toward a collection of more highly specialized units. It also means a transition from incarceration-based punishments to things like rehabilitation, counseling, mediation, and restorative justice. The long term goal is to get to criminals and potential criminals and address their underlying pathos early on, rather than throwing them in jail, which we have seen over time to not be an effective way to deter them from repeating their criminal behaviors in the future. First, a link to an article called "What a world without cops would look like" : https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/06/police-abolition-george-floyd/ Second, this chart, which is in the form of a zoom-in-able PDF file: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/59ead8f9692ebee25b72f17f/t/5b65cd58758d46d34254f22c/1533398363539/CR_NoCops_reform_vs_abolition_CRside.pdf

Fair enough. Count me among those who don’t find quietly taking a knee during the anthem to be disrespectful. Taking a knee is, in my view, a gesture of reverence, not disrespect. Here is a link to a letter of support to Kaep from American military personnel. https://www.google.com/amp/s/theundefeated.com/features/an-open-letter-from-american-military-veterans-in-support-of-colin-kaepernick/amp/ A Washington Post poll found that 53% of Americans find it disrespectful. Pretty close to a 50-50 split. Im curious what it is about the gesture of kneeling that people find disrespectful, personally. It has historically been a reverent, respectful gesture.

Do you also find it disrespectful to stand in line for beer, chatting with your friends in the stadium concourse during the anthem? How about urinating in the stadium bathrooms during the national anthem?

Fair enough. We can agree to disagree. My position is that anyone who has not directly acted (be it through donation or other peaceful action), who has sat in silence as these things happened over the years and done nothing to help put an end to them, is, through their non-participation, complicit. I will simply leave it at that. Do you believe that kneeling quietly to bring attention to racist police brutality is disrespectful?

If folks don't like the beer ad comparison, how about the "Salute to Service" week? If people feel that football is not the right forum for political/social issues and the league should "stick to sports", shouldn't we stop with the military flyovers, camouflage gear, and troops at games?

Thats literally my point. People who find Kaep’s protest disrespectful seem to feel that his using captive NFL viewership as an audience to his social justice message is wrong. “Stick to sports!”, they say. Meanwhile, Anheuser-Busch uses captive NFL viewership as a way to sell a product that is linked to 88,000 deaths a year in our country, and the same people don’t find THAT disrespectful. Kneeling to bring attention to a cause that wants to SAVE lives is enough to get people to want to turn off their TVs and swear off the NFL. Meanwhile, the constant barrage of ads during an NFL broadcast for a product linked to 88,000 deaths a year doesn’t make them bat an eye. Where’s the “stick to sports!” Cry then?

I respectfully disagree. I’ll use myself as an example. I have seen countless instances of police brutality against black people over the years. I have not lifted a finger to protest, I have not donated money to any causes that work toward fighting systemic racism, I have not written to politicians about it. Simply posting on social media about it or saying “I don’t support that” isn’t enough. I have a voice, and I haven’t chosen to use it for allyship, and that makes me (inadvertently) complicit. Not any more. I will never fail to use my voice or open up my wallet to be an ally to my black brothers and sisters again. White silence is violence.

I find it weird how people that are offended by Kaep’s protest AREN’T offended by the constant onslaught of ads during NFL games trying to sell them alcohol. I’d rather see one 2-minute silent protest before a game than 37 beer ads during it. Raising attention for a worthy and vital social cause is far more noble than taking advantage of captive viewership to try to sell them a product linked to addiction, disease and death. Put another way: if you find a quick, silent, peaceful protest profane and distasteful, but you don’t find the constant barrage of advertising profane, I question where your heart lies. And if you say “well, the NFL needs the ad money!”, guess what? They also need the black players.

This thread has illustrated perfectly how much work there still is to do in this country to eliminate systemic racism, police brutality, and oppression of people of color. The mere fact that there are still people who legitimately believe that there’s no such thing as racism in our country, that “the real problem is black-on-black crime”, or who think that they themselves are in no way racist or complicit in the perpetuation of an unjust system is heartbreaking, though not surprising. All of us, every single one, would do well to reflect on the degree to which our own silence and inaction over the years have contributed to the problems we face today. We have all, in privilege and apathy, ignored systemic racism for too long. I encourage self-reflection, self-education, and if you are moved by this struggle, donation to worthy causes, signing of petitions, and writing to politicians. For anyone who legitimately thinks that our country and specifically our criminal justice system are not absolutely FILLED with racism, I suggest watching “13th” on Netflix. I don’t expect people whose minds are already made up on this issue to actually do so, but I think they’d really benefit from it. As as for the NFL: talk is cheap, and long past due. Let’s see them back up their talk with action. One more thing, for the people in the back: Black lives matter.

That's.....that's literally what all of this is about. I mean...wow.

Just curious who you mean when you say "these people". Also, the fact that you choose to use the term "lynching" to describe wanting to hold a cop accountable for killing an innocent black man is, to be frank, insensitive and ignorant, not to mention tone deaf.

Saying "All Lives Matter" isn't necessarily racist, it's just ignorant. It would be like if a house was on fire, and when the fire department got there, you tried to direct them to spray water on every house on the block, because all houses matter. The point is that there is one specific house that is on fire, and that's the one we're trying to get help for. By the way, saying "black lives matter" is not saying "black lives matter MORE". Cool. Glad you're able to have a mature, adult discussion about this issue.

Please explain how kneeling silently during the anthem disrespects the troops. Please also suggest a different way to "make their voice heard" that you think would be effective and "acceptable".

I disagree that their opinions hold as much weight as yours or mine. MILLIONS of people are likely to hear Brees' opinion. Not so much yours. And whether he likes it or not, many young people look up to him as an example. The opinions of athletes -- and all famous public figures, really -- carry more weight than yours or mine. And I disagree with Brees. For anyone to still think kneeling wasn't justified or is just about "disrespecting the flag", well...If the events of the past week haven't opened up your eyes to the importance and necessity of Kaepernick's protest, I suggest that nothing ever will.

Right, because protesting systemic racism and police brutality and attending a football game are totally equal in terms of importance.

Brandon Beane:

Again with this already debunked nonsense?