Logic

Thank you for that. It sounds like a very frustrating game to watch. To go down by two scores to an inferior opponent, scratch and claw all the way back and take the lead...only to watch the putrid Pats offense march down field easily for the game winning score. Like I said above, I think I might be glad I missed this one.

Thank you to all who replied. Patching together some of the better responses, a pretty clear picture has been painted. To me, it sounds like while the coaching/scheming was not perfect, it was execution that lost the Bills this game. A combination of being whipped in the trenches, dropped passes, penalties, and mistakes. Add that to the Pats likely playing with much more fire and urgency due to being 1-5, and you have a recipe for disaster. Even so, it sounds like it took the Pats driving down field in a 2-minute drill to win the game, during which the Bills defense folded too easily. Thanks again, everyone. Glad I missed this one 😅

Yeah how could they NOT have foreseen an ACL tear on turf. Clearly should have seen that coming from a mile away. Totally a predictable and not at all random injury 🙄

I missed the game yesterday. I never, ever, ever miss Bills games. On the rare occasions that I do, I used to be able to record them and watch them back later. No longer a possibility. I already watched the highlights. I already read some of what's in the media about the game. What I'm looking for is a sober, accurate recap of how the game really went from one of our many great posters here, who can keep emotion out of it to some degree. Not angry shouting and over-simplified Monday morning quarterback diatribes or crazy nonsense. I realize this may be an impossible task on this forum after a bad loss. But...I'm just very curious how this game went and how it wound up with the outcome it did. What did the offense do well and not do well? Was Dorsey's playcalling and personnel usage diverse and interesting, or was it static and uncreative? Was the pass protection any good? How was the run game? How did Josh play? How did the defensive line do without Ed Oliver? Did Von Miller make any impact? Did Dorian Williams look decent? How did the corners play? Elam? Why were the Pats able to score so many points with such a moribund offense? Any input and reasonable, non-emotionally-tinged information or recaps would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.

Fair question. I think that Josh Allen is a no-doubt-about-it top five QB. Probably top 3. He is on pace to have a Hall of Fame level career. One championship will make it a no-brainer. I think that Josh Allen can sometimes be beaten mentally. Certain defenses and defensive coordinators know how to get into his head, make him question what he's seeing, not trust his eyes, and overthink things. We've seen it against the Jets. We've seen it two years in a row against the Jaguars. We saw it against Wink Martindale and the Giants. The Steelers gave him fits the first two times he played them. Josh Allen's greatest opponent is his own mind. When he's feeling confident, gets into a rhythm, and trusts what he sees, he's nearly unstoppable. That's not hyperbole -- when he's in that zone, he very literally CANNOT be stopped. When he can't get into a rhythm, is lacking in confidence, is not trusting what he's seeing, he becomes his own worst enemy. He starts pressing and overthinking things and the offense grinds to a halt. So to answer the original question succinctly: Josh Allen is elite, and may go down as one of the greatest of all time. He is not without weaknesses, though, and his primary weakness is the ability of the opposition to beat him mentally via quality defensive scheming and by making him question what he's seeing.

If I ever need to laugh, all I have to do is think of the first few minutes of The Jerk. "I was born a poor black child..."

Here's the good news: New England is actually NOT that good at running the ball this year. They are ranked 26th in rushing yards per game. The best defense for the Bills this Sunday will be a good offense. Get off to a fast start (no small ask for this team lately), score early and often, and take the running game out of the equation. Oh, and the Thursday night opponent, the Bucs? 28th ranked in rushing yards per game. It won't surprise me if Ed misses that one, too, and they focus on getting him right for the long haul.

It's funny how quickly the narrative changes. I seem to recall an awwwful lot of hand wringing and whining and crying when Williams was drafted and then it was announced that he'd be a WILL. The way people carried on, you'd think no starter in the NFL ever gets injured and misses time. Lo and behold, a quarter of the way into the season, Williams is called upon to play, and looks good, and here we are. I'm sure all of the people that absolutely ripped Brandon Beane apart for picking Williams will be trickling in aaany minute now for mea culpas.

Using serial killings in the 70s and 80s to justify extra-legal traffic stops in the 2000s is weird. Even THINKING to draw that parallel is bizarre. Usually I have no choice but to begrudgingly admit that you are making good points or making good sense, but this definitely isn't one of your stronger outings.

Buy: The Bills freshman and sophomore linebacker combo is going to be just fine. Terrel Bernard ALREADY looks the part. Dorian Williams shows flashes of insane athleticism and great instincts. He's green, yes, but I think he's gonna be a good one. Suddenly the "unnecessary" drafting of a Will linebacker in the 3rd round doesn't feel so unnecessary. Sell: The notion that Kaiir Elam is a bust and can't play good NFL football. I'm not saying he's a world beater, but whenever he has a few consecutive weeks to get on the field and get his feet wet, he shows steady improvement. He had a few beats against the Giants, but he also had some good plays. Guess which ones get highlighted and talked about more? Hold: Ken Dorsey is a good offensive coordinator. There are weeks -- Vegas, Washington, Miami -- where he looks like a top five play caller. There are weeks -- London, SNF -- where his scheme looks static, unimaginative, and slow to adapt. The Bills being the 3rd ranked scoring offense points to Dorsey being a pretty good play caller. The misuse or under-use of guys like Harty and Kincaid suggests that he doesn't maximize his personnel. Dorsey is a bit of a Rorschach right now, and I'm eager to see what his next three weeks against good defenses, and after two straight bad games, will look like.

Zero times, Bill. Zero times. Now please explain how your question is relevant whatsoever to the discussion.

Extra-legal harassment is extra-legal harassment, arrest or not. Fair enough. I haven't lived in Rochester in over a decade, so I really can't comment on what the RPD is like nowadays. 15 or so years ago, it was a different story. At least in my experience.

I have always followed a similar pattern with regard to this forum or other Bills forums: I post a ton in the offseason. I find roster building, scouting rookies, the draft, free agency, and coaching hires all to be super interesting and fun to talk about. Once the season starts, though? I do a lot less posting here, and a lot less visiting the forums in general. Why? Because everybody is too wildly reactionary after every game. If the Bills play well and win the game, people are booking hotel rooms near the Super Bowl site. If the Bills lose or even win in a way that is not "stylistically appealing", it's like a funeral march around here, with all sorts of posters you've never seen or heard from before crawling out of the woodworks with "Fire Dorsey!" and "bench Poyer!" threads. It's exhausting. Reasoned analysis and dissection of the game after a loss or an ugly win are necessary -- that's what a forum like this is for. But the over-the-top exaggeration, doom and gloom, and hyperbole that one often finds here are just laughable.

I think that my initial response in this thread and my related responses that followed, which were pointing out my own experiences of overly aggressive policing tactics in western New York, were indeed pertinent to the conversation at hand, given that said conversation involves overly aggressive policing tactics in western New York. I'm sorry you feel differently. Thankfully, you don't have a little badge that allows you to decide what other people can talk about on this forum. As I explained in my replies, I, for one (and many folks I know, for that matter) were NOT okay with the cops "keeping an eye out for potential serial killers", or however you want to try justify the extra-legal tactics I described. Great to hear from you, though. I sure missed our chats.

Agreed. I have no doubt that my looking like I did and being in that part of town is what led to a lot of the interactions. I think the key point to me is that things like "you don't seem like you belong in this part of town, and therefore are likely up to no good" and "you're driving late at night, and are therefore likely up to no good" were, in my experience, routinely used as justification for pulling me over. But they AREN'T. Neither thing rises to the level of probable cause that a crime is being committed, which is the legal standard for pulling someone over. I got very used to this type of thing, and just assumed that's what all policing everywhere is like. I've now spent a decade+ on the west coast, driven all around Oregon and California and Washington, and have not found this to be the case. The RPD was particularly aggressive in their tactics, and I have found their behavior to be the exception rather than the rule, at least compared to policing where I now live and routinely travel.

Yes. For a long time I lived on Clifford Ave, not far from Conkey. That was where a lot of this happened. In fairness, though, one of the incidents described did happen in a nice suburban part of East Irondequoit. I drove a pretty new looking tan/gold Dodge Stratus at the time. Normal looking dude, normal looking car, not breaking any laws, not speeding. I realize this isn't everyone's experience, but it was mine. I can only speak for myself and what I experienced.

I believe it. My interactions with police officers in western New York generally seemed prefaced on the assumption that I didn't know my rights. Fortunately, I did, and any time I demonstrated so, they usually backed down -- though clearly it irritated them, and sometimes it took a cooler headed second officer to talk the first one into giving it up. I was not a fan of the Rochester police. I felt harassed by them FAR more often than I felt protected by them, as did many friends of mine.

I'll just say this... I'm a pretty "square" looking white guy. When I lived in western New York, I was routinely stopped for dubious reasons by the police. Once I was told that I was being stopped because the ball hitch on my truck was blocking a number on my license plate. Another time I was told that the air freshener hanging in my middle console was suspicious and the officer asked what I was trying to hide. Another time I was not given a reason WHY I was pulled over, but the officer pretty quickly asked if his dog could search my vehicle. I declined. After being stopped and harassed multiple times over the years for no legitimate reason, I have yet to have this happen even one time in my decade+ living in Oregon. My point is that I found the Rochester police -- in fairness, I never lived in Buffalo, so I can't comment on the Buffalo police -- to be overly aggressive and their frequent harassment to be lacking in merit and of questionable legality. And, as I said, I'm a square looking white guy. I don't think it's unreasonable to accept that a dreadlocked black man -- likely driving an expensive car -- is telling the truth when he speaks of unjustified police harassment in western New York.

It's literally Dorsey's second year as offensive coordinator. Brian Daboll was the offensive coordinator for four years here before he got a head coaching gig.

No. The issue is that the guy we got to replace McKenzie isn't being used to his full potential. Ken Dorsey has been using Deonte Harty poorly. He is using Harty solely as a gadget/motion/swing pass guy, similarly to how McKenzie was often used here. In point of fact, Harty ought to be used as a deep threat, to stretch defenses and open up space underneath for Diggs and Knox and Kincaid to do work in the middle of the field. It is frankly baffling that we're a third of the way through the season and have only seen one deep pass from Josh Allen to Deonte Harty. It should be a regular occurrence. Harty's speed and separation ability plus Allen's arm -- when so much defensive attention is being paid elsewhere, theoretically leaving Harty in advantageous matchups -- should equal frequent big plays. Letting McKenzie go was fine. Misusing/underusing the guy that replaced him is the mistake.

I didn't love the game Ken Dorsey called last night. It has been a two week stretch to forget, in my opinion. I thought he called really good games the three weeks prior, however. Most importantly, the Bills are the 3rd ranked scoring offense in the NFL and were the 2nd ranked scoring offense last year. And you're saying he's a...."problem"? As for Elam...I thought his game wasn't nearly as bad as some are painting it to be. He'll be the third string outside corner and only see snaps if Benford or Jackson are hurt. It is what it is.

The loss of Daquan Jones has been massively underrated and understated. As @drummernut74 said, 1T has HUGE importance to a McDermott defense. Our defense was COMPLETELY different without Jones in the lineup against the Bengals in the playoffs last year, and we saw it again last night (though obviously the Giants, unlike the Bengals, didn't have the offensive firepower to capitalize). People sort of rolled their eyes the other day when it was suggested that the Bills look around the league to acquire a 1T via trade, saying that we should be just fine with the depth we have at the position. The problem is that the depth we have isn't particularly GOOD at 1T. Poona Ford has looked like a shell of himself. Tim Settle and Jordan Phillips are both subpar 1Ts. I maintain that a guy like Harrison Phillips, while not perfect, would represent a substantial upgrade. The Bills absolutely should be poking around to see if any decent bodies are available at the position from other teams. I think Dorian Williams is going to wind up being just fine at WILL. He's not Milano -- no one is. But he shows promise. Ditto our trio of corners replacing White -- not so bad. Survivable. But the loss of Jones is roughhh, and I think we're going to continue to see that unless the Bills address the position with outside candidate somehow.

@BADOLBILZ I feel like this thread was made for you. 500 words please. And....go.

I thought Dorsey's playcalling left something to be desired both of the past two weeks. I, too, was frustrated by the pistol call at the 5-inch line. That said... The Bills are the 3rd ranked scoring offense in the NFL. They are behind only the Dolphins and 49ers, who most would acknowledge as the clear cut two best and most forward thinking offenses in the league. They are ahead of last year's Super Bowl participants, the Chiefs and Eagles. You don't fire an offensive coordinator who had the 2nd ranked scoring offense in his first year and has the 3rd ranked scoring offense in his second year. It's just asinine. It's reactionary "prisoner of the moment" stuff. It's not reasonable. Aside from the fact that the Bills, ya know, score a lot of points....Josh Allen endorsed Ken Dorsey, he likes Ken Dorsey, and and he wants Ken Dorsey as his OC. He's not going anywhere. You want to espouse and suggest specific changes to personnel usage, formations, or offensive strategy, then by all means, do so. I've got some suggestions myself, and there are areas where Dorsey can clearly improve. But firing him? That ain't it. Not happenin'. Ridiculous.

Least enjoyable Bills win I can remember in a long time. I don't care if Brian Daboll knew Allen's tendencies and weaknesses, I don't care if Wink Martindale called a great defensive game, I don't care if there's some kind of Tyrod Taylor revenge angle, I don't care if the Bills ARE missing three key defenders. The fact is, it is not acceptable for a team as talented as the Bills, playing at home, to have THAT difficult a time defeating a 1-4 team missing 3/5 of it's starting o-line and it's starting quarterback, and who is as all around talent deficient as the Giants are. Not acceptable. I think the players know this. I HOPE the players know this. It's maddening that a team that is supposedly as high character, hard working, and has such a great culture as these Bills, and who are led by a very disciplined coach in Sean McDermott, can routinely have 3-4 games a year where they just look uninterested, unfocused, low in energy, and make repeated concentration errors and shoot themselves in the foot so much. I have never seen such an elite team need so many "wakeup call" games per season. I have never seen such an elite team make it look so difficult so often. Yes, I'm obviously extremely relieved that the Bills won. A win is a win is a win. There are no style points. The Bills are 4-2. Win and move on to the next week, that's all that matters. But at some point -- at SOME POINT -- it would be nice to feel like this Bills team has learned its lessons and taken its medicine and to see them start CONSISTENTLY playing up to their sky high potential. Frustrating game.