oldmanfan

About 8,000 out of 700,000 some deaths and out of about 180 million vaccinated. You wanted millions to die because you wanted to do nothing

1. Study done in Kentucky. It’s on the CDC website. The Israeli study is somewhat biased because the vast majority of folks were vaccinated before the delta variant arrived. And the stuff about pharmaceutical conspiracies would negate all the medications that have worked wonders for so many. Or would you rather we not have them? 3. No one agues that healthy living and boosting one’s own immune system is admirable. I take zinc for colds for example. Ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine do not have effect on Covid based on prospective randomized trials. India has pulled Ivermectin from use, and that was the country everyone pointed to as to being the proof of its efficacy. Regeneron I believe is the monoclonal and that is used once you have it and are hospitalized. A basic tenet of medicine is to prevent before needing to cure. Vaccines do that. 4. You ignore all historical data on vaccines showing that in the very rare case of side effects they are found within weeks, as the small risk of myocarditis and blood clots with Covid vaccines. You ignore the basic tenet of benefit vs. risk with medical treatments and I’ve already shown the math on that. 5. Vaccines introduce a foreign antigen into the body which stimulate an immune response, which is exactly what the Covid vaccines do. The delta variant can still reside in the upper respiratory tract for several days and thus be passed, but vaccinated people spread it less than unvaccinated, and of course unvaccinated account for over 90% of hospitalized patients and/or death. Vaccines do not have to offer a cure, that is not the definition. They help prevent you from getting infected as per flu vaccines, HPV vaccines, DPT vaccines, and so on. Some are much more effective such as the eradication of smallpox, sone require boosters such as tetanus, flu, and probably Covid. Finally this is a public health problem. It requires the public to work together to attack it. We did so with previous such crises such as polio. Why aren’t we doing so now? I think the answer is obvious. Good discussion for sure. Appreciate your thoughts.

How many should have died to make you happy?

Thanks for confirming your desire to just let people die off. In all your incessant ranting you have never offered one constructive thought about how to effectively deal with the pandemic, other than letting people die.

Since the pandemic started it appears your position has been to let the virus just spread and kill people. Billions of vaccine doses have been given with the benefits far outweighing risk.

Those are voluntary choices. A viral pandemic is not. Does that really need to be pointed out? Seriously?

And there are studies showing natural immunity is worse. And there are studies indicating not everyone who gets Covid mount as strong an immune response as others. And there are no other proven remedies. And by inferring young people or healthy people should just allow themselves to get infected, what you are saying is you are fine that some of them will die or have long lasting complications. If you truly think the way to handle this is to play Russian roulette with people’s lives, that is incredibly sad.

As far as masks, there is abundant data from both observational and laboratory studies showing that masks mitigate against the spread of droplets and aerosols, which are the main sources of transmission. As for vaccines, I really can’t believe I need to say this yet again, but the data on that shows that they are extremely protective against getting seriously ill and requiring hospitalization or resulting in death. The vast majority, over 90%, of hospitalized individuals are non-vaccinated. Is it still spreading? Spread slowed earlier this year, then went back up with the delta variant, and is now slowing again. You want to try to absolutely stop the spread? Get everyone vaccinated so the virus has no hosts within which to propagate and mutate. It is truly astounding to me that there are some on this board who feel we should never have done anything and just let people die.

I trick or treated in the snow more than not back in the day

There’s no reason to not have trick or treating

This is the most ridiculous thing you’ve posted yet. And that’s saying something. Equally ridiculous.

You think people care, but sadly to me attitudes many times say the opposite.

Morbidity associated with Covid should be tracked and reported to the same extent as mortality.

The vaccines went through clinical trials like other medications, but because of the severity of the pandemic they dovetailed with the EUA. There's also the lie about them not going through animal testing when in fact they did. There have now been billions of vaccine doses given and the benefits of the vaccines far outweigh any risks. That is the bottom line. Kids have a much greater chance of dying from Covid than any side effect associated with the vaccine. Fact. They have a very small overall chance of dying from Covid, true. But when that kid is lying in the ICU trying to breathe, do you think they and their parents will then wish he or she had gotten vaccinated? You keep using the stuff about unknown side effects, and ignore the science of both previous vaccines as well as the Covid data. The history of side effects with vaccines show they are very rare, and are found within weeks of immunization. In fact, that the very slight risks with myocarditis and with the blood clots with the J&J vaccine show that, and show that the surveillance for side effects has been very robust and successful with the Covid vaccines. The bottom line is that the risk of significant side effects with the vaccines are extraordinarily small. Again fact. You say I can't guarantee anything. True. I can't guarantee that someone gets the vaccine, walks out of the clinic and gets run over by a bus for example. If you are asking for 100% guarantees about the vaccines, you are asking for the impossible. No drug or vaccine ever invented in the history of mankind has ever come with a 100% guarantee of success with absolutely no side effects. If you honestly believe that should be required, I suggest you go home. throw out every over the counter and prescription medicine you might have in your possession and live in a bubble. One of our colleagues on this thread hit the nail on the head. Getting young people to get vaccinated will be a challenge because young people feel invincible. And the other reason as I indicated in a earlier post is that this pandemic has laid bare the fact that our society is no longer a society, and no one cares about their fellow man anymore. The individual who could go out and get infected and pass it along to a parent or grandparent or neighbor doesn't care.

Your schooling did not apparently include math. It is known that the Covid vaccines, especially the mRNA types, have an increased risk of myocarditis associated with them. The Israeli data as well as the data in the report you cite support that. Now what is the actual risk in terms of percentage of cases and mortality? In the article you cite the risk is 4 per million or about 0.14% of all adverse event reported to the VAERS system. In kids, the article you cite suggest that there have been just south of 3.5 million vaccinations, and 559 myocarditis cases, of which there have been 6 deaths. Which are tragic to be sure. But if ones then does the math, it turns out that the mortality rate from myocarditis secondary to vaccination is about 4-7 deaths per million individuals, or around 0.0005%. The mortiality rate of Covid in younger individuals as I pointed out above is about 0.005% from Covid itself, and does not account for longer term morbidity associated with the virus. As I have said numerous times here, medicine is about benefit vs. risk. The numbers here suggest that there is a benefit to the vaccine, in that you have a 10 fold higher chance of dying from Covid than myocarditis in the younger age group. Below is the CDC review and recommendations: To assess the benefit-risk balance of mRNA vaccines in adolescents and young adults, ACIP reviewed an individual-level assessment that compared the benefits (i.e., COVID-19 infections and severe disease prevented) to the risks (number of cases of myocarditis) of vaccination, using methods similar to those described previously.††† Specifically, the benefits per million second doses administered (i.e., the benefits of being fully vaccinated in accordance with the FDA EUA) were assessed, including 1) COVID-19 cases prevented based on rates the week of May 29, 2021§§§; 2) COVID-19 hospitalizations prevented based on rates the week of May 22, 2021¶¶¶; and 3) COVID-19 intensive care unit (ICU) admissions and deaths prevented based on the proportion of hospitalized patients who were admitted to the ICU or died.**** The risks were assessed as the number of myocarditis patients reported to VAERS that occurred within 7 days of receipt of a second dose of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine per million second doses administered through the week of June 11, 2021.†††† The benefit-risk assessment was stratified by age group and sex. The analysis assumed 95% vaccine effectiveness§§§§ of 2 doses of a mRNA COVID-19 vaccine in preventing COVID-19 cases and hospitalization and assessed outcomes for a 120-day period. The 120-day period was selected because 1) no alternative vaccine options currently exist for persons aged <18 years or are expected to be available during this period, and 2) inputs regarding community transmission have high uncertainty beyond this period, particularly in the context of circulating variants.¶¶¶¶ The benefits (prevention of COVID-19 disease and associated hospitalizations, ICU admissions, and deaths) outweighed the risks (expected myocarditis cases after vaccination) in all populations for which vaccination has been recommended. However, the balance of benefits and risks varied by age and sex because cases of myocarditis were primarily identified among males aged <30 years, and the risks of poor outcomes related to COVID-19 increase with age. Per million second doses of mRNA COVID-19 vaccine administered to males aged 12–29 years, 11,000 COVID-19 cases, 560 hospitalizations, 138 ICU admissions, and six deaths due to COVID-19 could be prevented, compared with 39–47 expected myocarditis cases after COVID-19 vaccination (Table 2). Among males aged ≥30 years, 15,300 COVID-19 cases, 4,598 hospitalizations, 1,242 ICU admissions, and 700 deaths could be prevented, compared with three to four expected myocarditis cases after COVID-19 vaccination. This analysis did not include the potential benefit of preventing post-COVID-19 conditions, such as prolonged symptoms and MIS-C (6,7).

Good points all, especially the examples at the end. Clearly the data in younger individuals is much more comforting inbb by that they are at much less risk of death. My larger concern in younger groups who contract the disease and the resulting potential morbidity. There was just a study this week suggesting Covid infection might link to increased risk of diabetes. We don’t know long term what will happen. Of course some say the same about the vaccine, but given the nature of the vaccine and historical data on side effects it just is not an issue. Side effects from vaccines are rare, and show up within weeks. And the myocarditis and blood clot issues with the J & J are examples where they were found quickly. It comes down to benefit vs. risk and the data are clear. But convincing the younger group is hard as you indicate.

It is not my field of research but I have been reading the relevant papers since the pandemic started. I know the answer probably but I’ll ask anyway: are you a scientist?

Yes. Forty years in research. And that is how science works. You make observations, you do your research, you publish. Others do their research, publish their findings that may differ from yours in some ways. Your data and conclusions are critiqued as are others. And consensus develops. it is scary for the future of our country how many people like you have no clue what science is and how it works. And even worse, don’t care to know.

No, in other words how science works.

You realize the risks of things like blood clots from the vaccine are way less than morbidity and mortality from Covid? The only other time in history I can think of where we had either a national crisis or war or something like that, and the country didn’t pull together, was Vietnam. And the Civil War, but that was obviously a unique case.

You honestly believe a cold is comparable to a major issue from Covid. You honestly think that. There’s really nothing to be said about that. Then take the risk and if you get it have the decency to die in your own bed and not waste resources that could be used to save someone else.

You’re right. In my healthcare system alone I probably know a thousand or more doctors, nurses, allied health care professionals that all recognize that vaccination is the responsible thing to do for themselves and their patients. And thus know you’re crazy.

I can assure you the scientific consensus supports vaccination

Well this is the issue, isn’t it? Is it about the individual or about the society? A global pandemic hits and people ask what’s in it for me, rather than how can I help my neighbor. Your last paragraph speaks volumes. The mortality rate among vaccinated is at least 10 fold lower than unvaccinated, hospitalization rates are much higher with the unvaccinated, yet you talk about death and suffering in vaccinated. The Modena thing, I can’t find any numbers on with respect to actual risk of myocarditis, only that it’s very rare, and if it’s like the Israeli data it’s maybe 7 cases in a million and most all resolve. And Sweden didn’t tell young people not to get vaccinated but to choose a different vaccine. But somehow that’s construed as worse that getting Covid when the data says otherwise. People say the CDC should get better spokespeople and so on. But it won’t matter because we now live in a society that is no longer a society, where the guy next you doesn’t give a damn about you, and where actual scientific knowledge is thrown on the alter of social media-hyped insanity. And again, thanks for being an organ donor.

I know hundreds personally that think they’ and you are crazy and since 90% or more of health care workers are vaccinated across the country they apparently agree.