Last Guy on the Bench

Sure. I'm not particularly anti-Peterman. Was just responding to the poster who said he hadn't thrown any passes in the Chargers game (I think he was mixing up which was the 5 int game.) That being said, I think I agree with Kelly the Dog that a lot of his troubles seem to come from lack of arm strength. I was quite interested to watch him play, but I can't say I ended the year feeling at all optimistic that he was going to stick in the league.

That's where I land. I don't think he starts right away. But he will at some point, unless McCarron is really on a roll. Not holding my breath. Given our brutal road schedule early, probably the best plan is to let McCarron weather that storm, and then, if Josh is making good progress with the offense mentally, get him in there - somewhere in mid-season.

He threw 14 passes in the Chargers game, 5 of them to the Chargers.

I always take off Thursday-Monday. My own little paradise staycation. Load up on all the junk food I won't usually let myself buy. Queue up some good binge watching material for the down periods when I've consumed all the draft-related info I can find. It's a four day extravaganza of indulgence. I look forward to it every year the way I used to look forward to Christmas when I was a kid. My wife usually just heads out for a mini vacation of her own. I can't blame her. Watching me sink down into the hedonistic depths over four days isn't pretty. Usually takes me a week of recovery to feel like I'm not still football-junk-food-computer-screen stoned.

Ha ha. That did cross my mind. Ongoing traumatic stress syndrome.

Wow. Not that I want the Jets or Phins to be good. But it would be pretty cool seeing Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen fighting it out in the AFC East for the next ten years, while the Pats fade into oblivion. I know it's unlikely that all three will pan out anyway. But it would give us the most interesting division for a little while at least.

I can't even let myself contemplate this possibility. It is too exciting. I understand that Darnold is a little sloppy and not as developed in some areas as some of the other guys. But he is the one guy who screams franchise to me. I actually think he is the safest pick, not just the one with the highest ceiling. When I watch him play, I just have confidence in him. He sees things that other QBs tend not to - little windows and angles. He finds a way to make plays at the right moments. He's got that confidence and that kind of idiot savant geometry that all the best QBs have. And pressure doesn't seem to bother him - on or off the field. Can't believe he is so young. If the Bills somehow manage to get him, it will be the happiest I've been as a Bills fan since the USFL closed up shop and Jim Kelly came to town. Seems too good to be true, though. I don't see how the Browns/Giants/Jets let this guy get past them (or trade down instead of taking him). Guess we'll see.

Yeah, QBs like Flacco and Dalton are tricky. My knee-jerk was to differentiate them on playoff wins, but that's crude. They may not be that different. I think they are both definitely franchise guys. I'd probably put them both at level 2 rather than level 1. The Bengals have been in the playoffs regularly with Dalton, I think. Just haven't won one. But again, that's not necessarily mainly on Dalton. Plus I love him for last year, so from the Bills' point of view he should actually be at Level 4!

Great question, since we all throw the term around so much, and we mean different things. For me, I don't think you can look at absolutes like winning the Super Bowl - too many other factors go into that. We all want to win the Super Bowl, but first and foremost I want to consistently enjoy my team, I want it to be relevant, and I want it to feel like it has a regular chance to win the big one. So I would combine some of the different definitions in this thread into three levels of franchise. Each level would include the criteria of the lower levels. Level 1) Long-term starter. As a few people have said, that's probably a basic definition of "franchise." This guy is associated with your team in a sustained way. You continue to give him the keys. He may not be a world beater, but starting for 5 years for one team is a MAJOR accomplishment, if we think about all of the thousands of gifted high school QBs, whittled down to NCAA QBs, whittled down to pro contracts, whittled down to starting even one game, whittled down to journeyman, whittled down to this. These Andy Daltons are nothing to be sneezed at. There ain't that many of them. Level 2) Is a major contributor to a team being regularly in the hunt. This is probably THE key level for me. I'd be super happy to have this again after 25 years without it. Makes the playoffs more often than not. Wins some playoff games. Might have a down year here and there, but bounces back the next year. Teams can ride this QB to relevance and January football enjoyment for 7-12 years. This is gold. This is Phillip Rivers, Donovan McNabb, Joe Flacco, etc. to me. Level 3) Can put the team on his back at difficult times. Fourth quarters, comebacks, major injuries to other key players, etc. These guys suck to play against. Even when you seem to be controlling the game, outplaying their team, etc., they just make it really hard for you to beat them. They often (not always) just seem to have one more play in them than you do. It isn't always pretty, but it works. You know these guys because even when you are beating them you don't feel good and you are waiting for the other shoe to drop. Conversely, if they are on your team, you always kind of expect to pull the game out at the end. You won't every time, but you still except to. It's very relaxing. These guys don't have to be perfect or win the SB necessarily to me. I would include QBs like Kelly here along with the obvious ones like Brady, Rodgers, Montana, etc. I'd put Wilson here. Roethlisberger. Elway. This is nirvana. Obviously you can still argue about where guys should be. Where's Eli. for example? -Clearly meets level 1, I think clearly meets level 2, level 3? Sometimes. Anyway that's my two cents, based purely on what I value and enjoy in a QB for my team. I want one.

This definitely deserved its own thread. Although I appreciate the work to keep the board from getting too cluttered, I am getting weary of having to wade through omnibus threads to find news, fresh topics, and interesting takes. Why should something as general as the owner's meeting have its own thread and be the only place to post on all of the many kinds of topics that might come out during that meeting? That being said, I acknowledge that this is the best discussion board on the internet. Love it, and I appreciate all the work people do to keep it that way. But maybe we could be a little less intense about jumping on people posting new topics?

That's exactly where I am. I'd be thrilled to land him. But my overall ranking is 1)Darnold 2)Mayfield 3)Jackson . . . . .moderate gap in my enthusiasm level to 4)Rosen 5) Allen 6)Rudolph. And I could probably be talked into Rudolph before Rosen or Allen, though I know I'll get flamed for that. Frankly, if any of those six land here, I'm happy and intrigued - at least until the first preseason game ;-).

Thanks for the read. Enjoyed it, as I do all of your long ones. Keep it up, and don't let the idiots with the attention span of a chicken get you down. Somehow they still find the time to post in a thread that they don't want to read.

Right? The more I watch him (and I'm starting to watch whole game cutups - not just highlights) the harder it is for me to see why so many people are down on him. He's not a super impressive athlete, to be sure. But he makes quick decisions, seems really accurate, has a nice way of stepping up and shuffling around in the pocket, and has a really good feel for the deep ball, despite not having a super strong arm. Most importantly, I think he often throws effectively into pretty small windows, from what I've seen, including over the middle and in the red zone, as you mention. I do see that often he is throwing to his first read, as that's the design of the offense. But he does it quickly and accurately. And there are plenty of times where he doesn't like what he sees so he scans the field and finds someone else. He keeps his head up. I'd be very happy to have him on the team to see what he can do. I don't see him escaping the first round. Maybe he won't be successful, but I can't figure out why so many people are so sure about that. There's a lot to like with him.

Exactly. His best throws are so much better than anyone else's best throws. They are jaw dropping. Obviously not consistent enough, and maybe he never will be. But I can see why people can get enamored of his potential. If the Bills ended up with him, I'd hold my breath and pray, but he surely would be interesting for a while.

Ha ha. Fair point. Have at it. I would hate to admit the number of crazy dreams I've had about the Bills over the last 50 years.

Dude, you've posted something negative about Darnold not just in that one thread but in EVERY thread lately. We get it. You don't like him. Others disagree. Relax. You don't have to work out your anxieties in every thread. Everyone who reads this board knows how you feel.

I think so too. My guess is the early rumors about the Bills loving Darnold are legit. They came from way back last summer from scouts scuttlebut IIRC. I think the Rosen and Allen rumors later on were deliberate on their part. I bet they still love Darnold Darnold is also my first choice at this point - I know he's sloppy, but I just love the way he plays. He looks comfortable and born to play QB. He's got a spark and a command that are rare for a 20 year old. But I'm also intrigued by Mayfield. I kind of buy the Bills' focus on big guys, though, so I don't see them going that way. There was some video in the last day or two where the commentator was talking about that big guy preference on their part. He thought it pointed to Allen, which it could. But either way he was basing it on more than just Beane's prototype comment. He said that Dabol might share the Pats' bias for big guys - apparently the Pats wouldn't even scout QBs that didn't meet their height/weight/hands minimums.

Fair enough. You're right that while there are always surprises, for the most part guys do go roughly where the "consensus" in the draft media had them, give or take a round. Although that tends to be truer for the late predictions in April than for the earlier ones (at least that's my vague impression). I'm just arguing against the practice of immediately writing off all outlier opinions. Just look at the commentary after any mock draft. "There's NO way that guy will go there" etc. There's always a way. I'm not saying you're doing that. Anyway, I have no dog in the Rudolph fight. He certainly put up impressive numbers. But we've seen that before. Seems pretty sharp in the few interview clips I've seen. If the Bills do grab the guy somehow, we'll all be praying that Trapasso is right - though it sounds like some of us will be jumping out a window before training camp even gets here!

I have no idea whether Rudolph will be good or not, but, "How could every NFL personnel person be wrong?" Happens all the time. Especially with QBs. Not to mention, we have no way of knowing where "NFL personnel" actually have Rudolph ranked. Who knows? Some might have him #1 on their boards. It kills me that people are so sure about things pre-draft, when every single year their are NUMEROUS prospects who end up defying what was perceived as the consensus before the draft (or even during the draft - when great players are passed over again and agin). I love all the opinions and analyses and predictions, as much as the next guy. And I waste WAY too much of my time on the draft from Feb-April. Love it. But I just don't get how anyone can claim to be sure about their (or others') opinions or act like someone with a different opinion is "obviously" crazy. Rinse, lather, repeat.

It's a great question (despite the fact that no one is answering it). I'm in the trade up at all costs if there's a QB we like camp. But as you say that might not be possible. There are 5 QBs I would take a flyer on at 21 and maybe even 6 (Rudolph would be the 6th). So with your original 4 QB premise, I'd still probably use one of the picks on a QB and pray. If all 5 or 6 QBs were gone, then I'm with you. Trade down if possible. Accumulate picks. Add solid players. Maybe take a mid-round flyer on one of the second tier QBs. And then try to get up high enough in the draft next year again to pick a blue chip QB.

Thank you for being the voice of reason here. Your posts are refreshing. I doubt that many people will take in your point that our first reactions are conditioned (not just "reality" or "my opinion"). Well, they'll admit it's true for other people, just not for them. But it's nice that you are taking the time to write thoughtfully about the fact that the "it's her voice" argument is nowhere near as simple as it appears. Personally, I found her decent. Easy to listen to. Some unfortunate stumbles, but what else is new? Most announcers make them regularly. It is too bad that she kept calling Taylor McCoy, since it's easy ammunition for anyone who doesn't want to reflect on this issue with more nuance.

I'd take the over too. I know some of the sheen has come off of this class, but I still really like it. I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up almost comparable to 1983 with 5 or 6 QBs taken in Round 1 and maybe 3 of them turning into franchise players, if not HOFers. If I had to guess, I'd say Allen doesn't actually get taken in R1, but gets snapped up in R2. I think the other five you list have a good chance of going in R1 or at least early R2. I would be pretty happy with any of them except for Allen.

I agree, though I admit I'm much less knowledgeable than you guys who follow college ball closely during the season. I watched a bunch of his games last year. Haven't seen much this year, though I will try to catch up, but I do understand people's concerns about the drop off. But Darnold is super young still, and I think he just has "it" - the stud QB version of "it". So a rocky-ish year doesn't bother me, and as you said, he wins. He may have a rough first couple of years in the NFL, but I feel like he'll end up as one of the top QBs in the league. I know it's highly unlikely the Bills could get their hands on him. Best scenario would be Browns take Rosen and the Bills pull off a mega trade with the Colts or Bears, if they are in position. Some people may hope he drops down farther based on an off year, but I doubt NFL GMs are that stupid. I don't see how he gets past the Giants. I'd be pretty excited about Jackson, Rosen, Mayfield, or even Rudolph. But I'd be over the moon with Darnold.

I agree. I might put Lewis ahead of Coryell, but your four as a whole seem just right to me. I can't understand any argument against them. Moss was a total freak and an absolute joy to watch play. Lewis was an all timer - a dominant player who changed games. TO was in the top few receivers in the league for many years and has the numbers to prove it. Coryell paved the way for 21st century football. Don't know how anyone can not vote for any of those guys.

Good stuff. Thanks for taking the time to post.