Kirby Jackson

That’s all fair I don’t think a reasonable argument can be made that they’re better. Regardless of how we feel about Diggs, he was with the Bills for 4 seasons. He had the 4 highest catch totals, the two highest yardage seasons (4 of the top 12), and 2 of the top 3 TD seasons. No one that they have is coming closer to replicating even the worst of those seasons. It’s reasonable to think that Shakir takes a step forward. What does that look like? If you’re optimistic you can say, Coleman will replace Gabe (45/746/7). Samuel is an upgrade on Harty. They are worse for sure. They are bottom 3 now. They COULD maybe move up to like 22 if things go well. That’s about the ceiling for this group. They could be 32. One move though, and that ceiling is in the top 10. That’s the beauty of it. They have enough bodies and varied skill sets. As a total hypothetical, if the Bills traded the Vikings 2 & their own 3 to Dallas for Lamb (would still probably have a 1,2,4,4,4) they would be dangerous. That pushes everyone into a role that they are more suited for. I obviously know that’s a long shot but that’s the glaring hole right now.

Fair question The Bills absolutely had to either trade for a vet at the top of the depth chart (Ayiuk, Adams, Lamb, etc..), trade up for a top 3 guy (MHJ, Nabers, Odunze) or take 2 of the next 7 (I wouldn’t have had Coleman in that group). Those were the options and in that order for me. Samuel/Shakir/Worthy/Baker or something like that would have been acceptable. My issue is, and has been, that they didn’t address the top of the depth chart. The rest of the group is okay for their roles. I think it’s reasonable to believe that Shakir/Samuel/Coleman are top 75 WRs. The problem is, they might not have a guy that’s top 50. That’s a problem. In terms of moving the goal posts, Coleman was the 8th WR drafted. They traded down twice. That’s not moving anything; that’s what happened. FWIW, he wasn’t in my top 10. This isn’t altering a narrative. Shakir was really efficient. He had the 136th most targets in football last year!! There are 32 teams. 136/32=4.25. He would have been somewhere between the 4th & 5th most targeted player on every team. We are now asking him to be a number 1(ish). Will it translate? Maybe? Should you count on that? Of course not. Samuel is a gadget guy because that’s who he’s always been!! That’s not a knock. Deebo is a gadget guy. Samuel will catch screens, run routes, take handoffs and maybe return some kicks. He’s a great guy to have on your team. He’s not a tradtional boundary WR. Hope that clears up your confusion…

That’s such a weak answer. Everyone that says, “we won’t know” is code for “they suck right now but I don’t want to admit it.” It’s okay. We are a bottom 3 group today. The question isn’t where “they could possibly be.” It is “where are they today?” They aren’t good. As an Ohio State fan, I have ALWAYS loved Curtis Samuel. I loved him from his recruiting story to this day. He isn’t a boundary WR. He’s a weapon. People didn’t like when I said that at his signing but it is true. The Bills have said as much. We are sitting here today with Mack Hollins as a lock!! That guy isn’t a guy that plays offense on a championship team. We have WR 3’s as 2’s, 2’s/3’s are 1’s and we are thin behind the top 3. It is a bad group. And another “shocker”

You need a certain amount of bodies at each position to fill the camp roster. They “neglected” it because they didn’t care about the quality of those bodies. So while they added some bodies, as every single team does, they neglected the need for quality. Not sure what’s strange? Shakir has some ability but is a former 5th rounder with some production in a limited role. He’s now a focal point. We are calling Samuel a “priority FA” and he got a fraction of the contract of Gabe. Coleman was the 8th guy taken, period. If the Bills were higher on him, they wouldn’t have moved down once, let alone twice, risking the opportunity to take him. They obviously didn’t love the prospect. I don’t hate the idea of taking some former busts (Hamler, Claypool, Isabella, etc) and having them compete for the last spot. The Bills planned on needing those guys. That’s a failed strategy (again not surprising). If you were to rank these WRs (WRs only) against the rest of the NFL, where would you have them? I’m on record that this group is between 30-32. If you are as high as it seems, please list the NFL teams that you believe are worse at WR than the 2024 Buffalo Bills (hint: it’s a VERY short list).

This is the least surprising development of the offseason. The Bills neglected the position. They let 4 of their top 5 from 2023 go (including a former all-pro). They replaced them by elevating a guy, signing a solid to good offensive weapon and drafted the 8th WR in the draft after 2 trade downs. They followed that by counting on a bunch of busts and role players. Here we are, weeks from the start of the season and we aren’t happy with the group. Color me shocked…

You forgot Curtis Samuel (if you count him as a WR). He might be the best of the group. Samuel is a playmaker (although not a pure boundary receiver). The group was never any good. 😂😂 Injuries are terrible. Injuries to a bunch of fringe NFL players aren’t that bad. You just replace them with other fringe NFL players. If Claypool & Hamler get hurt, you replace them with guys like Byrd & Isabella.

Why? What is a 27 year old WR, coming off 1,342 yards, on only 75 catches, worth?

Agreed I am high on Bourne. He’s as good as anyone that the Bills have currently (imo). He’s a quality WR. He isn’t Ayiuk but Deebo, Pearsall and Bourne is a strong room. Judon on that defense is crazy. They will be tough and still have the pick for next season if this deal happens.

I thought that the Bills would try to get Judon. He doesn’t really fit the Pats timeline

I placed a fairly sizable bet on Ricky Pearsall to be rookie of the year right after the draft. I’m banking on them moving Ayiuk and Pearsall seeing big volume in an elite offense.

Nope, although Daniel was a functioning backup when called upon (9 TDs to 7 INTs). Daniel was also one of Drew Bree’s’ best friends. He’s the poster child for paid most to do little. At least teams could justify continuing to pay him. That’s the biggest difference. The Peterman issue is that he is the worst QB to ever play the position (4 TD to 13 INTs with 53% completion). That number rises to 61% if you count completions to either team. There was no reason for him to stick around when there were other, less terrible, options.

I used Matt Barkley earlier in the thread. He checks those boxes. AJ McCarron, Trevor Siemian, Brian Hoyer and Ben Dinucci would all check that box. There are many, many, many more. Every one of them is more deserving.

Lol, I didn’t say that his opinion was factual. I said that it is a fact that he ranked them 28th. It is. Thoughts on practice is Kincaid is the guy that has a chance to be a stud. It sounds like he was today. They need that. He can be a top 5 TE and is probably a top 10 TE today. It’s the WRs that I think aren’t very good. I hope that I’m wrong. One practice, in shorts, isn’t changing my thoughts on anything. Opinions are the same now as before. I’m not sure why you take issue, that a bunch of guys with spotty production/resume/pedigree are concerning? Why should we be optimistic? Aren’t those the elements that would lead someone to be optimistic?

Um, it is a fact that Warren Sharp ranked them 28th. That it his opinion. Both are true. His opinion is based on his analysis of data (like a scientist). My perspective and expectation is Super Bowl appearances. Their point differential and 40 straight games without a loss over 6 points supports that. I spend hundreds of hours a year and tens of thousands of dollars annually on this team. My commitment isn’t in question. I hold them to the standard that they should be held to. In 2017, I was thrilled with a playoff appearance. In 2023, I was not thrilled with another Divisional Round loss.

I keep using talent, pedigree and production. Justin Shorter was the number 3 WR recruit in the country.https://n.rivals.com/content/athletes/justin-shorter-17797?view=pv I’d put that in the pedigree category. His production in college would probably say that his talent was a little overrated. The production isn’t good. He would be 1 out of 3. Production trumps all. Objectively, would be the “not influenced by personal feelings” definition. Feel free to look it up. There is no bias in my analysis of this group. It is an emotionless opinion. When I discuss the Bills on this thread I try to provide OBJECTIVE analysis.

Oh, we all love how they finished the season. They have different players now. Joe Brady was elite as an OC when he had Burrow, Chase and Jefferson. He struggled with talent in Carolina. He did a good job last year with a different group. Which guy is he? Is he the guy from Carolina or the guy from LSU? As an aside, I’m a Brady fan. I was in Louisiana at that time. You can search this message board, 5 years ago, before 99% of the people here knew who he was, and see me advocating for him as OC (and even HC). I believe in Joe Brady. I don’t believe in the WRs.

Any scheme designed to have Josh Allen as a role player, fits right into what other teams want. The Bills playing to “run the ball and stop the run” is an opponent’s dream. This team, as currently constructed, needs to be the Josh Allen show. The Bills don’t have the pieces around him that other winning teams do. The top of the Bills roster is very weak comparatively. The starting 5 being “workable” isn’t impressive. You need a guy(s) at the top of the depth chart that teams fear!! They have a top 10 TE and 4 WRs that would be number 3’s in most offenses (no one higher than WR 4 in Houston or Chicago). The Bills have assembled a group of pass catchers, that one of the most respected, data-driven, football minds, ranked as the 28th best group. Why would anyone defend that? It’s okay to want them to succeed. That’s what we all want. Looking at it objectively though, it isn’t a good group compared to their peers. With Josh Allen, in his prime, that’s a mistake. I don’t think any reasonable person could argue that they are good enough there. At best, you hope that some of the lottery tickets are winners. At worst, you have a bunch of WRs that can’t get open and make plays. Josh Allen will need to be Superman to have this team competing for the playoffs. Thats a failure of roster management.

I think that the biggest divide in this thread is the “possibility” of this group performing well vs. the “likelihood” of them playing well. Someone earlier said that Peterman could outperform Mahomes. He certainly could. Justin Shorter could have 2,000 yards receiving. Those of us skeptical of the receiving room are looking at the likelihood. This group, on paper, is one of the worst in the league. Do I think that the Bills will have one of the worst passing attacks in the league? No. They have Josh Allen. The point is, if they end up with the 12th(ish) best passing attack, they would have been much higher with even an average room. My biggest issue is not surrounding Josh with elite talent. He is asked to elevate role players. The entire focus should be, give Allen everything to create an unstoppable offense and be good enough everywhere else. The Bills philosophy, in the Allen era, has been to allocate $ and elite draft picks to the defense and let Allen cover for their deficiencies. They’ve kind of made more of an effort over the last couple of drafts. Although when they desperately needed a WR they traded down twice and selected the 8th guy at the position. Despite where he was picked that doesn’t scream to me the Bills saying, “we need to get Josh more help.” This team lacks talent comparatively. Look at all of the top 50 or top 100 player lists. See how many Bills players are on their vs. other top teams. Could Andy Isabella or KJ Hamler end up on their next year? Sure. Is it likely? Of course not. That’s the issue. Those of us holding the Bills to a higher standard are in “wait and see” mode like the rest of you. We just aren’t expecting things that are highly unlikely to happen. We wanted, and still want, the Bills to add more weapons that are LIKELY to contribute as opposed to COULD contribute.

Thank you for leaning in. I believe the ceiling to be significantly lower than you do. It’s a bunch of number 3’s and a lottery ticket that never has gotten separation. If Coleman is St. Brown or AJ Brown, that changes things. If he’s a Gabe replacement, they are significantly worse than last year. I’m especially down on Claypool as I have a close friend who is a scout at the Bears. He called him a “cancer” and said, “he was one of the worst guys that he has seen in a locker room.” This friend played 7 years in the NFL. His text, the moment the Bills signed him was “Claypool 🤮.” He said, “we sent him home and got better.” I clearly have some bias against him but not without context. He has ability. I think the odds of him being good again are about 10%. He’s more likely to be a disaster than a quality player.

Is it safe to say that the Commanders may be as good at QB as the Bills by that logic? It’s just vibes but unknown on the Commanders end. They took an ultra-productive QB. We don’t know if he will be the best QB in the league, average or bad. He’s more likely to be elite than the Bills WRs based on talent, pedigree and resume.

Those sound like excuses. We can look at the talent, pedigree and resumes of every team and compare them. That’s what Sharp did. That’s what people do at this time of year. The reason that some are shy to do it is because it isn’t impressive comparatively. None of us would hesitate to stack Josh’s talent, pedigree and resume against his peers. That’s because he will show as elite.

Okay, all of them, go…

Who are the 11 teams better in a best case scenario? Who are the rest if we are top 16? The problem that some of us are struggling with is that no one is going on record with the teams. Obviously no one will say that the Bills have better pass catchers than SF but waiting for someone to (incorrectly) say that they are better than Atlanta or someone like that.

If there is a “notion to the contrary” someone should list the teams lower and support it. We are seeing a bunch of “they are better than Warren Sharp’s ranking” but no one is stepping up and listing the teams that they are better than. That doesn’t feel right. I have them bottom 3 with New England and LA Chargers.