Kirby Jackson

Interesting thought. You’re probably right. I can’t imagine that this would be something Rodgers wanted. The trade is an interesting one. Pickens has all kinds of ability but is an idiot. He’s an explosive playmaker that has played with 🗑️ QBs and voiced his frustration. We will see how it works in Dallas. Dak is much better than what Pickens has played with but so is Lamb. They’re either going to have an incredible passing game or it’s going to go up in flames. 🤣🤣

It’s a very fair question. There is no easy answer but it’s probably a little of both. The difference was so extreme that it’s not just coincidence. That may be a part of it but the offense was clearly much better with him. The triangle is a great analogy. The answer is TBD. I was obsessed with those 90’s Bulls teams. IMO, they don’t have a Pippen but have some of the other roles filled around Jordan. The OL is sort of Grant / Rodman doing the dirty work to help make it go. Kincaid to me is like Paxton / Kerr in that he can be a quality role player but rarely take over a game. Cook is a little like Kukoc in that he has a lot of ability but will never be the focus of the team. The receivers kind of remind me of Cartwright/Wennigton/Longley. They are the least talented of the starters but have a role. They’re never taking over a game but if they go out there and have 9 points and 6 rebounds they haven’t been a liability. Those Bulls teams would have won a lot of games because of Jordan. Would they have won all of those championships without Pippen? Shakir is the one sort of exception and he is somewhere between the BJ Armstrong and Paxson / Kerr. He’s the 3rd or 4th scoring option on a good team. Shakir is to the Bills what Jrue Holiday is to the Celtics offensively. To answer your initial question, I’d say something like 65% Cooper’s presence, 20% coincidence and 15% his production. Obviously, that’s subjective but to try to quantify it, that’s what I have. The Bills faced the 3rd least 2 deep in the NFL last year. I haven’t seen the breakdown by game, but I will bet my life, that they saw way more 2 deep in the games that he played vs. didn’t.

I pride myself on being honest and using numbers to support my argument. With that being said, I guess that we should look at the offensive numbers with Cooper and without to confirm what I said was true. I threw out the last New England game completely so as to not alter anything. There were exactly 8 other regular season games with him playing and 8 without him playing. In the 8 games that Cooper played, the Bills threw for 264.4 yards per game and scored 35.5 PPG. In the 8 games that Cooper did not play, the Bills threw for 203.6 yards per game and scored 28.1 PPG. For those of you that don’t think that 7.4 PPG difference is significant, the Bills finished 2nd in the NFL at 30.6 PPG. If you subtracted 7.4 PPG and were at 23.2 PPG they would have finished 12th. Don’t let people try to put their feelings in the way of facts. There they are. Do with them what you will…

Please go ahead and google the numbers before and after Cooper arrived. The numbers aren’t up for debate. Beane or McDermott talked about it last week. It was multiple PPG points and the passing game increased. My “assumptions” are based on facts and numbers. Using Cooper’s stats to debate the results is ridiculous. As I’ve now said to you 58 times in this thread, it isn’t just about what the player does!! It is also about how their presecence impacts coverage. I really don’t want to dig up the offensive numbers with and without Cooper. I’d prefer if you looked yourself or took my word for it. What you will find though is that they were way more effective once he got here for whatever reason.

The question ultimately becomes, “is what they did last year during the regular season sustainable?” The offense worked well until it didn’t. They didn’t have enough juice to get the score when they needed it. Their passing game regressed significantly but it was enough in the regular season. The OL was incredible as was Josh. They set a record for lowest negative plays ever. If that regresses to the mean, can they overcome it? We look at last year’s results and, if we are simple, can say it worked. If we look at all of the underlying reasons that it worked, is it reasonable to expect that again? p.s. The numbers were WAY better after the Amari acquisition.

This is a fun offseason thread!! You did a really nice job with it. The time between the draft and camp can be so slow. This was a nice break.

It’s just funny because it’s pretty much the same for all new stadiums. Everytime another team is about to build a stadium their fans expect them to be an exception. 🤣🤣

I wouldn’t say automatic loss but we looked like we might have been dominated in that game. Things can change over the course of a game but it certainly wasn’t a good start.

I actually was referring more to the Bengals when I said the Bills haven’t looked good against them. It was a little confusing the way that it was written. They’ve been a weird matchup for some reason.

I think that the worst matchups are Baltimore and Cincy. I don’t know why the Bills just don’t look great against them. I voted KC because McDermott hasn’t figured out how to stop them when it matters.

You’d say above average? You’d say, that there are 16 teams that have a worse WR room? I’d be interested to see the 16. I came up with Raiders and then there are 3 or 4 more in the same area.

Lol, both Beane AND McDermott said after the year that they needed to be able to stretch the field vertically. Maybe you’re listening to different press conferences than I am where they say, “I was just kidding when I said that in the last press conference.” The Bills were +24 in turnover differential. Only one other team was more than +12. That giant turnover margin is likely to regress. The historic offense benefited from historically low negative plays. Again, this doesn’t happen in a vacuum. To be clear, I think that a field strecther was more important than competition for Cam Lewis, Reggie Gilliam and J’Marcus Ingram. I think that the delta from those guys to Hancock, Hawes and Strong is less impactful than someone like Arian Smith. Do YOU agree or disagree? To be clear, for the 52nd time, I do not think a 4th round WR would be the difference in the Bills going 7-10 or 14-3. I don’t think that competition for Cam Lewis does that either. I do believe that Arian Smith (for example) is more likely to make a play impacting a playoff game vs. KC or Philly that could be important. That is my focus. When you’re 1 or 2 plays away, I’m looking for the guys that are capable of making 1 or 2 plays to put them over the top. I’m not worried about what I’ll have to do if J’Marcus Ingram plays some snaps in 3 games instead of Dorian Strong. I like Strong (for example) but don’t think that delta impacts wins or losses one iota. Hope that clears it up. @LEBills I’ve reached my tap out point as well. 🤣🤣

Omg, this is Groundhog Day. You do not need good receivers to have a good offense. If you have better receivers than you currently have, your offense will be better. In terms of a 4th round speed receiver, I’ll go through it for the 51st time because clearly it is still missing for some people. The Bills saw the 3rd least 2 deep last year. That was the case with Josh Allen as the QB which is crazy. That means, the Bills offense faces more defensive players, closer to the line of scrimmage than all but 2 teams. Their strength is getting the ball into playmakers hands quickly. When the defense crowds that space it is tougher for room to operate for the backs and Shakir. If the safeties were deep, Kincaid would have more space in the middle along with Shakir and Samuel. Getting a guy that plays 15-20 snaps and can raise the amount of 2 deep teams play, space will be created for the Bills playmakers. If you still can’t understand it, I’ll ask that someone else try laying it out for you. The overwhelming majority of the board understands this. That doesn’t even get to the potential for chunk plays or PI down the field. Big plays are important too.

The greatest hookup!!

We did the London game and had a blast. I was hoping for another European adventure this year. I think Madrid is possible. It wouldn’t be shocking if Miami didn’t ask the league to protect the Bills game. We go there, take over their stadium, and pound them every year. Maybe they’ll take heir chances on a neutral site?

I thought the same thing but they didn’t. I can say with 100% certainty that they picked Bills and Packers. Assuming that the league obliges, we won’t be heading to Ireland.

I put it in another thread but it’s unlikely. Each home team asks the league to protect 2 games. They pretty much always oblige (maybe even always). The Steelers have asked the league to protect the Bills and Packers.

My goodness, it’s not complicated. The offense being good doesn’t mean every position group is good. The same goes for the defense. You can be a great defense and have bad LBs. I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove because you aren’t doing a very good job articulating it. The Super Bowl Champs have 2 of the top 12 paid WRs. A top _____ isn’t required to have a top offense or defense. That’s the entire point I’ve been trying to make. With that being said, the Bills have a top offense without having good receivers.

The Lions led the league in scoring. Goff was the trigger man. Does that make him the top QB? Top 5? No, there’s no correlation. The Lions were the top offense WITH Goff not because of him. The Bills were a top 5 offense BECAUSE of Josh Allen. Nuance The Eagles won the Super Bowl with 2 of the top 12 paid WRs in football. They’d say that it’s very important. Everyone is different

Bro, I just wrote a 3 paragraph response answering it. 🤣🤣 The Bills have a bottom 5 WR room. It’s almost impossible to argue otherwise. The Bills have a top 5 offense. It’s almost impossible to argue otherwise. Would the Bills offense be better with better WRs? Of course it would. Would the team overall have been better by adding Thornton instead of Walker for example? Nobody knows. We have our feelings and beliefs but the answer is nobody knows and nobody will ever know. I don’t understand the Josh Allen and Joe Burrow switching teams question. Josh Allen was the MVP of the league. Joe Burrow was elite on a bad, poorly coached team. My guess is the Bills record would have been a little worse than it was with Burrow and the Bengals record would have been a little better with Allen. They are both elite QBs with different skill sets. Both were in the top 5 in points scored. The Bills led the league in turnover margin by 8!! For context they were +24 and only one other NFL team was more than +12 (Pittsburgh at +16). The Bengals finished at +3. I’m assuming that 21 turnover gap would have been important to team records. Lol, I spent 6 seasons in a front office. Obviously I understand the give and take of building a roster. Of course you have to make certain decisions at the expense of others. I’ve said, 50 times since the draft that I would have addressed speed receiver at the expense of competition for Cam Lewis, J’Marcus Ingram and Reggie Gilliam. That, to me, would have been a better use of resources. That’s my opinion. Beane went in a different direction. It doesn’t mean that he is right or that I am right. We will never know. FWIW, I like the Moore signing a lot. He has good skills and fills some gaps that the room was missing. At the same time he averaged 8 yards a catch last year. He hasn’t lived up to the prospect that he was. He’s had bad organizations and QBs. It’s a good chance to take for the Bills. His presence alone though doesn’t elevate the group. To be better than a bottom 5 group they’ll need growth from Coleman, Samuel, and Moore. They’ll need Josh Palmer to fit like they think he will. If that happens, they’ll be better than last years group.

Lol, I hate this argument. The Bills offense scored a lot of points. The Bills have one of the worst WR rooms in the league. Both of those things can be true. They have an elite OL, one of the best players in the league at QB, good to very good backs, one of the best OCs in the league, had the highest turnover margin in the NFL and the fewest negative plays ever (or something like that). That allowed them to produce at a high level despite the lack of talent in the WR room. If they can maintain those things again, I expect them to remain good. Why are we believing Beane when his actions show that he isn’t content with the group? He brought in Elijah Moore a day after the draft. He gave a 3rd for 1/2 a year of Cooper. They averaged like 7 more points a game with him in the lineup or something. That’s not just coincidence. Teams changed the way that they defended the Bills. He used 9 (or whatever) of his 30 predraft visits on speed receivers. He can say, “the offense is good I’m not worried about receivers.” You’d have to be pretty simple though to believe it based on his actions. The group is better today than they were a week ago. Again, maybe the Bills can win again with a bottom 5 group of WRs. They did last year. They had a lot go their way. I sure hope they can. I do think great receivers are important. The Super Bowl Champs pay their top 2 WRs $57M a year. They clearly think it matters. There are multiple ways to win. The Bills have chosen to build elsewhere and to try to win WITH the WR group that they have. It has worked for them to this point. That doesn’t mean that they are good though.

Yes it is. Is it easier to take one step back and catch a ball or to run 15 yards down the field and shake a corner? You know that. No reason to dig in. They had high separation scores and ran a ton of routes conducive to a high separation rate. Both things are true. That’s a credit to Brady more so than anyone. He designed an offense that scored lots of points despite some clear blind spots / holes. They have added Palmer and Moore to gain separation. They have won with route running and further down the field. That will open up more of the playbook. That’s a positive.

Misleading though because I’ll bet that they also had some of the lowest average depth of target in the league. If you throw a quick screen, that would be considered separation. Samuel and Shakir saw lots of those and Kincaid some. Are they winnning with route running 10-20 yards down the field? That’s what prime Diggs did. I’m not suggesting that they need prime Diggs but someone that wins with route running.

They have certainly thrown stones at guys that were good at one time. Flowers and Bateman, along with the TEs, is solid though. They’re taking chances on guys like Hopkins bouncing back because they have a stable group of pass catchers ahead of him. If he’s 70% of what he once was, that’s helpful. I like their pass catchers. I think they play so much off script that it’s tough to tell that they are actually good.

I like the signing and wanted him in that draft. Moore and Palmer are guys that get open with their route running. That’s something that the Bills missed last year. They had to run so many plays around the LOS because of the lack of separation. They were at their best when they could just get the ball in someone’s hands. These 2 will add a dimension that’s been missing. I haven’t followed him closely as a pro. When he was coming out there was a belief that he could get down the field. He did a lot of that at Ole Miss with double moves. I saw last year he averaged like 8 yards a catch so I’m assuming that there wasn’t much of that. Maybe it was QB or scheme. Maybe he just hasn’t been able to do it like the scouting reports thought he could. It’s probably a little of all of that. Despite his size the Bills should try to use him to get down the field. Overall, it’s a nice addition and makes that room better.