OldTimer1960

It's the "I quit Bowl". I will say that I defended Marrone's choice of an experienced special teams coach who has put bad units on the field, but this guy clearly needs to go. Special Teams have cost Bills dearly this year.

Good night, soon to be 20-3

Remind me again why there is a thread every few weeks worrying that the Bills will lose Mike Pettine to a HC job? NE has exceeded their weekly rushing average in less that 1/3 of the game - when the conditions clearly dictate that passing will be difficult? I understand selling out against the pass to force someone other than Tom Brady to beat you, but it is so wet, I think you have to play the run some and make them beat you passing - clearly they are B*tch slapping the Bills current defense in the run game.

Surely the other 52 players on the roster and coaching have SOMETHING to do with whether a team makes the playoffs. It isn't COMPLETELY about the QB solely taking a team to the playoffs. By your stated algorithm, the following QBs would either be on the hot-seat next year or out: Matt Ryan Matt Stafford RG3 Eli Manning Ben Roethlisberger Phillip Rivers Sam Bradford Possibly: Tony Romo, Joe Flacco, Ryan Tannehill, Carson Palmer, Jay Cutler, Nick Foles Young guys on a very short leash: Jake Locker (by your definition out already after 2 years), Geno Smith, Mike Glennon, EJ Manuel BTW: Playoff QB Alex Smith would have been long out of the league by now - his first 3 years he threw 19 TDs and 31 INTs. Brett Favre didn't lead his team to the playoffs in either of his first 2 years - and ATL gave up on him after 1 year. In Favre's 3rd year the threw 19TDs and 24 INTs - GB made the playoffs as a wild card in spite of him rather than because of him. My point is that I think you have to have more patience with young QBs than you suggest. Also, I strongly believe that while QB is the most important position, it isn't the ONLY position that contributes to team success. Almost every QB needs a supporting cast to play well. I'll grant that Tom Brady is doing a great job elevating a weak supporting cast, but almost nobody else could have done that in his position. I am pretty sure that the Falcons regret giving up on Brett Favre after 1 year...

Agreed to some extent. They invite players to the combine who have shown some productivity at the collegiate level, but that productivity comes against varied levels of competition with varied levels of talent to work with on their own team, under different schemes, etc. However, every year there are "combine stars" that get drafted higher than their college productivity suggests that they should - that is "upside"

That is only partially true. The NFL COMBINE is all about who has physical skills, but still have "upside". Upside can include: physical skills that can be developed with refined technique, further strength development, coaching on "the mental aspects", etc.

You will have to wait/be patient with any of the young QBs in this draft - really with almost ANY rookie QB. It is truly rare for a college QB to walk into the NFL and be a very good player immediately.

Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but is it shocking that the Defense improved after playing the first several games under a new coaching staff AND having been missing almost all of their starting secondary for the first 5-6 games?

+1 If the new coaches and QB don't immediately win every game that they play, they will clearly suck forever. OMG, Jimmy Johnson was 8-24 in his first two years in Dallas - they should have fired him! In Troy Aikman's first year as the Cowboys' QB he had 9 TDs, 18 INTs and a 56 QB rating - he will NEVER be any good. Hindsight proves that he should have been cut, but Jerry Jones "is cheap"!!!

Gee, wasn't Nick foles a 2nd year QB? Weren't the Eagles a playoff team or close to one the year before? Let's just continually declare that the rookie/young QB on the Bills can NEVER get it done and continue to spend 1st round picks on QBs without investing in the OL, TE or WR positions...

And yet KC has lost 4 of their last 5 games....

Rubes you fool! Don't you know that EJ is already a bust who will "NEVER" improve, the youth at WR is no excuse, there is a QB store where you can buy a franchise QB, if you aren't too cheap..."we are going to hold someone "accountable" just as the losers on talk radio say that we have to. I agree with your patient view, but there are many who just don't want to wait any more and they clearly know the answer

That other teams mention him says a lot. He is a big powerful player with good movement skills for a 300 pounder. He has good awareness in the pass rush with a knack for blocking/deflecting passes. He is good against the run. He isn't all-pro, but I think that he is quite valuable. I hope that they can retain him and that he comes back fully healthy.

Well said. Some on this board have absolutely no idea that young players need to learn to play in the NFL - most don't come out of college as Hall of Fame calibre players. It might be fun to put together a list of great QBs who were not great immediately upon arrival to the NFL. That would be a pretty long list and I think that there would be several of them who - horrors - weren't even perfect in their 2nd season!

Can we get beyond this? Yes, we all love that Thad Lewis is an underdog and that he ISN'T the starter. However, I strongly suspect that since he was a very late draft pick and has kicked around the league for 3 years since then, that he must be limited in some way. Yes, after 3 years in the league, he has played reasonably in spot duty. I agree that he has a live arm and is probably pretty bright, having gone to Duke. Still, he hasn't done enough to look like "THE ANSWER" and if the coaches prefer Manuel to him - I think we should acknowledge that MAYBE they (and previous coaching staffs including the Vikes who traded him for a 7th round pick) MIGHT know something. EJ Manuel had a good college resume, great physical size and skills and is reportedly bright and a "student of the game". If the coaches feel that he has a lot more upside than Thad Lewis, then" 1. that is a good thing 2. we should appreciate that they see practice every day I don't believe in the "conspiracy theory" where the coaches don't want Thad to succeed because it might make them look stupid for taking Manuel. This is a lame theory - heck if coaches behaved this way, Tom Brady would still be a backup and Russell Wilson would be sitting behind Matt Flynn.

+1 But,but,but that doesn't fit the "Bills suck on purpose so that they can pull money out of their fans" theory....

He has shown to be a very good run stopper, very good pass deflector and a decent pass rusher PLUS a very good player on special teams (FG block unit). Just because he doesn't have 10+ sacks/year doesn't mean he isn't good.

Loses nothing? By drafting another QB high, they lose the chance to draft a solid prospect at another position that could help the team and whatever QBs they already have. Another #1 spent on a QB would leave the Bills w 2 QBs that don't have enough quality WRs and TEs to throw to - nor enough quality OL protection for them to do well. There would also be the issue of getting each enough practice repetitions for either to develop. Everything that I've ever read says that reps are scarce for backup QBs - splitting starter reps would hinder both of the young QBs. To be clear, if the Bills feel that there is a Peyton Manning can't miss QB sitting there when they pick, I think that they should absolutely draft him. However, if there is one equal to or marginally better than Manuel in their opinion, then I think they should draft another position for the reasons stated above.

What top QB do you suggest that they draft? There has been A LOT of hype over this year's QB draft crop, but some of the excitement is beginning to fade. Bridgewater is fairly small and played mediocre competition, Carr played poorly against USC and Manziel is under 6' and plays very undisciplined football. I admit that it might be exciting to draft "Johnny Football", but I think there is significant bust factor due to his reported off-field immaturity, lack of size and undisciplined throws that he makes. That of course is only my opinion, which isn't very qualified and may change.

So do you really think that rookie QBs come in knowing everything that they need to know for immediate success at the NFL's most important and cerebral position? I suggest checking the rookie season of almost every successful QB over the last 20 or 30 years. By the way, expressing an argument in support of a contrarian viewpoint is what is supposed to be done on boards like this. Calling another post "the dumbest post of the year" without any counterpoint being expressed just makes you sound bad.

Another rookie QB dry likely gets you what you've seen this year. Patience, nobody walls into a major corporation out of college ready to be CEO - and most rookie QBs are nor going to play like veterans.

Let's think back to pre-season. MANY here wanted Williams to be cut - many also were incredulous that the Bills re-signed Leodis McKelvin... My takeaway - too many here are TOO IMPATIENT. Let's give the young players some time to grow into the NFL. MAYBE, just MAYBE it is too soon to give up on EJ Manuel - even though he has played something like a whole 9 NFL games - wait, now I see why "they" want to cut him - if he can't be a certain Hall Of Famer after 9 games, it is OBVIOUS that he'll NEVER be any good at all...

What talent on offense would that be? An injured CJ Spiller? An old, but game Freddy Jackson? Stevie "stone hands" Johnson? How about a 2nd yr WR who has started every game and has a total of 18 catches in 14 games (and 0 in the last 3)? Oh, maybe it is the other 2 rookie WRs who play most of the snaps. The OL has a good C and LT and beyond that is made up of journeymen (the 3 other starters picked up off waivers). I am NOT saying that Manuel is or is not the answer, but to write him off after an injury riddled rookie season when he had one decent veteran WR (Johnson) and a half-decent TE coming off knee surgery, and a bunch of rookie WRs seems too soon to me. If you write him off this soon, I suspect they'll be cycling through QBs for the next decade. Fact of the matter is that most rookie QBs struggle mightily. Only the RARE rookies come in and play very well and even then it doesn't always end well for them (ck RG3 - he may still be very good, but if he were playing in Buffalo this year - you would not have been happy with his performance).

With weak SD State rolling over the Bulls' defense, it is going to cause teams to question if Mack's production at a low-level of competition will translate well to the NFL. A great deal will hinge on Mack's Combine workouts. If he show superior athletic ability, he will still go high, but if he runs 4.75 or worse and doesn't show well in the strength events, his stock will drop significantly.

If Moeaki is noted, I am somewhat hopeful that the Bills might find a contributing player in him. I think that the likelihood is that he is very injured, given that KC gave up on him, but we can hope.