Alphadawg7

I watched them both, although I was younger when Butler was playing, so my memory of him is less. As far as Lofton goes, its not about whose career was better IMO, it was who was the better Bills player. If it was who had the best career, than yes its Lofton...but then in that case, Owens over takes all of them. In terms of who was the greatest Bills players, as in when they played here, then for me early and prime Lee Evans was definitely better than end of career Lofton. I think people forget how good Evans really was, he gets short changed a bit because he played in a bad era of Bills football. Yet he is still the Bills 3rd all time leading WR despite the bad teams and bad QB's he played with. He would have put up crazy numbers had he got to play with Allen during his prime.

LOL at Klieman...$500 is pretty insignificant, so unless someone was in despair, I doubt anyone takes the $500. 1 ticket to Disneyland costs that much lol. He should have done like $5k, $10k, $25k or something like that to make it more compelling of a decision at least. But $500K? Thats a different story, heck even $400k, $300k, $200k, etc...this is the kind of money I would use to make a lot more money over the next 3-5 years and impact my life/family, especially in my early retirement goals. Bills winning a SB isn't going to change my life. My world revolves around my wife and kids, as long as they are good, my life is perfect. But you give me an amount of money that I can use in a way to impact or benefit my life/family, then that always takes precedence over sports fandom for me.

I think the top 4 WR's in Bills history were: Reed, Diggs, Moulds, and Evans in that order. After that it gets more subjective with guys like Lofton, Butler, Cole, Stevie, etc as to who is 5th.

I agree...and I will say this, Allen at 6 was a joke. They labeled this the greatest "players" not greatest "careers". And even though he is 29, he has already established he is the greatest individual player to put on a Bills jersey of all time. You nailed the top 3 - And I think the order starts with Josh and then you can interchange Bruce or OJ at 2 and 3. But I would go Josh, OJ, Bruce. Thurman is without a doubt next at 4 too, so you nailed that again. And I think Reed and Kelly next were clear choices too, even in no particular order. So yeah, I agree with everything you said here, although I think Diggs has a case for 7th. Once you get past these guys it does get murky and very subjective, especially since a lot of the most talented guys either didn't play here that long (came late, left in FA, etc) or were saddled with a terrible era of football that over shadowed them or hurt their production (Moulds, Kyle, etc). For example, guys like Gilmore, Peters, Diggs, McCoy, etc. are subjective in where you can rank them despite their immense talents.

You said there was "no chance" and denied the math equation, I simply corrected the sillyness of the premise there was "no chance". Its all it was, nothing more, literally referred to it as a "simple math" equation multiple times. At no point did I advocate for him to get 160 targets, and quite honestly I wouldn't advocate for anyone to get 160 targets again in this offense. Other people who just want to argue skewed what was said and tried to turn into a bunch of other things...as usual because that is what they always do.

I didn’t say give him 160 targets…you said there is no chance he could reach 1200-1400 IF he did. And clearly that’s a silly premise

First of all, no one is arguing for him to get 160 targets (which I just told you as well in the previous post too). Someone said there was “no chance” he could reach “1200-1400 yards” on 60 more targets and mathematically it’s simply not true and that is all that was said. So I don’t know why you want to drag this in all these other directions. And as for the bold, because he’s a good football player. His efficiency in 2023 was an outlier on minimal targets, no one expected that not to drop, I mean of course it did. But it doesn’t drop perpetually either, he’s still a good football player, his efficiency is going to have a floor and to just imply it will forever drop at the same rate is just a ridiculous premise. And when you have 100 targets, you’ve got a pretty reliable sample size to know pretty much what would be expected at that point. Lmao, no I never once projected that, not even close lol. That’s a false premise a certain someone likes to pretend I said by twisting something out of context to pretend I did. That reference was made when I pointed out the difference in efficiency between Shakir and Diggs during Diggs final season. My actual projection for him was around 90-110 targets and 900-1100 yards which is pretty much what he did when he was healthy.

You are completely missing the question and the point though. One of the posters said "no chance" he could amass "1200-1400" yards on the same targets we fed Diggs (160). So the only thing being discussed right now is if he got 60 more targets last year, what would his yards have been. What you think his strengths and weaknesses are is irrelevant to the math question of how many more yards above the 821 yards would he have had if he received 60 additional targets. Unless you think he is going to add 0 yards and 0 receptions with those 60 more targets in his role last year, then how many yards he would have on 160 targets is clearly bigger than the 821 yards he got on his first 100 targets. And based on his actual production last year, that would have been 1313 yards with 60 more targets...and if you used his career averages it would be even higher. Its not an advocation to give him 160 targets, but for anyone to say there is "no chance" he could get to "1200-1400" yards with 160 targets is pretty silly because he clearly could on that many targets and its honestly not really even debatable.

What is being discussed is if Shakir got Diggs same target share (160 targets) compared to the 100 targets he got last year could he hit 1200-1400 yards. He had 821 yards on 100 targets...60 more targets is another 492 yards, which is over 1313 yards. And if you use his career averages it would project to even more yards. And Shakir is actually a really good route runner and the arm thing is maybe one of the most over exaggerated aspects of his game and you would be hard pressed to find many examples on film where this negatively impacted his ability to make a play when given the opportunity. Now will he get 160 targets probably not, and definitely not in this offense as no one will hear under Brady with how they spread the ball around and incorporate the run game. But IF he got 160 yards he clearly would finish in the 1200-1400 yard range, and its not really a question to be honest, its simple math.

Yeah that was my whole point

Yes he would. You don’t think Shakir could get 379 more yards on 60 more targets? Of course he could. Diggs is the better WR in his prime without question, he was legit top 5. Shakir isn’t going to put up the same season as Diggs…But to say Shakir has no chance to get to 1200-1400 yards if he saw 160 targets is just not accurate.

Seems pretty minor luckily

He just continues to do and say all the right things this offseason. Will it translate on the field, we will have to wait and see, but from what is coming out it sure sounds like it already is early, which is an encouraging sign as well.

Brown and Keon each breaking a 1000 yards isn't really comparable though IMHO. Keon breaking 1000 yards in his 2nd season will be more significant in a spread the ball around offense that balances with a run game than John Brown doing it late in his career as an anomaly when we ran a pass happy offense with less options to throw to and lacked a balanced run game. There is more than one way to be a difference maker as a boundary WR, and there are guys who are slower than Keon who have been top end boundary WR's, so what he can or can't be on the boundary is still yet to be known IMHO. What they need from Keon is to be the best version of himself, they will fill in guys around him who have different strengths than Keon as they are building this team more around skills sets and roles. And to your point of being fine with this type if season...If Keon can grow into a role where he can consistently be a 900-1100 yard WR in this style of offense, he will be a pretty good player for us over that span. And that is all we need him to be, he doesn't have to blossom into say a top 10 WR in the NFL even, just needs to do what he does at a high level and he is going to help this team win games.

I have been saying it all offseason, I really think Coleman is going to silence some critics this year. Everything coming out has been very positive, including things like Allen publicly talking about how Keon has been in hitting him up all offseason on getting better, understanding more what Allen wants/expects in different situations, etc. I think we will see an improvement on the guy we saw prior to the injury. And what people forget is that 1000 yards was on the table before he was hurt in week 11. At that point he was on pace for 800-900 yards, but that pace was increasing as he started getting more comfortable and involved as the season progressed. Barring injury, I think a realistic goal for him this season is 900-1100 yards and 8-10 TD's. And that would be a pretty strong season in his 2nd year in this offense that spreads the ball around.

Now this makes more sense than what you stated in the previous post. The one caveat though I will add is that Beane, the coaches, and players are not entering the season expecting the offense to be less than what it was and very much are expecting an offense that still is among the highest scoring in the league, if not better than last year. I don't think anyone expects the defense to lead this team that has the reigning MVP and just averaged 31 in the reg season and 29 in the post season. But, there is for sure an expectation that the defense should (and needs to) be better, and most specifically improving the atrocious 3rd down performances (we near the bottom of the NFL) and first downs allowed (again near bottom of the NFL). The defense was clearly more deficient than the offense last year, whether or not the moves we did make prove to be enough is yet to be seen, but it was a necessary area of the team to address. Its a lot harder to ask a team scoring 31 PPG to go out and score even more to mask a defense that can't get off the field...than it is to improve the defense to just find a way to get off the field one more time per game and stop putting the pressure on the offense to be perfect to over come its deficiencies. I am pretty excited to be both units as I believe both units can, and will, be better this year. I look at this way on the offense: Year 2 Coleman should be better than Year 1 Coleman Healthy Kincaid > Battling knee issues Kincaid Healthy Samuel > Lingering foot issue Samuel Palmer/Moore bring more to the offense as pass catchers as Mack/Ghost of Cooper did last year And of course the D IMHO greatly improved at areas of need, especially at CB and DL...2 areas KC dog walked us at in the AFCCG last year. I like what we did up front and I think its more than reasonable to think this unit can get off the field better this year on 3rd down than it was at doing so last year.

I agree, but that isn't what we have gotten 100 threads on all offseason, its been specifically on the WR room, specifically blaming WR's for the 2023 and 2024 endings when it was not at all related to the WR's those final 2 series. One thing for sure, I agree, I am over it too, the conversation in general has been beaten to death. But...the bolded here..no disrespect, but this is just a silly statement that is a reflection of your personal disappointment and in no way what so ever an accurate reflection of how Beane, the team, the coaches think and feel about the offense. We just averaged over 30 in the reg season and 29 in the post season and they feel the offense has the potential to be as good or better between the moves they made and the expectations they have of Kincaid and Coleman to better too this year between being healthy and more experienced. Whether they are right or not will be proven on the field of course, but to suggest they "want" a lower scoring middling offense like KC is just a wild thing to say and just isn't at all true.

No disrespect, but now you are blurring the lines here...you are now moving the goal posts from "WR's" to "Pass Catches" because the 4th down play was to a TE when the WR's were wide open. And sorry, I do not at all think Cooper makes it 10 yards for the first down without the subtle slip, there were defenders all around him. And more importantly, the slip is a slip...its not skill related, that could have happened to any WR in the game. Saying if we had a better WR there, then the slip doesn't happen, and we for sure get a first is just not a logical conclusion. Also - why are we throwing the screen to Cooper instead of Shakir, Ty, or Samuel who are much better and effective on a screen than the Ghost of Cooper anyway? I am not one that was upset Cook was off the field in passing situations, Ty is a better receiver and pass blocker, so I agree with you. Now, if one wants to make a case we didn't need to keep throwing and should have tried to mix a run in with Cook, well that is a fair discussion. But when passing, I get why they went with Ty over Cook. Not if you watch the replay from the top down angle, he had plenty of room to make the play, and quite frankly Shakir is excellent at RAC with ball in his hands and has broken big runs off in tighter situations. If Allen gets him the ball in stride its an easy first and likely a big gain. And Allen also had another WR in Coleman or Samuel running wide open over the middle to the left for also a first down as they were already past the marker. Cooper was even somewhat open. The point is simple...the WR personnel is not at all why that play didn't work...yet I have seen people repeatedly blame the "WR's" specifically. Exactly...I agree...yet all offseason this board has been beating a dead horse associating the full blame on this final series specifically to the WR room, which is not at all accurate on this series. What I and others are pushing back is the incorrect specific blame on the WR personnel on this final series we have had thrown around since the game ended. We had breakdowns elsewhere is the point, it wasn't who the WR's names were on the field, they were open on multiple plays and we just didn't get them the ball.

I see upside in him, but I am not sure how much opportunity he really gets here right now...suddenly its pretty crowded on the DL, and thats a good thing. Groot, AJE, Bosa, Landon are all going to likely play ahead of him in the rotation. He will get some snaps, and I think he has potential to bring in those snaps, but he is probably pretty deep in the rotation to really get too many opportunities here. His best chance will be if injuries open up more reps IMHO. I do look forward to see how he looks this year though as I do think he has potential, especially after this year if Bosa doesn't prove worth bringing back or if they wanted to say move AJE to save cap space and open up more reps for our younger guys next year.

Honestly, I agree with this, its clear as day we needed to improve on the outside, I am not in disagreement on that. My push back in general to the conversation around "blame" in 2023 and 2024 in terms of the ends of those games, blaming the WR's is lazy and inaccurate IMHO in those specific instances because both in 2023 and 2024 we had WR's get wide open and we failed in execution and did not even get them the ball. Making a case that more help on the outside at WR maybe leads to more points throughout a game is a fair and reasonable discussion. But too many times on this board, WR's are specifically and incorrectly getting blamed for failures on exact plays/series where it was not the WR's on the field, it was breakdowns elsewhere that led to the failures of those plays in both 2023 and 2024.

Yeah that very well could have been part of the issues, or could have also been GB wasn't being reasonable then in what they wanted based on them maybe still believing they could get the contract renegotiated. But now, with FA and Draft over, teams like the Bills also already added guys in both FA and the draft, so the trade interest just isn't there and left GB without willing trade partners. Personally, I doubt Bills will have interest at this stage after the moves we have already made to bring guys in they are familiar with in Dane and Tre, paying Benford, and then drafting Hairston. Jaire also seems to want a certain amount of money, so given we brought in vets like Dane and Tre who know the system, paid Benford, and drafted Hairston, seems pretty unlikely this is his next stop. But you never know either

Disagree, this idea that without the slip on 3rd and 10 its a sure first down is honestly exaggerated. Yet you also seem to just gloss over the first 2 plays, including 2nd down where Allen has his pass knocked down to a wide open Samuel otherwise we would have already made the first down. On the 4th down, Shakir was wide open for a first and more off the snap and another WR was running open across the middle to the left too. And where I said the play outcome doesn't change was the 4th down play where we had wide open WR's for an easy first that we could not even attempt to get the ball to because Allen was under duress falling back to his right and forced to throw a prayer ball to a TE instead of the open WR's for an easy first. Who the WR's were were not why we didn't convert a first down on that final series.

Good post and agree with most of this

But the problem is...Josh had multiple WR's wide open that last series, including the 4th down play...and also Kincaid at TE. The route Allen threw too though was the TE, so who the other WR's were on the field on that play are totally irrelevant because the pass still went to the TE even though there were WR's wide open we did have were open, including off the snap. Those WR's could have been Jerry Rice and Randy Moss, it makes no difference to the play because Allen didn't have the ability to throw to any of the WR's we had, who again were open. Because we cheated the protection to the wrong direction, Allen had to bail to his right immediately off the snap and heave a prayer ball to the only guy he could which was a TE running wide open down field. Unfortunately, Kincaid didn't make the play...but unless you are advocating to draft a better TE, then who the WR's were on this play do not change the outcome of this play. No one is arguing against having a better WR for Allen...but, this false narrative that our WR's are why the Shakir TD attempt failed in 2023 or why we didn't convert a first on our final series in 2024 isn't accurate to those respective plays. If someone wants to make a case an upgrade in the WR room helps Josh score more points in a game we lost by 3, then fair case to present. But the WR's are not the reason we didn't convert these plays, they were wide open in each instance and things that happened on the OL or with Allen (including getting his pass batted at LOS) are why we didn't convert. We failed to get the ball to the wide open guys on the field to even give the WR's to make the play. WRs can’t catch balls not thrown to them, dont reach them, or that get deflected at the LOS. Come on...lol...we gave them the ball back while we were still losing the game with them needing 1 first down to end it

And it’s unfortunately why the play failed and our season ultimately ended on that drive.