Derrick Harvey shold be a Lock at 11

[Brandon]

But the Bills aren't short on cash by any means.

 

We'll have to pay a large signing bonus to whoever we draft at #11.

 

Is Kelsey's contract too big? Maybe, but why should that keep the Bills from taking someone they think they need? If he's gonna be a likely starter before the season's over and an eventual replacement for Schobel, then why wouldn't we want him?

 

Personally I think a receiver at #11 is a mistake. I don't think there is a WR in the draft good enough to be picked that high. I also don't think there is a big enough difference between the Sweed/Kelly/Thomas's and the guys in round two for the Bills to Have to draft one with their first pick.

 

There also isn't a TE that's good enough to be a #11.

 

So then you're down to DL and OL IMO. I think Harvey will likely be the best player available in that position at that time. And I think he is good enough to be taken that high.

 

They're not short on cash, but when you have to keep shoveling money into one area of the team year after year after year, eventually, you want to see some return on your investment. At some point, you have to show some faith in your front office and in the guys you've invested in. What if Harvey produces 3 sacks this year? Do you draft another DE in R1 next year? The top 4 DEs drafted last year produced a grand total of 9, 6 of which came from Gaines Adams.

[Brandon]

Not so fast. Hansen was a complete player. Not a superstar mind you, but a complete player. Paup was the defensive MVP before he got hurt. Neither of these guys were "complimentary pass rushers" to anybody.

 

I'd also point out that for all the complaining about Aaron Schobel (and I've done it, too), he actually leads ALL defensive ends drafted in R1 and 2 since 2000 with 67.5 career sacks. Of the rest, only 4 managed double digit sacks a year ago, and just 15 had 5 or more. There were 48 drafted in that period, BTW.

[Beerball]

Based on how the draft is starting to shake out, the best move for the Bills is go with with Derrick Harvey with the 11th pick in the 1st round. This guy is a freakish type of athlete, can bring heat from the edge and seems to have a performance history in college of being a run stopper. At 6'5" 271 he is bigger and along with the other improvements in our dline in the off-season should give us a very aggressive pass rush with just the front 4.

 

That still leaves us with the need of a complimentary WR to pair with Lee Evans. Nothing in this draft when we draft in the 2nd round is all that appealing and more importantly will not be a producer for the upcoming season. So here is my suggestion. Let's try and move our 2nd round pick for an established WR. Maybe a team like Atlanta for Michael Jenkins who I think is the bigger size WR we are looking for. I also think we should talk to Arizona about Anquan Boldin and see what they might be looking for. In the case of a Boldin, we could even dangle our 1st next year.

 

In the 3rd round I still believe we should persue John Carlson the TE from Notre Dame.

 

As always, looking for your feedback.

Good call. Sign him up.

[Joe Miner]

They're not short on cash, but when you have to keep shoveling money into one area of the team year after year after year, eventually, you want to see some return on your investment. At some point, you have to show some faith in your front office and in the guys you've invested in. What if Harvey produces 3 sacks this year? Do you draft another DE in R1 next year? The top 4 DEs drafted last year produced a grand total of 9, 6 of which came from Gaines Adams.

 

But you can play the what-if game with any draft position.

 

What if the receiver we draft at #11 catches 20 balls? Do we draft another one next year?

 

If Harvey is there at 11, IMO, he's certainly worth a long look, because he'll be in the running for the best player available.

 

I don't think any of the receiver options will be the best available player.

 

Which the Bills showed that they were willing to do that last year by taking TE in the third. They felt he was the best player available, even though the QB position looked to be mostly solid going into 2007.

 

Then again the Bills showed they were willing to draft by need when they picked up Whitner with the #8 pick.

 

So it will all come down to how high they have Harvey graded versus the need for other positions, and the depth of the draft.

 

But as I said, IMO, if Harvey and Sweed are there at #11, you'd have a hard time convincing me that we should take Sweed over Harvey.

[BuckeyeBill]

A.) Ohio State was a paper champion. They wouldn't have beaten anyone in the SEC.

 

Now that is pretty far from the truth, only losing 3 games in two and a half years and counting

[Brandon]

But you can play the what-if game with any draft position.

 

What if the receiver we draft at #11 catches 20 balls? Do we draft another one next year?

 

If Harvey is there at 11, IMO, he's certainly worth a long look, because he'll be in the running for the best player available.

 

I don't think any of the receiver options will be the best available player.

 

Which the Bills showed that they were willing to do that last year by taking TE in the third. They felt he was the best player available, even though the QB position looked to be mostly solid going into 2007.

 

Then again the Bills showed they were willing to draft by need when they picked up Whitner with the #8 pick.

 

So it will all come down to how high they have Harvey graded versus the need for other positions, and the depth of the draft.

 

But as I said, IMO, if Harvey and Sweed are there at #11, you'd have a hard time convincing me that we should take Sweed over Harvey.

 

You can indeed play what-if at any position (although DE production in year 1 is generally poor). The point, however, is that you eventually have to trust the guys you already have as well as your own judgement as a GM/staff. I don't know why they had such a bad season, but I do know that they were a respectable 13th and 8th in the NFL in sacks in 2005 and 2006, repectively. Luckily I'm not the GM, but if I were, I'd tend to give them another year to prove that '07 was an abberation, especially given all the money and picks that I've poured into it, while at the same time hedging my bets by adding someone in the middle of the draft.

 

BTW, I'm actually leaning slightly towards CB with that first pick, not WR.

[colin]

i don't see how harvey is good enough to take him over WR just because. he can play, but the only way he is worth that pick for

our team is if he is a sudden tenacious pass rusher. doesn't really look that to me.

 

if kelly is healthy, or thomas projects as a real stud, then they are absolutely worth drafting at the 11th pick.

 

just because some draft guy thinks they could be had at te 18th pick or whatever doesn't mean you can just force the 18th picking team to trade with you or anything, if you have no other player you want to draft over a guy and reasonable doubt that he'll be there with your highest available down trade partner, then taking him makes sense.

 

that's what indy did with freeney, and if the WR there is better than the other guys by enough, that's what we'll do this season.

[Bill from NYC]

I'd also point out that for all the complaining about Aaron Schobel (and I've done it, too), he actually leads ALL defensive ends drafted in R1 and 2 since 2000 with 67.5 career sacks. Of the rest, only 4 managed double digit sacks a year ago, and just 15 had 5 or more. There were 48 drafted in that period, BTW.

 

Schobel is a very good player. You will not see me complaining about him. He is the Larry Holmes of Buffalo; a top shelf player who was unlucky enough to follow the "greatest."

[obie_wan]

Nor am I.

 

DE has become a lot like TE or perhaps even CB, where unless you're getting a truly great player, he's probably just another guy. As I stated in another thread, there appears to be precious little middle ground at the position anymore. The guy is either really good or he sucks. The number of first round DEs over the last 10-12 years that fit into the latter category has been at least as high as with any other position, too.

 

That's not to say that I think Derrick Harvey sucks. Heck, I'm not even sure that I wouldn't select him at 11, although I'm leaning against it. I'm just not sure what we're really getting if we draft the guy. He certainly doesn't have the look of a truly elite prospect and that's what scares me.

 

but the masses want to select an injured WR -

 

either of which have not shown to be elite players at a position notorious for producing first round busts.

 

Maybe Rivers will be available - his risk is probably lower.

[Trader]

but the masses want to select an injured WR -

 

either of which have not shown to be elite players at a position notorious for producing first round busts.

 

Maybe Rivers will be available - his risk is probably lower.

 

 

There is another good reason to draft Harvey or Merling, It's simply this. There is a premium on Defensive Linemen. It's not likely the Bills will draft this high for the next few years. You have to get good DL when you can. Every other position seems to be plentiful in later rounds. Not so DL with pash rush abilility who have size.

 

The Bills will be a better team in 08 then will be in the bottom half of the Draft. You have to ge those top rated DL when you have the chance.

[MartyBall4Buffalo]

1. The 2007 Florida Gators had 9 different defensive starts from the 06 NC team.

 

2. Of those 9 starters 6 of them were front 7 players. 3 defensive linemen and 3 lb's.

 

3. Derrick Harvey has 20 1/2 sacks in 18 games. A little over a sack a game. Combined Ryan Denney/Chris Kelsay have 32.5 sacks in 79 games. Not even a half sack a game. Yes it's comparing nfl-college, but Harvey not only gets pressure on qb's.

 

4. On 47 rush attempts against him during the 07 season. Opposing rbs actually lost yardage.

 

5. When judging how ones game as an end translates into the pros. These are 3 aspects you should even consider before sacks.

 

1. How quick off the snap is he. A dend, who can't get out of his stance, before a tackle can kick step and balance if virtually useless as a pass rusher. Unless he can make up for this weakness, with very solid technique.

 

2. How well does he defend the run/Play with leverage. There's a tendancy for tall pass rushing ends to simply play high, and rely on their speed, as means to excell at the next level. Some of them, are so naturally gifted. It can work for a time. After a few years, it catches up to them. See Kearse, Javon. The #1 rule of playing perimeter defense is maintain your lane. Never rush to hard upfield too fast leaving your lane exposed to sweeps/counters/reverses. Unless it's a a pass play. Never crash to fast down the line.

 

3. Closing burst. Simply put it's the absolute difference between a hurried throw, or a qb sitting pretty in the pocket. You can even get by, with mediocre initial quickness, if you have exceptional closing burst. The very good ones have it. It's easy to spot. It's how guys like Schobel, can get caught seemingly running to far upfield, then in the next moment pick up a sack. It's why guys like Chris Kelsay, will never be a difference maker. He doesn't have the closing burst, to hurry throws, or pile up stats. A guy like strahan, isn't as fast as he used to be. He's never lost his ability to close on a play. It's why he's still such a force.

 

Just some of the small things I think are essential for any nfl caliber defensive end to have. 3 attributes I think Derrick Harvey possess. Take his former teammate Jarvis Moss for instance. When simply judging potential. One would point out that Moss would make a quality pass rusher. He's got long arms, he's quick, with good closing burst. Jarvis Moss is not as strong as Harvey. He's more one dimensional. Doesn't play with good leverage, and is easily ridden out of plays. Someone like Moss needed, a well rounded end across from him, in order to bulk up stats. He needed Harvey more then Harvey needed him.

 

There's just certain fundamental flaws, that you can spot in a players game. If Harvey was an end who didnt use leverage, and simply was just quick. A player who didn't play the run. I wouldn't sound the trumpets for the guy. I would just as fast toot the horn of a player like quentin groves. I look at Harvey, and I see a guy who can be a starter for years to come. At a position where the Bills are aging fast. Again vs the need of a complimentary wr, where there's value to be found in later rounds. Who on the importance factor isn't even in the same hemisphere.

[Simon]

When judging how ones game as an end translates into the pros. These are 3 aspects you should even consider before sacks.

 

1.......

 

 

Again vs the need of a complimentary wr, where there's value to be found in later rounds. Who on the importance factor isn't even in the same hemisphere.

 

Propers.....

[Peace Frog]

IMHO, I'd be happy if the Bills used their 1st rounder on whichever prospect was worth the 11th pick. The exception, of course, would be to not draft the few positions we don't need a 1st rounder, like RB or QB. If their 1st rounder happens to be DE, WR, C, LB, or CB, so be it. As long as that person was the best available of all of our need positions. No shat, you say? Well, as simple a philosophy as it is, some teams can't seem to follow it.

[NewEra]

While I believe Harvey will be there, I just can't see the Bills taking him. We have too much money tied up in Kelsay and Schobel and it just wouldnt be fiscally responsible. It would be extactic if we actually did make this move but I just can't see it happening.

 

On the note of Boldin I can't see Arizona even thinking of moving him for less than a first.

 

 

This is the NFL. Players can be cut. Not improving our pass rush will ensure us another year NOT in the playoffs. Get with the program.

[timmyk12]

1. The 2007 Florida Gators had 9 different defensive starts from the 06 NC team.

 

2. Of those 9 starters 6 of them were front 7 players. 3 defensive linemen and 3 lb's.

 

3. Derrick Harvey has 20 1/2 sacks in 18 games. A little over a sack a game. Combined Ryan Denney/Chris Kelsay have 32.5 sacks in 79 games. Not even a half sack a game. Yes it's comparing nfl-college, but Harvey not only gets pressure on qb's.

 

4. On 47 rush attempts against him during the 07 season. Opposing rbs actually lost yardage.

 

5. When judging how ones game as an end translates into the pros. These are 3 aspects you should even consider before sacks.

 

1. How quick off the snap is he. A dend, who can't get out of his stance, before a tackle can kick step and balance if virtually useless as a pass rusher. Unless he can make up for this weakness, with very solid technique.

 

2. How well does he defend the run/Play with leverage. There's a tendancy for tall pass rushing ends to simply play high, and rely on their speed, as means to excell at the next level. Some of them, are so naturally gifted. It can work for a time. After a few years, it catches up to them. See Kearse, Javon. The #1 rule of playing perimeter defense is maintain your lane. Never rush to hard upfield too fast leaving your lane exposed to sweeps/counters/reverses. Unless it's a a pass play. Never crash to fast down the line.

 

3. Closing burst. Simply put it's the absolute difference between a hurried throw, or a qb sitting pretty in the pocket. You can even get by, with mediocre initial quickness, if you have exceptional closing burst. The very good ones have it. It's easy to spot. It's how guys like Schobel, can get caught seemingly running to far upfield, then in the next moment pick up a sack. It's why guys like Chris Kelsay, will never be a difference maker. He doesn't have the closing burst, to hurry throws, or pile up stats. A guy like strahan, isn't as fast as he used to be. He's never lost his ability to close on a play. It's why he's still such a force.

 

Just some of the small things I think are essential for any nfl caliber defensive end to have. 3 attributes I think Derrick Harvey possess. Take his former teammate Jarvis Moss for instance. When simply judging potential. One would point out that Moss would make a quality pass rusher. He's got long arms, he's quick, with good closing burst. Jarvis Moss is not as strong as Harvey. He's more one dimensional. Doesn't play with good leverage, and is easily ridden out of plays. Someone like Moss needed, a well rounded end across from him, in order to bulk up stats. He needed Harvey more then Harvey needed him.

 

There's just certain fundamental flaws, that you can spot in a players game. If Harvey was an end who didnt use leverage, and simply was just quick. A player who didn't play the run. I wouldn't sound the trumpets for the guy. I would just as fast toot the horn of a player like quentin groves. I look at Harvey, and I see a guy who can be a starter for years to come. At a position where the Bills are aging fast. Again vs the need of a complimentary wr, where there's value to be found in later rounds. Who on the importance factor isn't even in the same hemisphere.

 

With that said why isn't this guy going #1. Are Long and Gholston that much better?

[NewEra]

We NEED a PASS RUSHER. Derrick Harvey is a pass rusher. If he's there, we NEED to take him. If we don't, we're gonna complain that McGee and Greer arent good enough, and look for another corner. If McGee and Greer have a pass rush, noone will be crying about our CB play

[In space no one can hear]

Id be ok taking a DE but I don't think Harvey is worth a 11 pick. I'm not convinced he'd be much of an upgrade to Kelsey.

 

 

Kelsay had 2.5 sacks last year.

 

 

Lesser players than Harvey would be an upgrade over Kelsay.

[MartyBall4Buffalo]

With that said why isn't this guy going #1. Are Long and Gholston that much better?

 

I haven't watched long, as much as I did Harvey/Gholston. Can't really say. What I have seen from him is he's relentless. He got I think 15-16 sacks playing end in a 3-4. His overall game. Can't comment. Gholston is a freak. Where as Harvey is your traditional 4-3 left end. Gholston played end/olb for the buckeyes. He's fast, quick, strong, smart. He's the total friggen package. A guy like Gholston has more value then any defensive player in this draft. I think the best overall prospect this year. He doesn't just look the part. He is the part. I think it comes down to their versatility. There's a lot of tweener type ends/olbs. Very few good 4-3 ends. A few situational pass rushers. That much better then Harvey? Maybe. Much more valuable, because of their versatility? definitely

[John from Riverside]

This is the NFL. Players can be cut. Not improving our pass rush will ensure us another year NOT in the playoffs. Get with the program.

 

The bills did improve their pass rush by improving their DT position.....so he doesn't need to get with the program he is intitled to his own opinion......

 

I personally think that DE WOULD be a great choice if Harvey is a difference maker.....I dont know enough about him to know that and am worried about drafting a wideout that will not immediately take pressure off of evans......

 

To me drafting Harvey and then trading back up to get whichever wideout drops (and one of them will) makes sense to me

[Brandon]

Kelsay had 2.5 sacks last year.

 

 

Lesser players than Harvey would be an upgrade over Kelsay.

 

That's probably true. Then again, Kelsay did tie a career low in terms of sacks and was playing on a problematic ankle much of the year. Denney wasn't healthy at any point in the year, also setting a career low in sacks. I've criticized the entire group as much as anyone over the years, but I also don't think that last year was entirely indicative of their ability. All three guys have proven in the past that they're fully capable of adding 3-4 sacks to their totals from last year.

 

As for Harvey being an upgrade, I think he might be. Then again, the guys taken in R1 last year sure didn't do much. Gaines Adams had 6 sacks. The next four guys off the board had 6 sacks combined. If the Bills do draft him, don't expect miracles out of him as a rookie. I would expect 2-4 sacks from Harvey in 2008 if he joins this team. That's about average for a rookie DE in R1 over the last several years.