The "Move the Bills to the AFC North" debate

[Ned Flanders]

First of all, it won't happen. Think Baltimore wants to move? Ummm, no.

 

Second, what is the motivation? "I can go to these games because Pittsburgh and Cleveland are close to me!" Yeah, right. Plenty of tickets available in either city. This is simply a moronic statement.

 

Third, "...we avoid the blackouts because Cleveland and Pittsburgh fans will travel to Buffalo." And the New England fans the past few years have been a pleasure, right?

 

Bottom line, stop the talk of moving out of the East. BEAT the Patriots, Dolphins, and Jets on a regular basis again and the rivalries will flourish. A rivalry is based on a long history of competitiveness between two entities. I’m sorry, but the Bills haven’t really held up their end of the competitiveness issue the last several years.

 

The talk of moving and finding new rivals is nothing more than an admission of failure. Stop it now.

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

You are righty-diddly-o, neighbor! Amen I say unto thee!

 

 

 

First of all, it won't happen.  Think Baltimore wants to move?  Ummm, no.

 

Second, what is the motivation?  "I can go to these games because Pittsburgh and Cleveland are close to me!"  Yeah, right.  Plenty of tickets available in either city.    This is simply a moronic statement.

 

Third, "...we avoid the blackouts because Cleveland and Pittsburgh fans will travel to Buffalo."  And the New England fans the past few years have been a pleasure, right?

 

Bottom line, stop the talk of moving out of the East.  BEAT the Patriots, Dolphins, and Jets on a regular basis again and the rivalries will flourish.  A rivalry is based on a long history of competitiveness between two entities.  I’m sorry, but the Bills haven’t really held up their end of the competitiveness issue the last several years.

 

The talk of moving and finding new rivals is nothing more than an admission of failure.  Stop it now.

867606[/snapback]

[Joey Balls]

First of all, it won't happen.  Think Baltimore wants to move?  Ummm, no.

 

Second, what is the motivation?  "I can go to these games because Pittsburgh and Cleveland are close to me!"  Yeah, right.  Plenty of tickets available in either city.    This is simply a moronic statement.

 

Third, "...we avoid the blackouts because Cleveland and Pittsburgh fans will travel to Buffalo."  And the New England fans the past few years have been a pleasure, right?

 

Bottom line, stop the talk of moving out of the East.  BEAT the Patriots, Dolphins, and Jets on a regular basis again and the rivalries will flourish.  A rivalry is based on a long history of competitiveness between two entities.  I’m sorry, but the Bills haven’t really held up their end of the competitiveness issue the last several years.

 

The talk of moving and finding new rivals is nothing more than an admission of failure.  Stop it now.

867606[/snapback]

 

 

 

I can't tell if this post is just based on ignorance (I've been to the last three Bills/ Browns games in Cleveland and it positively blows away in terms of atmosphere any rinky dink boring ass Miami Bills game) or more brain conditioning courtesy of Ralph and the local media in a lame attempt to prop up this non rivalry.

 

 

If Miami and Buffalo is still such a great rivalry how come there are 5000 seats left?

[East Brady]

I always thought the rivalry was really between the Bills and Don Shula......

 

Ever since Shula retired, the importance of beating Miami has somewhat faded a little every year.....

[apuszczalowski]

I always thought the rivalry was really between the Bills and Don Shula......

 

Ever since Shula retired, the importance of beating Miami has somewhat faded a  little every year.....

867633[/snapback]

I always found it a Kelly Marino Bills Dolphins Rivalry. Coincidentily, it was also the last time both teams were regularly competitive.

 

When Both teams become compettive again, the rivalry will be reborn

[dave mcbride]

I can't tell if this post is just based on ignorance (I've been to the last three Bills/ Browns games in Cleveland and it positively blows away in terms of atmosphere any rinky dink boring ass Miami Bills game) or more brain conditioning courtesy of Ralph and the local media in a lame attempt to prop up this non rivalry.

If Miami and Buffalo is still such a great rivalry how come there are 5000 seats left?

867621[/snapback]

 

Um ... the last time the Bills played in Cleveland was 11 years ago, and it was an early season Monday night game with good weather. The Browns were coming off a playoff season, and the Bills were still in their glory years. Prior to that, if your math is correct, you must have witnessed that scintillating 42-0 rout against a 3-13 Browns team in 1990 (presumably most of the Browns' fans had left the stadium by the end of the third quarter), and the playoff game in 1989. Neither the Monday night game nor the playoff game were typical. Moreover, the Browns have been for many years tied with Arizona as the worst team in the league, and have actually fielded more boring teams than the Cardinals. So I can't say I look forward to watching the Bills stop the indomitable Charlie Frye or whatever lackluster successor arrives next on the scene.

 

Bottom line: the Bills' divisional status is totally fine, and moving them to the central division will result in two rivalries that may one day match the rivalries the Bills now have v. the Dolphins and the Jets or Patriots (take your pick). The chance of Buffalo selling out against Cincy (no matter how good they are) after November 15 in any season is practically nil.

 

As to one of your other points about the Dolphins' rivalry: won/loss records. This is sophistry. Of course the Bills regarded Miami as a hated rival because of the constant pounding they took from them in the 1970s. I loved those games and cared about them more than the other ones *precisely* because of the streak. This isn't Sampras/Agassi; it's two diametrically opposed cities. It's about as good a rivalry as the Bills are going to get. Indeed, one can't name another rivalry that the Bills possess that approaches it.

 

Physical proximity isn't necessarily productive of rivalries in any case. The Pittsburgh/Cincinnati and Bears/Lions "rivalries" (two sets of teams, moreover, that have been in the same division with each other for decades) are no match for Dallas/Washington, Broncos/Raiders, Dallas/Giants, Jets/Dolphins, and KC/Raiders. The difference is that these teams don't need ringers from their opponents' hometowns to sell out their stadium. Unfortunately, the Bills do.

[Gordio]

I can't tell if this post is just based on ignorance (I've been to the last three Bills/ Browns games in Cleveland and it positively blows away in terms of atmosphere any rinky dink boring ass Miami Bills game) or more brain conditioning courtesy of Ralph and the local media in a lame attempt to prop up this non rivalry.

If Miami and Buffalo is still such a great rivalry how come there are 5000 seats left?

867621[/snapback]

 

 

The last three times buffalo has played in Cleveland was 1995(the last year the old browns played before moving to baltimore, 1990 & 1985. In 1985 there were 48,000 fans in attendance. 1995 must of been an absolute ugly atmosphere since the fans knew the team was moving the next year, 1990 we beat them 42-0 & in 1985 the stadium was 1/2 full.

 

Please stop making stupid comments to get everybody riled up here. You just make yourself look like a fuggin idiot.

[muddy waters]

I say a move to the North would be phenomenal. C'mon the old AFL rivalries have passed. The North teams -- especially the Steelers and Browns -- are the teams with fans, cities and style of play that are most similar to the Bills. If you put the Bills in this division, new rivalries would develop fast. Maybe the Rothilsberger-Losman comparisons would rival the the Marino-Kelly comparisons. Let's face it, the Buffalo-Miami rivalry is not there anymore. Let's move on.

[Gordio]

I forgot about the 89 playoff game, the atmosphere was probably great there, but any game that had those kind of stakes would be great to go to.

[ganesh]

I always thought the rivalry was really between the Bills and Don Shula......

 

Ever since Shula retired, the importance of beating Miami has somewhat faded a  little every year.....

867633[/snapback]

 

And the Marino Vs Kelly match up was always intriguing...

 

Then we had Flutie going against Jimmy Johnson (the old Miami Boston College connection).

 

I think since then this rivalry had gone down...I think Fiedler won 4-5 times straight over us. Then we are 4-1 in the last 5 games...

[Dan]

We should move to the NFC west. We'd be playoff contenders right now.

[toeknee24]

First of all, it won't happen.  Think Baltimore wants to move?  Ummm, no.

 

Second, what is the motivation?  "I can go to these games because Pittsburgh and Cleveland are close to me!"  Yeah, right.  Plenty of tickets available in either city.    This is simply a moronic statement.

 

Third, "...we avoid the blackouts because Cleveland and Pittsburgh fans will travel to Buffalo."  And the New England fans the past few years have been a pleasure, right?

 

Bottom line, stop the talk of moving out of the East.  BEAT the Patriots, Dolphins, and Jets on a regular basis again and the rivalries will flourish.  A rivalry is based on a long history of competitiveness between two entities.  I’m sorry, but the Bills haven’t really held up their end of the competitiveness issue the last several years.

 

The talk of moving and finding new rivals is nothing more than an admission of failure.  Stop it now.

867606[/snapback]

 

 

I would love a move the the AFC North, it makes complete sense. A division rival should not be as far away as Miami is.

[Matt in KC]

Or we could be in our own division, and sit there and play with ourselves six weeks each year, and always make the playoffs. That would be great!

[Prognastic]

Yup, follow the Colts credo; If you cant whip your opposition, move to an easy division and celebrate winning streaks and Division championships year after year.

[Buftex]

I can honestly say, I still think the Bills/Dolphins rivalry is significant...maybe it is an age thing. I have been a Bills fanatic the last 35 years or so...my earliest memories of any rivalry the Bills had, with anyone, was the 20 consecutive losses, spread out over 10 seasons, in the decade of the seventies. After that, the Bills turned the table on the Dolphins...no, the Bills didn't beat the Dolphins 20 times back, but they won most of the time in the 1990's, and certainly won everytime it counted for anything...but then there was Jimmy Johnson, the prick leader of the loathsome Cowboys teams that smeared the Bills in the Super Bowls, leading the Dolphins...beating them in the playoffs, spelling the begining of the end of the best period of modern Bills football (ie: post AFL days)

 

Now, both teams are struggling, but, if nothing else comes from this season, a sweep of the Dolphins would make it memorable for me. Those who say that the Patriots are our fiercest rivals now are too young to remember...besides, the Bills and Patriots (or the Jets for that matter) have never really been good at the same time. But, in the 1990's, the Dolpins were always a game or two behind Buffalo...we would blow them out when they got close (1990 AFC Championship game), or tear their heart out (Kelly's td run at the end of the 1989 opener).

 

A Browns rivalry? Please...I think the Bills and Bengals have a better rivalry.

[BuffOrange]

The last three times buffalo has played in Cleveland was 1995(the last year the old browns played before moving to baltimore, 1990 & 1985.  In 1985 there were 48,000 fans in attendance.  1995 must of been an absolute ugly atmosphere since the fans knew the team was moving the next year, 1990 we beat them 42-0 & in 1985 the stadium was 1/2 full. 

 

Please stop making stupid comments to get everybody riled up here.  You just make yourself look like a fuggin idiot.

867663[/snapback]

 

Nobody knew the Browns were moving at the time of the 95 game. Nice to know you have your 'fuggin' facts straight though.

[Kuile]

If anyone was going to move out of the AFC EAST it be Miami. It be nice if the NFL would add in rival games, like college football. That way the Bills could play the Browns and Steelers once a year.

[jester43]

i have already proposed a solution to this problem. COMBINE the divisions and have four eight-team divisions in the nfl. you play every team in the division ONCE a year, like in college.

 

there could, however, be a single home and home series per year that rotates around your division, so that one year, for example, we'd play the fish twice, then the next year, the steelers, then the pats....etc. our divison would consist of the afc east and north. that would be a fun division.

 

so that takes care of 8 games out of your schedule. the other 8 can be split: four in the other division (the afc "southwest," for lack of a better term). and the other four in the nfc.

 

 

there are some huge advantages to this:

1. with only two division champs and four wild cards, you all but eliminate the chance of 8-8 or 9-7 getting in, as sometimes happens in the weak-ass 8 division set-up we have now. the current system sucks as 10-6 teams have been known to miss the playoffs while some crap team gets in by virtue of being 8-8 or 9-7 in a terrible four-team divison. i freeeeeking hate that the nfl allows this.

 

2. you WOULD cultivate some new rivalries, which i also think would be great for the bills and their fans. i'm pretty sure joey balls is a troll, but i also would love to have a steeler and browns game to look forward to each year. but this fish IS a reakl rivalry and i would hate to lose it. and besides,imagine the excitement surrounding the fish or jets game if you know you're only getting your mitts obn them once a year, and only get them in your house every two seasons (unless of course, it was your "home-and-home" year with them).

 

i'm pretty sure if this system existed, we'd not be worrying about the blackout this weekend.

[apuszczalowski]

When the Bills start winning again the rivalries will come back. Its hard to keep rivalries going when one team is good and the other horrible.

 

As for moving to the North, the only reason to do that would be to get out of a good division and get to play crappyier teams more often. giving us an easier chance of making the playoffs. Just imagine going into a season and getting to depend on 2 wins by facing the browns twice a year. The only team out of place in the AFC East is Miami and they should be in the south with jacksonville and tenessee. For the comment saying the dolphins should be a main rival due to locations, what about the Cowboys and Giants or Redskins? they are pretty far from each other and have a pretty good rivalry

[OCinBuffalo]

A real Bills fan speaks...bump! Yes, Shula was on the officiating committe(my mom never stops with that one - those will be her last words ) Yes, we have a closer proximity to CLE, CIN, and PIT. SO F'ING WHAT????

 

Regardless, I got a lucky break work-wise so I am going to buy a ticket at the gate this weekend cause it's what I have been doing since I was 6 - not buying tickets - but being at the Dolphins home game come hell or high water no matter where I am working/living!!!!

 

Why? If you have to ask - start rooting for the Cowboys - and Joe Buck for that matter.

 

Seriously - it's not enough that we are starting to come around - now we have tools acting like it's the end of the world that we don't sell out a 75,000 seat stadium with 200,000? people living in the city.

 

Philly never has a packed stadium - sure it's always a sell out - but there are always swaths of empty seats. Between scalpers(I don't mean bums outside the subway stop, I mean people who do this for a job) and corporate seat ownership, attendance has everything to do with who is hooking up who - or whose boss is happy/pissed, and very little to do with team spirit.

 

In that sense thank God for Buffalo - at least there is one team whose attendance is about performance on the field; and not what happens in the office Mon-Fri or if it was a good week for the outfit guys, or if some Partner's wife is having an early afternoon dinner party.

 

I can honestly say, I still think the Bills/Dolphins rivalry is significant...maybe it is an age thing.  I have been a Bills fanatic the last 35 years or so...my earliest memories of any rivalry the Bills had, with anyone, was the 20 consecutive losses, spread out over 10 seasons, in the decade of the seventies. After that, the Bills turned the table on the Dolphins...no, the Bills didn't beat the Dolphins 20 times back, but they won most of the time in the 1990's, and certainly won everytime it counted for anything...but then there was Jimmy Johnson, the prick leader of the loathsome Cowboys teams that smeared the Bills in the Super Bowls, leading the Dolphins...beating them in the playoffs, spelling the begining of the end of the best period of modern Bills football (ie: post AFL days)

 

Now, both teams are struggling, but, if nothing else comes from this season, a sweep of the Dolphins would make it memorable for me.  Those who say that the Patriots are our fiercest rivals now are too young to remember...besides, the Bills and Patriots (or the Jets for that matter) have never really been good at the same time.  But, in the 1990's, the Dolpins were always a game or two behind Buffalo...we would blow them out when they got close (1990 AFC Championship game), or tear their heart out (Kelly's td run at the end of the 1989 opener). 

 

A Browns rivalry?  Please...I think the Bills and Bengals have a better rivalry.

868202[/snapback]

[Joey Balls]

Um ... the last time the Bills played in Cleveland was 11 years ago, and it was an early season Monday night game with good weather. The Browns were coming off a playoff season, and the Bills were still in their glory years. Prior to that, if your math is correct, you must have witnessed that scintillating 42-0 rout against a 3-13 Browns team in 1990 (presumably most of the Browns' fans had left the stadium by the end of the third quarter), and the playoff game in 1989.  Neither the Monday night game nor the playoff game were typical.  Moreover, the Browns have been for many years tied with Arizona as the worst team in the league, and have actually fielded more boring teams than the Cardinals. So I can't say I look forward to watching the Bills stop the indomitable Charlie Frye or whatever lackluster successor arrives next on the scene.

 

Bottom line: the Bills' divisional status is totally fine, and moving them to the central division will result in two rivalries that may one day match the rivalries the Bills now have v. the Dolphins and the Jets or Patriots (take your pick). The chance of Buffalo selling out against Cincy (no matter how good they are) after November 15 in any season is practically nil.

 

As to one of your other points about the Dolphins' rivalry: won/loss records. This is sophistry.  Of course the Bills regarded Miami as a hated rival because of the constant pounding they took from them in the 1970s.  I loved those games and cared about them more than the other ones *precisely* because of the streak. This isn't Sampras/Agassi; it's two diametrically opposed cities. It's about as good a rivalry as the Bills are going to get. Indeed, one can't name another rivalry that the Bills possess that approaches it. 

 

Physical proximity isn't necessarily productive of rivalries in any case. The Pittsburgh/Cincinnati and Bears/Lions "rivalries" (two sets of teams, moreover, that have been in the same division with each other for decades) are no match for Dallas/Washington, Broncos/Raiders, Dallas/Giants, Jets/Dolphins, and KC/Raiders.  The difference is that these teams don't need ringers from their opponents' hometowns to sell out their stadium. Unfortunately, the Bills do.

867659[/snapback]

 

 

You should only be shot for using the word "sophistry" on a football message board McBride. You and Leah have been good to me over the years so I'll let it slide this time but next time...

 

As for the rest of your post c'mon Dave! I give you more credit than a doofus like gordio but some of your points don't mesh. I'm still trying to make heads or tails out of your Cleveland comment. Of course the three games were atypical....that's precisely because we didn't play the Browns that often. How could they be typical? I'm just saying the atmosphere was really great. I doubt very much they have atmosphere like that at Pro Player before a Fins/Bills game.

 

As for remembering that embarassing string of defeats to Miami in the seventies I'm a little older than you and the only one I remember was in '79 when I attended the Dempsey miss game where Csonka plunged it into the endzone for the win.

 

That's it....that's the only one. I don't think any of them were truly as memorable as you make them out to be. I think our only real "rival" in the division would be the Jets and that's basically because of the large amount of moronic Long Island fratboys that attend who make the game unbearable. Patriots? Who cares?

 

How could we have another rival? We've only been playing the same three teams six times a year for what is decades now.

 

 

As for your claim that most rivalries are not geographical by nature that's nonsense. Red Sox/Yankees, Chicago/Green Bay, Montreal/Toronto? You even failed to mention the Browns/Steelers rivalry, a rivalry between two cities a hundred miles apart that far outshines the rinky dink Miami/Bills supposed rivalry. Sabres/Leafs? Obviously of more interest to Buffalo sports fans that tomorrow's game against the Dolphins.

 

 

So we're stuck in this boring division for the sole reason that Ralphie couldn't get use of the Orange Bowl back in '58 from the city of Miami so we all gotta pay for his grudge against the city of Miami.

[Joey Balls]

Nobody knew the Browns were moving at the time of the 95 game.  Nice to know you have your 'fuggin' facts straight though.

868207[/snapback]

 

 

No you're right nobody really did. My sister and I struck up a conversation during that Monday Night game with two really diehard Browns fans (are there any other?) in front of us and they absolutely dismissed any talk of the Browns moving at the time.

[Zulu Cthulhu]

I say a move to the North would be phenomenal.  C'mon the old AFL rivalries have passed. The North teams -- especially the Steelers and Browns -- are the teams with fans, cities and style of play that are most similar to the Bills. If you put the Bills in this division, new rivalries would develop fast.  Maybe the Rothilsberger-Losman comparisons would rival the the Marino-Kelly comparisons.  Let's face it, the Buffalo-Miami rivalry is not there anymore. Let's move on.

867667[/snapback]

 

Sooo.. why would these rivalries develop exactly? I don't see any real REASONING in this little spray of brain diarrhea. Because the cities of Buffalo, Pitt, and Cleveland are "similar" new rivalries will develop fast. Well sorry to spoil your party, but our biggest current rivalry (albeit not as heated as it once was) flies right in the face of this argument.

[JDG]

1995 must of been an absolute ugly atmosphere since the fans knew the team was moving the next year,

867663[/snapback]

 

I was actually in Cleveland during that game.... and the atmosphere was actually pretty good as "the announcement" wouldn't come for a couple more weeks yet.

 

Interestingly enough, the announcement was made the same day that Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated. The next day, the headline of the Cleveland Plain Dealer was "Modell Moving Browns to Baltimore" - the Rabin assassination was below the fold.

 

I sometimes joke to my Cleveland friends, when they wonder why their team has had so much bad luck in its resurrection that they are suffering from "the curse of Yitzhak Rabin" and that the Browns will never win a Super Bowl until there is peace between Israel and Palestine.... ;-)

 

JDG

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

It is fascinating, but at that point not only did no one expect the Browns to move, also at that point many pundits, considering how well the Browns had done in 1994, had picked them to be the sleeper team for the playoffs that year. Those who watched it on MNF will remember that the broadcast started with a long Drew-Carey themed circle jerk to Cleveland (his show was just starting on ABC) that did not happen to mention whom the Browns were playing that night.

 

That game rocked... Jimbo threw a late TD to Reed to win it, if I remember correctly. He also threw one to one of those interchangeable white guys we kept signing hoping to find the next Don Beebe... the name is escaping me (it is more elusive than the receiver in question).....

 

 

I was actually in Cleveland during that game.... and the atmosphere was actually pretty good as "the announcement" wouldn't come for a couple more weeks yet.

 

Interestingly enough, the announcement was made the same day that Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated.  The next day, the headline of the Cleveland Plain Dealer was "Modell Moving Browns to Baltimore" - the Rabin assassination was below the fold.

 

I sometimes joke to my Cleveland friends, when they wonder why their team has had so much bad luck in its resurrection that they are suffering from "the curse of Yitzhak Rabin" and that the Browns will never win a Super Bowl until there is peace between Israel and Palestine.... ;-)

 

JDG

868729[/snapback]

[BuffOrange]

It is fascinating, but at that point not only did no one expect the Browns to move, also at that point many pundits, considering how well the Browns had done in 1994, had picked them to be the sleeper team for the playoffs that year. Those who watched it on MNF will remember that the broadcast started with a long Drew-Carey themed circle jerk to Cleveland (his show was just starting on ABC) that did not happen to mention whom the Browns were playing that night.

 

That game rocked... Jimbo threw a late TD to Reed to win it, if I remember correctly. He also threw one to one of those interchangeable white guys we kept signing hoping to find the next Don Beebe... the name is escaping me (it is more elusive than the receiver in question).....

868889[/snapback]

 

Justin Armour(sp?) And the Browns were def. a popular SB pick that year. They won on a Christie FG though after he had originally missed but it didn't count because Carl Banks (or maybe Pepper Johnson....1 of Bellicheck's Giants cronnies) called time out just before the snap

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

Justin Armour(sp?)    And the Browns were def. a popular SB pick that year.  They won on a Christie FG though after he had originally missed but it didn't count because Carl Banks (or maybe Pepper Johnson....1 of Bellicheck's Giants cronnies) called time out just before the snap 

868893[/snapback]

 

 

Yes, Justin Armour! Good memory.

 

I knew it wasn'T Brad Lamb, but he was the only one I could think of.

 

So the TD pass to Reed pulled them close late?

[Oneonta Buffalo Fan]

WE WILL NEVER MOVE.