I dont care about his numbers.....my hat goes

[Wraith]

Of course, BR was a rookie. JP Losman is a third-year player

 

779897[/snapback]

 

Do you really want me to drag out Matt Hasselbeck's third year numbers? Or even the first half of his fourth year? Eh, he's a bad example anyway, he only started in last years Superbowl.

[Alaska Darin]

Do you really want me to drag out Matt Hasselbeck's third year numbers? Or even the first half of his fourth year? Eh, he's a bad example anyway, he only started in last years Superbowl.

779905[/snapback]

That's enough of that. All QBs develop the same way, just like every rookie center should start the Super Bowl.

[Catholic Guilt]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with this mishmash.  Losman took every snap in this game.  Sometimes, the best way to win is to simply do your job without trying to force a spectaular play.  He is doing a fine job and you can't take that away from him.

779900[/snapback]

 

I'm afraid some posters on this board will still disagree...

[JDG]

Do you really want me to drag out Matt Hasselbeck's third year numbers? Or even the first half of his fourth year? Eh, he's a bad example anyway, he only started in last years Superbowl.

779905[/snapback]

 

O.k. Losman's first 10 games vs. Hasselbeck's first 10 games:

 

Sub-50% completion games:

Losman - 4

Hasselbeck - 2 (albeit two more at 50% exactly)

 

Sub-100 yard games:

Losman - 3

Hasselbeck - 1

 

200+ yard passing games:

Losman - 1

Hasselbeck - 3

 

If you want to bring up Hasselbeck as an example of a QB who was bad in his first 10 starts, then you are presumably also suggesting that Losman has been worse than bad..... which has been my point.

 

We'll see how Losman does over the next two weeks playing at home. If we can beat the Jets this Sunday, we'll be 2-1 in the division, which will feel very, very, good......

 

JDG

[JinWPB]

O.k. Losman's first 10 games vs. Hasselbeck's first 10 games:

 

I don't think you can compare players like this. Different teams, different situations. In general we will know soon enough if JPL has it or not.

What if Brady had spent the last four years a Saint or Archie Manning had been a Cowboy. Its' all speculation.Would we have gone to the Superbowl last year with Ben? Sorry ,don't think so.

[Rockinon]

Here we go again!

[MDH]

Of course, BR was a rookie.  JP Losman is a third-year player

"Who is Chad Pennington?" 

 

779897[/snapback]

 

Of course JP isn't just making one read and, as far as I know, never has been.

[JDG]

I don't think you can compare players like this. Different teams, different situations. In general we will know soon enough if JPL has it or not.

What if Brady had spent the last four years a Saint or Archie Manning had been a Cowboy. Its' all speculation.Would we have gone to the Superbowl last year with Ben? Sorry ,don't think so.

779938[/snapback]

 

 

There's truth to that... but it wasn't my idea to compare the two in the first place!

 

JDG

[Orton's Arm]

Thanks for securing the #2 on my ignore list.  It's been awhile since I've gotten to add someone.

You mean you'll stop responding to my posts with emotional drivel or lame attempts at clever put-downs? And this is supposed to bother me because . . . ?

[Orton's Arm]

You do realize that in Ben's first year as a starter he had, essentially, ONE read to make.  If that guy wasn't open he threw it to his check down guy.  If this is your concern about Losman why are you comparing him to BR who wasn't making real reads until his second full season as a starter?

 

Also, tell me this.  Which QBs, in their first 10 starts, "showed the ability to make complex decisions quickly?"  You've written the guy off before you've ever given him a chance.  Not many here are "Losman lovers", all I see are a bunch of fans who are willing to give the guy a chance to prove himself before they throw him under the bus.  If the coaching staff doesn't have much faith in him after his 30th start and call the same type of game they did on Sunday you may have a point.  But until then they're doing the right thing in brining him along slowly.

779881[/snapback]

You've presented your case quite reasonably, and you seem more objective than most other Losman supporters.

 

The difference I see between Roethlisberger and Losman is this: Roethlisberger did a solid job of establishing himself as a good decision maker at the college level; while Losman may have been drafted more for his athletic potential.

 

It's true that as a rookie, Roethlisberger hadn't fully memorized the playbook; which is why he'd either throw the ball to his first read, or not at all. This situation doesn't really apply to Losman, who didn't start getting real playing time until he'd had ample opportunity to learn the playbook.

 

So the question then becomes, if you have an athletic college quarterback without a proven track record as a pocket passer, how much of a pocket passer can you expect him to become at the professional level? How much patience is enough, and how much is too much? The Falcons are in a similar situation with Vick. Nobody doubts Vick's mobility or his arm strength, but he'll never be able to do what Peyton Manning or Tom Brady can do. Is that something the Falcons are prepared to live with because of Vick's speed, or will they need to move in a different direction?

[Ramius]

CRIPPLE FIGHT!!!!

 

Holcombs Arm: TIMM-MAH!!!!

 

JDG: JIMM-MAH!!!

[Dibs]

One of the fundamental differences between the Losman-optimists and the Losman-pessimists is that the Losman optimists cite Losman's experience in terms of games started.    The Losman-pessimists cite Losman's experience in terms of his years of experience, and blah blah blah....

779845[/snapback]

No.

The fundamental differences between the Losman-optimists and the Losman-pessimists is....

JLP-Os, when posting initially(not responding) tend to state how "JPL looks like he is improving & we might have a good one"(although I honestly cannot recall hardly any posts being this openly positive on JPL). This tends not to be offensive to anyone since JPL has in fact appeared to be playing far better than last year.

Their motive for said initial post is obvious that they are encouraged by his improvements & are hoping for his further developments.

 

JLP-Ps, when posting tend to state JPLs weaknesses often totally ignoring his improvement.

Their motive for said post is...???? The only thing I can think of is that the pessimists believe he should be far better at this point in his career than he is & that he is a slow developer and that every other poster should see this 'truth'.

 

The main difference really is that the pessimist draws a defensive reaction from not only the optimist but also those of us who are neutral & are happy to wait & see.

Or to put it a different way....the pessimist gets the crap throwing started so we end up with 10 page threads of entertainment.

[Scraps]

You've presented your case quite reasonably, and you seem more objective than most other Losman supporters. 

 

The difference I see between Roethlisberger and Losman is this: Roethlisberger did a solid job of establishing himself as a good decision maker at the college level; while Losman may have been drafted more for his athletic potential. 

 

It's true that as a rookie, Roethlisberger hadn't fully memorized the playbook; which is why he'd either throw the ball to his first read, or not at all.  This situation doesn't really apply to Losman, who didn't start getting real playing time until he'd had ample opportunity to learn the playbook.

 

So the question then becomes, if you have an athletic college quarterback without a proven track record as a pocket passer, how much of a pocket passer can you expect him to become at the professional level?  How much patience is enough, and how much is too much?  The Falcons are in a similar situation with Vick.  Nobody doubts Vick's mobility or his arm strength, but he'll never be able to do what Peyton Manning or Tom Brady can do.  Is that something the Falcons are prepared to live with because of Vick's speed, or will they need to move in a different direction?

780026[/snapback]

 

I'd rather think in terms of Favre, Steve Young or John Elway. All were athletic QBs but none of them won big until they learned to rely on their team mates instead of doing everything themselves. I don't think anyone is confusing Losman with Vick.

[BoondckCL]

CRIPPLE FIGHT!!!!

 

Holcombs Arm: TIMM-MAH!!!!

 

JDG: JIMM-MAH!!!

780038[/snapback]

 

No we have to let them fight it out.

 

 

 

 

 

I haven't read the first 9 pages, i really don't care about another qb thread, but has it all been people agreeing with eachother like they are ESPN analysts on how the bills are going to do this season, or is it the usual arguments?

[Dibs]

No we have to let them fight it out.

I haven't read the first 9 pages, i really don't care about another qb thread, but has it all been people agreeing with eachother like they are ESPN analysts on how the bills are going to do this season, or is it the usual arguments?

780070[/snapback]

Usual arguements.

[Ramius]

No we have to let them fight it out.

I haven't read the first 9 pages, i really don't care about another qb thread, but has it all been people agreeing with eachother like they are ESPN analysts on how the bills are going to do this season, or is it the usual arguments?

780070[/snapback]

 

Heres 10 pages summed into a few paragraphs.

 

The usual. Thread started saying how JP has showed some definite improvement. Most of us see this and think if he continues improving he could be good. most of us are impressed in the differences in 2006 JP as compared to 2005 JP.

 

JDG and holcombs arm are continually and irrationally trashing JP with every chance they get. Its grasping at straws because they have an agenda against JP. Both are saying JP still sucks. holcombs arm has pulled more random numbers out of his ass in an attempt to "statistically" prove JP sucks and Nall should start, even though his arguement holds no water and has been disproven in roughly 1/2 of the posts in the thread.

 

same old stojan differrnt day

[Orton's Arm]

No.

The fundamental differences between the Losman-optimists and the Losman-pessimists is....

JLP-Os, when posting initially(not responding) tend to state how "JPL looks like he is improving & we might have a good one"(although I honestly cannot recall hardly any posts being this openly positive on JPL).  This tends not to be offensive to anyone since JPL has in fact appeared to be playing far better than last year. 

Their motive for said initial post is obvious that they are encouraged by his improvements & are hoping for his further developments.

 

JLP-Ps, when posting tend to state JPLs weaknesses often totally ignoring his improvement. 

Their motive for said post is...????  The only thing I can think of is that the pessimists believe he should be far better at this point in his career than he is & that he is a slow developer and that every other poster should see this 'truth'.

 

The main difference really is that the pessimist draws a defensive reaction from not only the optimist but also those of us who are neutral & are happy to wait & see. 

Or to put it a different way....the pessimist gets the crap throwing started so we end up with 10 page threads of entertainment.

780041[/snapback]

I went back and reread the first three pages of this thread. It started off with comments from people who were evidently very happy about Losman's performance. Someone called Losman's performance "solid," so JDG responded by asking, "if 83 yards is 'solid,' I'd hate to see what you think a 'mediocre' day looks like...."

 

This initiated an argument over whether Losman's performance was solid or mediocre; and whether it was or wasn't Roethlisberger-like. Joe Six Pack, a Losman supporter, was the first to throw in a personal insult. The next personal insult came from Ramius, another Losman supporter; and the third came from Risin, who just so happens to support Losman. On the other hand, many Losman supporters were able to rise above the kindergarten level, and discuss their views with intelligence and maturity. The last thing I want to do is lump all Losman supporters together. But the reason the discussion turned into a heated argument was because some Losman supporters decided to make it one.

 

A few of Losman's supporters have one way of looking at him, and think that anyone who sees him differently is either blind, stupid, or motivated by a hidden agenda. You don't have to be any of these things to be unimpressed with Losman's performance against Miami. Some people saw a performance that was solid, mistake-free, and Roethlisberger-like, while others saw 84 passing yards and a punter with a very sore foot.

[BoondckCL]

Heres 10 pages summed into a few paragraphs.

 

The usual. Thread started saying how JP has showed some definite improvement. Most of us see this and think if he continues improving he could be good. most of us are impressed in the differences in 2006 JP as compared to 2005 JP.

 

JDG and holcombs arm are continually and irrationally trashing JP with every chance they get. Its grasping at straws because they have an agenda against JP. Both are saying JP still sucks. holcombs arm has pulled more random numbers out of his ass in an attempt to "statistically" prove JP sucks and Nall should start, even though his arguement holds no water and has been disproven in roughly 1/2 of the posts in the thread.

 

same old stojan differrnt day

780184[/snapback]

 

That's what i thought.

 

 

 

 

 

LETS GO JP!!!!!!!!

[Orton's Arm]

That's what i thought.

LETS GO JP!!!!!!!!

780209[/snapback]

What on earth is Rian Lindell doing on your probationary list? He's a perfectly good kicker, and has yet to miss a FG this season. Also, why is McCargo on your list? If you're willing to give Losman three years to develop, why not give McCargo at least three games?

[RuntheDamnBall]

I'd rather think in terms of Favre, Steve Young or John Elway.  All were athletic QBs but none of them won big until they learned to rely on their team mates instead of doing everything themselves.  I don't think anyone is confusing Losman with Vick.

780047[/snapback]

Steve Young: total failure. That guy wasn't good until like his fifth year. As we know, any QB who isn't pro bowl caliber by year 3 is worthless.

 

Now let's play Nall ball! Winning sucks! Yee haw!

[BoondckCL]

What on earth is Rian Lindell doing on your probationary list?  He's a perfectly good kicker, and has yet to miss a FG this season.  Also, why is McCargo on your list?  If you're willing to give Losman three years to develop, why not give McCargo at least three games?

780215[/snapback]

 

Rian Lindell is on the list because everytime i take him off he ends up !@#$ing up a kick that usually ends up costing us the game, so i keep him on probation for luck.

 

McCargo is on there because he is a bust. HAHA. No seriously he seemed like a logical choice since he is the weakest of all of the DT's on the roster next to Tim Anderson. He just got on this week, so hopefully he can jump off quickly.

 

I was thinking of adding posters from this board that piss me off.

[Simon]

The difference I see between Roethlisberger and Losman is this:

Ummmm, you might also want to consider the situations they've been in since they entered teh league.

Like P'burgh's dominant OLine in front of Roethlisberger vs Losman's cheesecloth

Or the stability of the Stiller organization vs the Bills asylum

Or the deepest stable of RB's I've ever seen vs Willis and some role players

Or WR corps' with the likes of Ward, Burress, RandleEl, etc vs Lee Evans

Or Heath Miller at TE

Or Danny "NewHampshire" Kreider at FB

[BuffOrange]

All,

HA & JDG have provided valid points & insightful opinions (agree or disagree) with no personal attacks; to which the replies have been an embarassing disgrace. That is all.

[Orton's Arm]

Steve Young: total failure.  That guy wasn't good until like his fifth year.  As we know, any QB who isn't pro bowl caliber by year 3 is worthless.

So if you use a first round pick on a guy, you should hold onto him for at least five years in case he's the next Steve Young. Since that's the case, the Bills obviously made a mistake by getting rid of Rob Johnson after just four years.

[Simon]

the Bills obviously made a mistake by getting rid of Rob Johnson after just four years.

780229[/snapback]

Rob Johnson was almost 30 years old when the Bills let him go.

I guess JP should get 4-5 more years.

[RuntheDamnBall]

So if you use a first round pick on a guy, you should hold onto him for at least five years in case he's the next Steve Young.  Since that's the case, the Bills obviously made a mistake by getting rid of Rob Johnson after just four years.

780229[/snapback]

Not at all. Hell, Johnson already had three NFL seasons under his belt before we took him on. Not full seasons of play, hence the reason we gave him a longer look and chance to grow and play out his potential, which no one can argue he didn't have. But he had a reasonable amount of time to prove something in four years here.

 

And Kelly had two USFL years and a few more years to learn before he brought us to the playoffs. One can only imagine what would have happened if he started his career in Buffalo. At the first sign of failure, the first few bonehead interceptions, Jimbo probably would have been thrown under the bus by the same people who are doing it to Losman today. But people forget this all the time. In the revisionist history he was always great and always a Buffalo hero, whom everyone loved.

 

Look, the point is, we gave these guys a shot. Losman deserves the same.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Rob Johnson was almost 30 years old when the Bills let him go.

I guess JP should get 4-5 more years.

780243[/snapback]

Right, that's exactly what I said. Because I said a guy needs 7 seasons in the NFL to prove himself.

 

I hope JP succeeds on more than one level so I can be around for the warm memories the haters will have of him later on, as though they always supported him as one of their beloved Bills. It'll be the kind of moment in which it's nice to rely on Darin and the search function here.

[Orton's Arm]

Ummmm, you might also want to consider the situations they've been in since they entered teh league.

Like P'burgh's dominant OLine in front of Roethlisberger vs Losman's cheesecloth

Or the stability of the Stiller organization vs the Bills asylum

Or the deepest stable of RB's I've ever seen vs Willis and some role players

Or WR corps' with the likes of Ward, Burress, RandleEl, etc vs Lee Evans

Or Heath Miller at TE

Or Danny "NewHampshire" Kreider at FB

780224[/snapback]

I'll grant you most of those points. I'll take issue with the WR thing however, because last year Losman also had Moulds. In addition, he had a full year to study the playbook and watch film before being thrown to the wolves.

 

But I'll grant your point that overall, Pittsburgh's situation on offense was and is a lot better than that of the Bills. So I agree with your implication that if you're comparing Losman's performance to Roethlisberger's, you have to grade the former on a curve. But the difference in yards per attempt between the two quarterbacks is so huge that you'd have to grade Losman on a curve the size of Pamela Anderson's bust if you wanted to make the two come out equal.

 

Moreover, Holcomb has spent his career surrounded by weak supporting casts, and he's amassed a higher yards per attempt stat for his career than Losman's average either for his career or for the year. In the coming weeks, we'll get a better feel for how much Losman has or hasn't improved. It would be premature to say he hasn't improved, but it would also be premature to say he's become Dilfer.

[Simon]

Right, that's exactly what I said.  Because I said a guy needs 7 seasons in the NFL to prove himself.

 

I hope JP succeeds on more than one level so I can be around for the warm memories the haters will have of him later on, as though they always supported him as one of their beloved Bills.  It'll be the kind of moment in which it's nice to rely on Darin and the search function here.

780252[/snapback]

 

To clear up any vagaries in my post:

I think Losman was progressing well and I have no problems with him at this point.

I didn't mean for my response to come off as me taking a shot at him or at you. Just goofing around with the bizarre notion of comparing Rob Johnson to Losman.

 

But the difference in yards per attempt between the two quarterbacks is so huge that you'd have to grade Losman on a curve the size of Pamela Anderson's bust if you wanted to make the two come out equal.

 

Yards per attempt? Are you joking? Talk about hunting up arbitrary statistics to support your preconceived notion.

And the difference between Buffalo and P'burgh the past few years has been about the size of Pam Anderson's bust.

[BoondckCL]

Does anybody realize that you are not going to persuade Holcoms Arm away from his stand point. Unlike all the other flip flop's here, he is not going to budge. It's like trying to persuade my grandmother to believe abortions should be legal. It's just not happening.

[MDH]

Some people saw a performance that was solid, mistake-free, and Roethlisberger-like, while others saw 84 passing yards and a punter with a very sore foot.

780196[/snapback]

 

Losman did what was asked of him in that game, nothing more, nothing less. The coaching staff managed the game well and I wouldn't want the Bills to have put the ball in the air anymore than they did considering how their D and ST were playing. I also wouldn't want Losman to take any chances with the ball considering how well the D and ST were playing. There are times to take some chances in order to move the chains or score more points, Sunday was not one of them. Who the hell cares how many yards passing he had? If the game was closer and the Bills needed the O to score more points I have no doubt that the coaching staff would have called a different game. But as it is they called a conservative one which Losman executed well enough to help win the game.

 

I think we all know that Losman can make plays down the field and he finally showed us that he can also manage a game pretty well when that's what is called for. Imo, the bottom line is that you're not going to be happy with Losman no matter what and there's really nothing he could do, aside from putting up type Peyton numbers, that would please you. You’ve pretty much said it already, based on what you know from him in college you’re not even willing to give him a chance. I’m wondering how much Tulane football you’ve actually seen…

[Mile High]

Does anybody realize that you are not going to persuade Holcoms Arm away from his stand point. Unlike all the other flip flop's here, he is not going to budge. It's like trying to persuade my grandmother to believe abortions should be legal. It's just not happening.

780264[/snapback]

Starting to realize that. But, it's real simple. Kelly had his chance last year TD and MM were trying to save face. And he was average at best. There is also one more factor that makes it simple. Upside..... Holcomb pretty much has none, while Losman has all the potential in the world. KH's careeer stats are ok because he was on a Browns team who had no running game and were always playing catch up.

[Dibs]

I went back and reread the first three pages of this thread.  It started off with comments from people who were evidently very happy about Losman's performance.  Someone called Losman's performance "solid," so JDG responded by asking, "if 83 yards is 'solid,' I'd hate to see what you think a 'mediocre' day looks like...."

 

This initiated an argument over whether Losman's performance was solid or mediocre; and whether it was or wasn't Roethlisberger-like. 

780196[/snapback]

But the point becomes...why quibble over the semantics used? Once JDG flung that first pointed barb the rest is progressive stupidity on both sides(great way to alienate yourself Dibs )

I actually had no problem with your first post HA since you acknowledged what was being said(that JP has shown improvement) & then you pointed out where he could improve....not overly pointed or barby.

I believe the expression about 'raining on a parade' has something to do with JDGs origonal post & the reactions of people to it IMO are quite justified.

[Orton's Arm]

Does anybody realize that you are not going to persuade Holcoms Arm away from his stand point. Unlike all the other flip flop's here, he is not going to budge. It's like trying to persuade my grandmother to believe abortions should be legal. It's just not happening.

780264[/snapback]

Hey, maybe your grandmother thinks you are stubborn for not allowing yourself to be persuaded by everything she's said. Maybe she's right about you being stubborn, and maybe you inherited your stubbornness from her.

 

It's always the people with whom you disagree who get labeled stubborn; never the people with whom you agree.

[pkwwjd]

I'd rather think in terms of Favre, Steve Young or John Elway.  All were athletic QBs but none of them won big until they learned to rely on their team mates instead of doing everything themselves.  I don't think anyone is confusing Losman with Vick.

780047[/snapback]

 

Would you be referring to the John Elway who completed 47% of his passes and 1:2 TD:INT in his first 11 games?

 

and Steve Young who completed just over 50% with a nearly 1:2 ratio in his first 1 1/2 seasons (19 games)?

 

Favre is the only one of the three that actually did well in his first full season of starting -- 64% and more TDs than INTs

 

Oh wait ... isn't that about what JP is doing right now? about 64% and more TDs than his non-existent INT #

 

 

 

BTW, HA, I call myself stubborn, and I usually agree with myself. It's not about who agrees or disagrees once you get past adolescence.

[CosmicBills]

It's always the people with whom you disagree who get labeled stubborn; never the people with whom you agree.

780532[/snapback]

 

No, it's the people who have rigid agendas. Agenda's immune to factual evidence, rational observations, or objective discussions. Being unwilling to change your mind despite the evidence to the contrary is what it means to be stubborn.

 

I respect people who have opinions, even those different than my own. It's what makes life interesting. And it doesn't bother me that you and JDG have this steadfast agenda to be proven right about JP. It's your choice.

 

I just think it's hilarious when you and JDG put the priority of your agenda above reason and more importantly above the team's success. Because it's not about the team, it's not about the QB, it's about you guys. You don't see it -- but that's what it is.

 

Narrow, unenlightened self interest does not impress me. But it does make me laugh.

 

Doesn't mean I wouldn't have a beer with either of you guys and laugh about it. In the end we're still talking about the same thing -- Bills football. And that is always a good thing.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

He doesn't have any kind of hidden agenda. He just really, really likes the yards per attempt stat.

[Orton's Arm]

BTW, HA, I call myself stubborn, and I usually agree with myself.  It's not about who agrees or disagrees once you get past adolescence.

780565[/snapback]

If you're saying that people on both sides of the Losman debate are guilty of being stubborn, I can live with that.

[Orton's Arm]

He just really, really likes the yards per attempt stat.

780572[/snapback]

That's true. You judge a runningback on yards per carry. Why not judge a quarterback on yards per attempt? In both cases you have to look at other things also--does he commit a lot of turnovers, how many TDs does he have, etc. But you start by looking at yards per carry/yards per attempt.

[stuckincincy]

That's true.  You judge a runningback on yards per carry.  Why not judge a quarterback on yards per attempt?  In both cases you have to look at other things also--does he commit a lot of turnovers, how many TDs does he have, etc.  But you start by looking at yards per carry/yards per attempt.

780580[/snapback]

 

You also have to factor in qb's that have wr's, who produce reliably good YAC numbers.

 

It gets complicated.