What we can learn about the Bills from the Sabres

[Alaska Darin]

He might not be as good right now, but his ceiling is higher than any forward on the team.

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I disagree. I'd say Vanek has the most talent of any Sabre in a VERY long time.

[BADOLBILZ]

Feel free to add yours, or debate mine.

 

1. Players mature at different times in their careers. It's impossible to know how long is too long to wait on a guy. Most people, including myself, would have run Tim Connolly out of town. Brian Campbell comes to mind.

 

2. Certain players can suck if your team is a loser, and add very little individually, but put around better players, that same player suddenly becomes an invaluable cog to the machine.

 

3. Confidence, pure and stupid luck, momentum, and timing are as important as pure talent.

 

4. Great talent with bad attitudes, sometimes known as Miro Satan, often takes away as much as it adds.

 

5. Coaches and GMs and management that were clueless in other seasons sometimes put it all together in subsequent or different seasons. They are hardly ever solely good or solely bad, always smart or always stupid.

 

6. Teams usually need a confluence of events to succeed over the course of a season, including the success and proper stewardship of the ownership, the management, the scouts, the head coach, the staff, the old players, the new veterans and the young guys all at the same time.

 

7. Back-ups and depth are almost as important as starters. However great Ryan Miller is, and he is IMO light years ahead of Marty Biron, Biron's play was almost as valuable as Miller's. The confidence that was built in the team during Biron's streak IMO still is having an enduring affect. Pomminville has been one of the team's best players.

 

8. Chemistry is essential, but it can be built pretty quickly if the right ingredients are put together. It's impossible to know what those ingredients are, or whether it will work until it works, but chemistry doesn't have to take a couple years to develop. It can happen almost overnight.

 

9. Stars are essential to a team to win at all. But you do not need an entire team of them. Ryan Miller is a star. Vanek is likely to become one, perhaps this season. But clearly this team is a bunch of no names.

 

This is really not as much a Sabres post as it likely appears. I am trying to apply all of those things mentioned above to the Bills. If people think this thread should be moved to OT, so be it. But I think it should remain on the Bills side, because it's meant to put the future of the Bills into the context of what happened to the Sabres.  Surely, the rules changes have helped the team tremendously. Probably the biggest reason for the team's success. But all of those things mentioned above have little to do with the rule changes and exist independently of them.

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Actually, #1 lesson should be that Buffalo fans aren't a lynch mob that forces unjust coaching changes. Lindy Ruff has struggled, and perhaps a vocal minority has wanted him fired in the past, but for the most part, fans realize that he's a good coach in a league where that's good enough, because it's a game of effort and skill. Fans have understood that the Sabres have lacked skill, and that in a small NHL market, the best chance to win is to grow your own skill players, and that takes patience.

 

Lesson #2: the NHL is NOTHING like the NFL. In the NFL, you draft a player and he has to produce in at least 2-3 years, if not sooner. Free agency and roster limits(no minor league) don't allow it. Tim Connolly is considered an emerging young player, he entered the NHL the same year Antoine Winfield entered the NFL. Get my drift? I mean, we really are talking apples and oranges, you don't get 6-7 years to develop a player in the NFL. Coaching in the NFL is also completely different, and so much more important. Talent is much more evenly distributed in the NFL and the game has become a chess match where the best coached teams win. In the NFL, one step(or in the Bills case, false step) is all it takes to decide a game, and there is no goalie there to bail you out at the goal line.

 

Continuity is important in a winning organization, but we knew that from past history here, and we see it on the field in the Super Bowl most years. Gotta' have good coaching though, continuously bad coaching gets you nowhere, you can give a guy like Norv Turner 15 years and he'd lose almost every year.

 

IMO, you really can't learn much about winning in the NFL by watching what the Sabres have done. You can learn about building a winner in a small NHL market, but the lesson is expect a lot of losing before you turn it around.

[Kelly the Dog]

Actually, #1 lesson should be that Buffalo fans aren't a lynch mob that forces unjust coaching changes.  Lindy Ruff has struggled, and perhaps a vocal minority has wanted him fired in the past, but for the most part, fans realize that he's a good coach in a league where that's good enough, because it's a game of effort and skill.  Fans have understood that the Sabres have lacked skill, and that in a small NHL market, the best chance to win is to grow your own skill players, and that takes patience. 

 

Lesson #2: the NHL is NOTHING like the NFL.  In the NFL, you draft a player and he has to produce in at least 2-3 years, if not sooner.  Free agency and roster limits(no minor league) don't allow it.  Tim Connolly is considered an emerging young player, he entered the NHL the same year Antoine Winfield entered the NFL.  Get my drift?  I mean, we really are talking apples and oranges, you don't get 6-7 years to develop a player in the NFL.  Coaching in the NFL is also completely different, and so much more important.  Talent is much more evenly distributed in the NFL and the game has become a chess match where the best coached teams win.  In the NFL, one step(or in the Bills case, false step) is all it takes to decide a game, and there is no goalie there to bail you out at the goal line.

 

Continuity is important in a winning organization, but we knew that from past history here, and we see it on the field in the Super Bowl most years.  Gotta' have good coaching though, continuously bad coaching gets you nowhere, you can give a guy like Norv Turner 15 years and he'd lose almost every year.

 

IMO, you really can't learn much about winning in the NFL by watching what the Sabres have done.  You can learn about building a winner in a small NHL market, but the lesson is expect a lot of losing before you turn it around.

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I am not sure about #1. I heard a lot of badmouthing Lindy Ruff over the last few years. I don't think more than half the Sabre fans would have been upset if he or Regier were fired before this season started. It's impossible to say but I think more were against them than for them.

 

Secondly, sure the sports are completely different, and you cannot wait on players as long as the NFL as you can in the NHL, but Tim Connolly had already used up his NHL time allotment. It doesn't have to be the same time period to understand that some players never emerge despite their talent and at some point you need to pull the plug on them. But if you wait, sometimes you get lucky. Whether that translates to 3-4 years in the NFL vs. 6-7 in the NHL doesn't matter. A lot of Bills fans were up in arms lately about the "mistake" TD made by not sticking with Bryce Fisher, who 5 and a half years after we drafted him started playing well and is now starting in the Super Bowl as a valuable player. He had used up his NFL time allotment to wait on him, IMO.

 

I also wasn't suggesting we run the Bills like the Sabres have been run. Just noticing that there are certain truths about sports, like #2 above, that translate to either sport.

[BADOLBILZ]

I am not sure about #1. I heard a lot of badmouthing Lindy Ruff over the last few years. I don't think more than half the Sabre fans would have been upset if he or Regier were fired before this season started. It's impossible to say but I think more were against them than for them.

 

Secondly, sure the sports are completely different, and you cannot wait on players as long as the NFL as you can in the NHL, but Tim Connolly had already used up his NHL time allotment. It doesn't have to be the same time period to understand that some players never emerge despite their talent and at some point you need to pull the plug on them. But if you wait, sometimes you get lucky. Whether that translates to 3-4 years in the NFL vs. 6-7 in the NHL doesn't matter. A lot of Bills fans were up in arms lately about the "mistake" TD made by not sticking with Bryce Fisher, who 5 and a half years after we drafted him started playing well and is now starting in the Super Bowl as a valuable player. He had used up his NFL time allotment to wait on him, IMO.

 

I also wasn't suggesting we run the Bills like the Sabres have been run. Just noticing that there are certain truths about sports, like #2 above, that translate to either sport.

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No way 50% of the fans wanted Lindy out. That's crazy. I bet you'd have been hard pressed to find more than 10% haters. Fans know he's not the reason they've been losing for so long. As for Bryce Fisher, are you saying we should invest a few more seasons in Coy Wire?

[Kelly the Dog]

No way 50% of the fans wanted Lindy out.  That's crazy.  I bet you'd have been hard pressed to find more than 10% haters.  Fans know he's not the reason they've been losing for so long.  As for Bryce Fisher, are you saying we should invest a few more seasons in Coy Wire?

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In the end, it probably was between 50 and 10%, I would argue as vehemently that it was nowhere close to 10% as you did nowhere close to 50%. And I said Bryce had already used up his time allotment, which Coy also has. Unfortunately, we don't have anyone on the roster yet to replace him. Hopefully it will be soon.

[JDG]

Secondly, sure the sports are completely different, and you cannot wait on players as long as the NFL as you can in the NHL, but Tim Connolly had already used up his NHL time allotment. It doesn't have to be the same time period to understand that some players never emerge despite their talent and at some point you need to pull the plug on them. But if you wait, sometimes you get lucky. Whether that translates to 3-4 years in the NFL vs. 6-7 in the NHL doesn't matter. A lot of Bills fans were up in arms lately about the "mistake" TD made by not sticking with Bryce Fisher, who 5 and a half years after we drafted him started playing well and is now starting in the Super Bowl as a valuable player. He had used up his NFL time allotment to wait on him, IMO.

 

Speaking of patience and the development of players.... let's consider the Bills #1 developmental project, JP Losman. I have to say that I sometimes wonder if JP Losman might not be similar to Rich Gannon. There's some obvious similarities, they're both running QB's, both came from small schools.

 

Anyhow, Rich Gannon spent his first three years on the bench, before finally getting to start for three years. During those three mediocre years, he struggled with his completion percentage, and ran about 45 times a year. He then lost his job, and spent six years as a backup. By the time he got a chance to start again, in his 13th year, he was a solid player. By his 15th year he was NFL MVP.

 

It makes you wonder what might have happened had Minnesota stuck with him for another year or two. Or if maybe it just took that long to develop? Or get into the right situation? Who knows?

 

I hope JP Losman beats that mark by about 12 years, though. ;-)

 

JDG

[SACTOBILLSFAN]

I disagree.  I'd say Vanek has the most talent of any Sabre in a VERY long time.

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I still feel that maxim can be great if he learns to finish and be a goal scorer, because physically he's great and no body can skate with him, he just goes into these slumps where he doesn't score for a month.

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

1. If other teams dump veteran players due to "salary cap reasons", it is not due to the cap - it is because these players can't get it done anymore.

 

Milloy, Vincent, etc.

 

Regier went through this phase (Doug Gilmour) only to find out that the best thing to do was to go with the kids.

 

2. In hockey, it all starts with the goalie. You can have the greatest marquee names out there in the skill positions, but if your goalies are crap, then your team is crap.

 

In football, it all starts with the offensive and defensive lines. You can have the greatest marquee names out there in the skill positions, but if your lines are crap, then your team is crap.

 

3. Don't look cute or refined - just do what the f*** you need to do to win (Paul Gaustad, Adam Mair......Darryl Talley, Mark Pike). Are you listening Willis?

[drnykterstein]

No way 50% of the fans wanted Lindy out.  That's crazy.  I bet you'd have been hard pressed to find more than 10% haters.  Fans know he's not the reason they've been losing for so long.  As for Bryce Fisher, are you saying we should invest a few more seasons in Coy Wire?

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There were a lot of people who wanted Lindy out. Maybe it wasn't 50%, but it was certainly the vocal majority. I remember a tiem when just about every caller to WGR and WNSA wanted Lindy gone. I thought every one of them were idiots, and still do. I'm glad Tom Galisano had the brains enough not to listen to those idiots.

[Marv's Neighbor]

There is life after ownership change!

[Like A Mofo]

It was GREAT to see Ryan Miller (figuratively) best Dom Hasek last night. It was like a baton was passed. I really think Miller is going to be one of the best goalies for a long time. He's not as unique and clever as Dom, but no goalie is. But Ryan isn't an eccentric loner, either. The team really likes the kid and know what they have in him.

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Excellent point and after the Sabres/Sens game was over I had a similar thought to this...Sabres have been searching for the "next Hasek" since Dom left and in my eyes that officially happened when Miller outdueled Hasek that night.

 

As for the Sabres...I think Darcy had a good plan, but I also think he has had a bit of luck along the way..he really did gamble this year, a year after losing an entire season, he banked on his team being a playoff team without winning really ANY fans over in the summer.did not bring in anyone besides Numminen...if this "gamble" backfired on him, Sabres would be getting 10,000 a night and Darcy would be on the way out.

 

Turns out he was dealt a winning hand up to this point/

[plenzmd1]

There were a lot of people who wanted Lindy out. Maybe it wasn't 50%, but it was certainly the vocal majority. I remember a tiem when just about every caller to WGR and WNSA wanted Lindy gone. I thought every one of them were idiots, and still do. I'm glad Tom Galisano had the brains enough not to listen to those idiots.

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Man, I would say at least 80%, yes 80% of Sabres fans wanted Regiers head on a chopping block around August 31st 2005. I think many were like me who felt while the Sabres had a good nucleus, we needed some of those big name stars to get us over the hump , ME included. Patience is important, but winning is also important.

 

Amazing, now that they are winning, everybody posting they were on board from the get go. Balderdash!!!!!

 

In terms of the original point of this thread, I agree with all the points originally made, but I think most of those have been the tenats of running a successful team for ages.

 

Lets face, Bills have had some bad luck in terms of personnel, coaches, etc. Someone mentioned TD putting Greggo in lame duck status, but if I remember correctly, TD wanted to extend GW at the start of his third year, but GW turned him down, pretty confident he would be worth more once the Bills were in the playoffs.

[MarkyMannn]

The most important position on the clubs is goalie and QB. The Sabres have a STUD!!! Ryan Miller, if he progresses more, may make us forget about Dom. The Bills have JP, and we don't know how good he will be. But so far, not much

 

 

I disagree.  I'd say Vanek has the most talent of any Sabre in a VERY long time.

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Vanek looks like he is going to be great, again another guy if he keeps progressing. He may very well in 1-3 years be the top guy on the team, other than Miller

[Like A Mofo]

I disagree.  I'd say Vanek has the most talent of any Sabre in a VERY long time.

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I agree 100 percent...maybe the most talent to come out of the Sabres system since who, Mogilny? Pierre? Maybe even Perrault?

[Tcali]

What is he doing?

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hes having coffee and donuts at dickies.

[Tcali]

Excellent point and after the Sabres/Sens game was over I had a similar thought to this...Sabres have been searching for the "next Hasek" since Dom left and in my eyes that officially happened when Miller outdueled Hasek that night.

 

As for the Sabres...I think Darcy had a good plan, but I also think he has had a bit of luck along the way..he really did gamble this year, a year after losing an entire season, he banked on his team being a playoff team without winning really ANY fans over in the summer.did not bring in anyone besides Numminen...if this "gamble" backfired on him, Sabres would be getting 10,000 a night and Darcy would be on the way out.

 

Turns out he was dealt a winning hand up to this point/

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41 year old Hasek....-trust me--your athletic ability wanes eventually..

[ChasBB]

Patience is definitely a factor. Lots of people wanted to run Lindy Ruff out of town (myself included, at times). Now, he's a candidate for coach-of-the-year. Perhaps more patience with Gregg Williams might have paid off -- no way to ever know this.

 

Also, great goal-tending and overall defensive play is a big factor in Sabres' wins. That allows the offense to take more chances and can make average offensive talent more productive -- true in football, as well.

[Thirdborn]

Nice post Kelly..... I just bought the remaining season (nhl package). I haven't been this excited in a long while. lets hope the refs let us play when the playoffs come around.......I will never forgive them for allowing that goal where the puck went through the side of the net. I don't even want to talk about the skate in the crease. History. It's a good time to be a sabres fan.

[Oneonta Buffalo Fan]

the Bills need to start playing as a team and not playing the blame game. That what they need to learn first.

[BADOLBILZ]

There were a lot of people who wanted Lindy out. Maybe it wasn't 50%, but it was certainly the vocal majority.

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You can't go by call-in talk shows. There are a lot of strange people calling those shows. One of Dickersons every day callers was literally blind. Many others are mentally disturbed/unstable, lazy and bored by it, home duping workmen's comp, too fat to work.......I mean, not exactly the types you can count on for an informed opinion. To get a finger on the pulse of the paying customers, you have to get that at the game. When the sh*t has hit the fan for guys like RJ, Greggo and Donahoe, you could cut the tension in the stands with a knife. I never got that feeling with regard to Lindy at the few Sabres games I went to, and we've even seen him at Bills games during the lockout and he was shown nothing but love.