bryce fisher

[colin]

turned out to be a solid NFL starting end, did well in STL and is doing well in seattle.

 

7th round pick.

 

why did we let him go?

 

oh, that's right.

 

TD.

 

 

we have let too much talent go in the past 5 years, we are like the raptors

[Rubes]

I thought you were going to say we were bringing him in for an interview next week.

[colin]

I thought you were going to say we were bringing him in for an interview next week.

574818[/snapback]

 

zoing!

[John from Riverside]

Do to Lt Fisher and my Air Force ties we use to converse quite a bit.....I was really sad to see him go.

 

And yes....he used to read this site like Wildstyle Wiley.

[Typical TBD Guy]

we have let too much talent go in the past 5 years, we are like the raptors

574812[/snapback]

 

Bryce Fisher, Ted Washington, and Pat Williams are the only guys I can think of that we've let go in the past 5 years but truly shouldn't have...the rest never amounted to much after leaving Buffalo. Interestingly enough, all 3 of the guys I named play on the DL...

 

As bad a GM as TD has been in the past 5 years, this wasn't one of his weaknesses IMO.

[Kelly the Dog]

turned out to be a solid NFL starting end, did well in STL and is doing well in seattle.

 

7th round pick.

 

why did we let him go?

 

oh, that's right.

 

TD.

we have let too much talent go in the past 5 years, we are like the raptors

574812[/snapback]

I'm sure you would have been completely happy waiting the two and a half years from the time he left the Bills until Bryce started playing pretty decent, which would have been 5 and a half years after we had drafted him.

[Quester74]

Bryce Fisher, Ted Washington, and Pat Williams are the only guys I can think of that we've let go in the past 5 years but truly shouldn't have...the rest never amounted to much after leaving Buffalo. Interestingly enough, all 3 of the guys I named play on the DL...

 

As bad a GM as TD has been in the past 5 years, this wasn't one of his weaknesses IMO.

574827[/snapback]

 

Kelso wins points in my book for not mentioning Floug Dutie as "escaped talent"..

 

By the way, I'd add Keion Carpenter to that list. He's played very well for Atlanta.

 

Quester74

[JDG]

I'm sure you would have been completely happy waiting the two and a half years from the time he left the Bills until Bryce started playing pretty decent, which would have been 5 and a half years after we had drafted him.

574855[/snapback]

 

Indeed, Bryce left the Bills for the Rams for a couple years - who also let him go.

 

JDG

[Typical TBD Guy]

Kelso wins points in my book for not mentioning Floug Dutie as "escaped talent"..

 

By the way, I'd add Keion Carpenter to that list. He's played very well for Atlanta.

 

Quester74

574856[/snapback]

 

Good one. I'd rather have Carpenter over Vincent right now, especially when you factor in the price tag each comes with...

 

Believe it or not, I was a mild Flutie fan back in the day (NOT one of "those" Flutie fans), but the fact remains that he did nothing in the league after we dumped him. There were a lot of guys like Frutie who did nothing after we cut them (Cowart, Wiley, Price, Fina, Brown, Riemersma, Holecek, Jennings, Flowers, RJ, etc).

 

There have also been a few who have had statistically productive careers upon leaving (Bledsoe, Winfield, etc), but still weren't worth the money at the time. And then there were some let go who went on to have mildly productive careers

(Antowain Smith, Newman, Irvin, etc), but nobody here ever cried over losing.

[BB2004]

Bryce Fisher, Ted Washington, and Pat Williams are the only guys I can think of that we've let go in the past 5 years but truly shouldn't have...the rest never amounted to much after leaving Buffalo. Interestingly enough, all 3 of the guys I named play on the DL...

 

As bad a GM as TD has been in the past 5 years, this wasn't one of his weaknesses IMO.

574827[/snapback]

 

The only one that is truly debatable is Pat Williams. He really was missed this season and we had a legitmate chance of keeping him here.

[colin]

I'm sure you would have been completely happy waiting the two and a half years from the time he left the Bills until Bryce started playing pretty decent, which would have been 5 and a half years after we had drafted him.

574855[/snapback]

 

i said right there in my post he did well in STL, which is where he played right after leaving us.

 

when he came out he was projected as a possible 2nd round talent who would slip because he had a 1 year obligation, so we took him in the 7th round.

 

he is a super good guy type too, always good to have guys like that around.

 

anyhow, if we kept him we would have spent 1 and perhaps 2 less draft picks on DEs who can't even really play on our left side.

 

althoug bryce himself would be a solid starter and nothing more, he would have given us 2 more shots at some quality linemen for the other side of the ball, or perhaps more DTs if we were to spend those picks on the D line.

 

i always liked him and was just reminded of him because he was on the NFL network

[krazykat]

turned out to be a solid NFL starting end, did well in STL and is doing well in seattle.

 

7th round pick.

 

why did we let him go?

 

oh, that's right.

 

TD.

we have let too much talent go in the past 5 years, we are like the raptors

574812[/snapback]

Donahoe wanted to bring in his own guys.

 

He had a plan. Remember.

[Tortured Soul]

His last season in Buffalo he had 3.5 sacks in very limited time and looked good doing it. He should've been kept.

 

Indeed, Bryce left the Bills for the Rams for a couple years - who also let him go.

 

JDG

574921[/snapback]

He was signed away after having seven sacks.

 

Donahoe wanted to bring in his own guys. 

 

He had a plan.  Remember.

574968[/snapback]

That's the right answer.

[Kelly the Dog]

i said right there in my post he did well in STL, which is where he played right after leaving us.

 

when he came out he was projected as a possible 2nd round talent who would slip because he had a 1 year obligation, so we took him in the 7th round.

 

he is a super good guy type too, always good to have guys like that around.

 

anyhow, if we kept him we would have spent 1 and perhaps 2 less draft picks on DEs who can't even really play on our left side.

 

althoug bryce himself would be a solid starter and nothing more, he would have given us 2 more shots at some quality linemen for the other side of the ball, or perhaps more DTs if we were to spend those picks on the D line.

 

i always liked him and was just reminded of him because he was on the NFL network

574963[/snapback]

He was a back-up on the Rams after he left the Bills. He only played in 4 games for them his first year and had 4 tackles and no sacks. Then he played another full season with the Rams as mostly a designated pass rusher, playing in 16 games and had two sacks. Then his third season with the Rams he still didnt start the entire season and finally started playing well the second half of the season, two and a half years after leaving the Bills.

[Spiderweb]

The only one that is truly debatable is Pat Williams.  He really was missed this season and we had a legitmate chance of keeping him here.

574950[/snapback]

 

?????????????????

 

So I guess you don't recall our run defense of 2001? Key loss...Ted Washington. In fact, in 2001, Ted went to Chicago (after being refused by TD when he crawled back and offered to play for the 2.5 Mil approx that TD had first offered him yet TD refused) and the Bears record went from 5-11 in 2000 to 13-3 in 2001. Coincidence, maybe, but Ted was a major contributor in shoring up the Bears run defense.

 

The fact is that we had two very good, if not great run stuffing tackles. I remember 2000 especially when on opening night, the Bills played Washington and Williams side by side and the Titans literally had zero room to run....

 

Washington, to this fan, was the best run stuffing nose tackle/tackle to have played this game. Unfortunately, age has caught up with Big Ted......

[d_wag]

Good one. I'd rather have Carpenter over Vincent right now, especially when you factor in the price tag each comes with...

 

Believe it or not, I was a mild Flutie fan back in the day (NOT one of "those" Flutie fans), but the fact remains that he did nothing in the league after we dumped him. There were a lot of guys like Frutie who did nothing after we cut them (Cowart, Wiley, Price, Fina, Brown, Riemersma, Holecek, Jennings, Flowers, RJ, etc).

 

There have also been a few who have had statistically productive careers upon leaving (Bledsoe, Winfield, etc), but still weren't worth the money at the time. And then there were some let go who went on to have mildly productive careers

(Antowain Smith, Newman, Irvin, etc), but nobody here ever cried over losing.

574946[/snapback]

 

winfield was/is worth the money.......that is the price for a GOOD cornerback in the NFL, and that is what he is........

 

i will also mention that brown has been very productive with the bears.......

[BB2004]

?????????????????

 

So I guess you don't recall our run defense of 2001? Key loss...Ted Washington. In fact, in 2001, Ted went to Chicago (after being refused by TD when he crawled back and offered to play for the 2.5 Mil approx that TD had first offered him yet TD refused) and the Bears record went from 5-11 in 2000 to 13-3 in 2001. Coincidence, maybe, but Ted was a major contributor in shoring up the Bears run defense.

 

The fact is that we had two very good, if not great run stuffing tackles. I remember 2000 especially when on opening night, the Bills played Washington and Williams side by side and the Titans literally had zero room to run....

 

Washington, to this fan, was the best run stuffing nose tackle/tackle to have played this game. Unfortunately, age has caught up with Big Ted......

575005[/snapback]

 

You're right about Washington. I thought he was one of the best NT ever to play against the run. The reason why I didn't put Washington in there was because at the time we were starting a brand new rebuilding process. I was upset too, but I didn't throw that in there.

[HarkinBanks]

turned out to be a solid NFL starting end, did well in STL and is doing well in seattle.

 

7th round pick.

 

why did we let him go?

 

oh, that's right.

 

TD.

we have let too much talent go in the past 5 years, we are like the raptors

574812[/snapback]

 

I saw him get a sack (I think it was last week) and could not believe it. I completely forgot about the guy and was so pissed off that we let him go and now he is doing well. Good for him though.

[GG]

He was a back-up on the Rams after he left the Bills. He only played in 4 games for them his first year and had 4 tackles and no sacks. Then he played another full season with the Rams as mostly a designated pass rusher, playing in 16 games and had two sacks. Then his third season with the Rams he still didnt start the entire season and finally started playing well the second half of the season, two and a half years after leaving the Bills.

574982[/snapback]

 

And this was a worse performance than Denkelsay or McJones?

[Kelly the Dog]

And this was a worse performance than Denkelsay or McJones?

575165[/snapback]

Would I like to have him now, in retrospect, without having to wait for him to be good? Sure. Would I be a GM in the league if I had to wait five and a half years before a player starts realizing his potential? No. Was it a glaring mistake, or a mistake at all, to let Bryce Fisher go after he showed very little for us for three training camps and a full season here, and then see him pick up his game quick as a snail for two and a half more years later when he finally developed into a solid player? No. I like the guy. It's a great story. I wish he would have played better for us. But to blame any general manager who cuts a guy and three years later that player is good is just plain wrong. There are dozens of other things to blame TD for.

[dave mcbride]

Would I like to have him now, in retrospect, without having to wait for him to be good? Sure. Would I be a GM in the league if I had to wait five and a half years before a player starts realizing his potential? No. Was it a glaring mistake, or a mistake at all, to let Bryce Fisher go after he showed very little for us for three training camps and a full season here, and then see him pick up his game quick as a snail for two and a half more years later when he finally developed into a solid player? No. I like the guy. It's a great story. I wish he would have played better for us. But to blame any general manager who cuts a guy and three years later that player is good is just plain wrong. There are dozens of other things to blame TD for.

575199[/snapback]

all things considered and with 20/20 hindsight, he shouldn't have been let go -- after all, a gm and a coach's job is to *project* -- but all the same i can't fault the mostly inept prior regime for this one. at a certain point you've gotta win now and players gotta produce, and you can't wait forever. and who knows? maybe kelsay will approach 10 sacks next year. sometimes, it takes time for the light to go on. and sometimes, they never pan out. it's probably about the hardest thing to predict in the league.

 

it does make me think, though, that the bills would be wise to keep josh reed. i have a sneaking suspicion that the light went on for him this year.

[bills_fan_in_raleigh]

turned out to be a solid NFL starting end, did well in STL and is doing well in seattle.

 

7th round pick.

 

why did we let him go?

 

oh, that's right.

 

TD.

we have let too much talent go in the past 5 years, we are like the raptors

574812[/snapback]

I think many on thos board thought that Bryce was another wasted pick etc. Look at ex Bills having impact for their teams and sometimes in positions we sorely need.

[Kelly the Dog]

all things considered and with 20/20 hindsight, he shouldn't have been let go -- after all, a gm and a coach's job is to *project* -- but all the same i can't fault the mostly inept prior regime for this one. at a certain point you've gotta win now and players gotta produce, and you can't wait forever. and who knows? maybe kelsay will approach 10 sacks next year. sometimes, it takes time for the light to go on. and sometimes, they never pan out. it's probably about the hardest thing to predict in the league. 

 

it does make me think, though, that the bills would be wise to keep josh reed. i have a sneaking suspicion that the light went on for him this year.

575216[/snapback]

I agree. I think they should keep Josh. And you're absolutely right, these are terribly difficult decisions. You simply can't wait on a guy for 5+ years though, nor be criticized for not "seeing it" when you watch and the guy does very little. And does very little for a couple years for the next GM. I remember watching Bryce Fisher too. And remember seeing a great athlete without a lot of weight who made a highlight reel sack every 6-7 games and do very little against the rush and put very little pressure on the QB on the other plays.

[colin]

if we kept washington i'd bet with williams and washington as the middle our 4-3 bryce and schoble on our edges would have looked better than they did all the time.

 

remember what washington did for the pats in their second super bowl year?

 

given the roster we had that might have been us

 

:<

[beerme1]

Does Thomas Smith fit into this topic also?

[GG]

I agree. I think they should keep Josh. And you're absolutely right, these are terribly difficult decisions. You simply can't wait on a guy for 5+ years though, nor be criticized for not "seeing it" when you watch and the guy does very little. And does very little for a couple years for the next GM. I remember watching Bryce Fisher too. And remember seeing a great athlete without a lot of weight who made a highlight reel sack every 6-7 games and do very little against the rush and put very little pressure on the QB on the other plays.

575230[/snapback]

 

I hate to take the contrarian position to my usual role of railing against hindsight analysis. But, as in select cases when I go against my grain, I use hindsight to gauge a personnel decision based on the alternatives available at the time.

 

Thusly... Even with the Chidi signing in '02, and the prophetic drafting of Denney, there was room on the roster for DEs, yet the administration chose Grant Irons & Kendrick Office over Fisher. And here we are.

 

It's just emblematic of the personnel decisions that have not panned out for TD's era. I don't get into the game of blasting him for picking a player in Position A vs a player in Position B, because there was a likely good reason they had priorities at Position A. But, they should be called out when a handful of players in Position A picked after the Bills performed better. That's as pure of a sign of personnel evaluation or selection problem as you can get.

[Kelly the Dog]

I hate to take the contrarian position to my usual role of railing against hindsight analysis.  But, as in select cases when I go against my grain, I use hindsight to gauge a personnel decision based on the alternatives available at the time.

 

Thusly...  Even with the Chidi signing in '02, and the prophetic drafting of Denney, there was room on the roster for DEs, yet the administration chose Grant Irons & Kendrick Office over Fisher.  And here we are.

 

It's just emblematic of the personnel decisions that have not panned out for TD's era.  I don't get into the game of blasting him for picking a player in Position A vs a player in Position B, because there was a likely good reason they had priorities at Position A.  But, they should be called out when a handful of players in Position A picked after the Bills performed better.  That's as pure of a sign of personnel evaluation or selection problem as you can get.

575301[/snapback]

Grant Irons had one sack less than Bryce Fisher after two years away from the Bills. Chidi's had 15 sacks since he was gone from the Bills. Should we have kept on to them, too? If you want to say it was a minor mistake by TD not keeping onto Bryce Fisher for his full contract, and then re-signing him to a veteran contract after he had done absolutely nothing, feel free.

[colin]

I hate to take the contrarian position to my usual role of railing against hindsight analysis.  But, as in select cases when I go against my grain, I use hindsight to gauge a personnel decision based on the alternatives available at the time.

 

Thusly...  Even with the Chidi signing in '02, and the prophetic drafting of Denney, there was room on the roster for DEs, yet the administration chose Grant Irons & Kendrick Office over Fisher.  And here we are.

 

It's just emblematic of the personnel decisions that have not panned out for TD's era.  I don't get into the game of blasting him for picking a player in Position A vs a player in Position B, because there was a likely good reason they had priorities at Position A.  But, they should be called out when a handful of players in Position A picked after the Bills performed better.  That's as pure of a sign of personnel evaluation or selection problem as you can get.

575301[/snapback]

 

part of it might be the moron coaches who gw brought in with him who had no experience before making crap evaluations

 

still goes back to TD

[GG]

Grant Irons had one sack less than Bryce Fisher after two years away from the Bills. Chidi's had 15 sacks since he was gone from the Bills. Should we have kept on to them, too? If you want to say it was a minor mistake by TD not keeping onto Bryce Fisher for his full contract, and then re-signing him to a veteran contract after he had done absolutely nothing, feel free. 

575323[/snapback]

 

That's where we differ. I don't think that Fisher had done nothing in Buffalo, and looked good as a situational pass rusher in '01. Whether it was realistic to expect that he would blossom into a very good DE within 5 years is not as big of a question as whether he was a better player in 2002 than Grant Irons & Kendrick Office.

 

The only true "off-year" that he had was 2002, and it's tough to judge on that year, as he was signed by Rams after training camp. In '03, even as a backup his stats were better than Denney, Kelsay, Irons, & Ahanatou.

[dave mcbride]

That's where we differ.  I don't think that Fisher had done nothing in Buffalo, and looked good as a situational pass rusher in '01.  Whether it was realistic to expect that he would blossom into a very good DE within 5 years is not as big of a question as whether he was a better player in 2002 than Grant Irons & Kendrick Office.

 

The only true "off-year" that he had was 2002, and it's tough to judge on that year, as he was signed by Rams after training camp.  In '03, even as a backup his stats were better than Denney, Kelsay, Irons, & Ahanatou.

575368[/snapback]

grant irons and kendrick office: i had succesfully blocked those names from my mind until now. thanks a lot.

[Kelly the Dog]

That's where we differ.  I don't think that Fisher had done nothing in Buffalo, and looked good as a situational pass rusher in '01.  Whether it was realistic to expect that he would blossom into a very good DE within 5 years is not as big of a question as whether he was a better player in 2002 than Grant Irons & Kendrick Office.

 

The only true "off-year" that he had was 2002, and it's tough to judge on that year, as he was signed by Rams after training camp.  In '03, even as a backup his stats were better than Denney, Kelsay, Irons, & Ahanatou.

575368[/snapback]

Fair enough, but the point is really that if we kept him his contract would have run out, and he would have had to be re-signed to a FA contract after showing precious little in four years AFTER 2002 I believe. I thought he showed that he had some talent. I wouldn't have been pissed if he was resigned at a veteran minimum for a year or two as a backup. But that still is hindsight.