Bills o-line scheme and reliance on mesh routes - The Athletic (Mike Sando)

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

It’s a hilarious approach.

 

about as close of a philosophy of “Josh, please save us” as possible lmao.

We've seen it for much longer than just this season tbh

 

Daboll was guilty of this too

[The Firebaugh Kid]

3 hours ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

Worth a watch!I view it much differently after watching. Beane and Brady have really screwed the pooch!!!

This is absolutely unacceptable. 

[FireChans]

11 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

It's pro football, every team has injuries

I’m like 50% sure that’s McD’s burner FWIW

[Low Positive]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

We've seen it for much longer than just this season tbh

 

Daboll was guilty of this too

Don't most teams with great QBs? Yesterday, the Chiefs lose if Mahomes doesn't roll right, evade a rush, and complete a miracle pass to Noah Gray. They even needed some help from the refs on that play to save their season. 

[mjt328]

2 hours ago, TheBrownBear said:

Correct. Go watch some of his games from 2018-2021. Current Josh has lost more than a step from the earlier version. It's become apparent that he's no longer quick enough to reliably escape from pressure. 

 

This may be the case, but he's also having trouble because of the way defenses are playing against us.

 

The things that make Josh Allen special are his ability to escape pressure, his ability to scramble, and his ability to make throws other QBs simply can't.  Instead of being 11 on 11, it's almost like giving the offense an extra player.

 

Now since defenses don't need to respect our WRs, they only need to play Cover 1 with a single-high safety.  That gives the defense an extra man to play around with, instead of dedicating him into a deep zone.  And since we don't have anyone who threatens downfield, defenses can also press closer on routes and crowd more guys into the box.  

 

In other words, our lack of talent at WR is giving coordinators an extra guy that can blitz or spy, and giving Allen less space to scramble around.  

 

[FireChans]

Just now, Low Positive said:

Don't most teams with great QBs? Yesterday, the Chiefs lose if Mahomes doesn't roll right, evade a rush, and complete a miracle pass to Noah Gray. They even needed some help from the refs on that play to save their season. 

NFL teams all rely on their QBs.

 

I’m not convinced that any NFL in history has built it in to their offensive identity to have their QB break a tackle from a free rushing LB.

[GoBills808]

9 minutes ago, Low Positive said:

Don't most teams with great QBs? Yesterday, the Chiefs lose if Mahomes doesn't roll right, evade a rush, and complete a miracle pass to Noah Gray. They even needed some help from the refs on that play to save their season. 

No and I've been pretty consistent on this

 

I watch a lot of football and I've never seen a team that puts more on their QB. The Lamar era ravens come close but they've at least attempted to install a functional offense around him

[Low Positive]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

No and I've been pretty consistent on this

 

I watch a lot of football and I've never seen a team that puts more on their QB. The Lamar era ravens come close but they've at least attempted to install a functional offense around him

From the article we are discussing:

 

"On the sack front, the Bills have empowered Allen to handle free rushers instead of leaning on intricate protection schemes to do the job, according to coaches familiar with Buffalo. ... Allen can make defenders miss and break away from their grasp as well as just about any quarterback. He can also play freer without directing more of his energy and preparation toward setting protections."

 

He puts it on himself. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

5 hours ago, ProcessTruster said:

Without Hardman, Samuel and Kincaid (perhaps our best man-beaters or deep ball guys), mesh was the perhaps the only reliable way to get guys who can't seperate (ie the remainder of the WR group)  open.  Especially against 2 of the best man corners in the league.   Not sure Brady had many options.   Injuries matter in this league.   You can't have half a position group out and expect things to just run as normal.   

 

Bills were in real trouble on offense from the get go in this one.   

 

But if Gabe gets that second foot in , they win anyway.   Funny game this is.  

 

The reason you use mesh is it sets open window reads and they're all really rapid.  So you know - this guy uncovers first, then this guy, then finally that guy - and this guy over here is the hot. 

 

But if none of them uncover in rhythm (because the opponent knows you're running mesh) - they know once you move off read 1, you don't have time to go back to read 1, so i no longer have to cover him, then you end up with these busted plays where no one is open.  There's plenty of ways to beat man coverage beyond mesh or rub routes. 

 

The challenge with the construction of these plays is always going to be proper diagnosis of coverage, identifying when players will uncover, and knowing when you have to get the ball out.  Plus route running will help, but it's more of an issue of timing.  When you run a timing based offense the ball goes to the same place at the same time.   If you're running double moves to shake tight man coverage, that takes more time regardless of how fast you are.  

 

Part of the challenge buffalo is running into on a lot of scramble drills also reflects on the route's they're running.  They run too close together so buying time doesn't create space since there will be multiple defenders in the area of bunched receivers.  

 

End of the day - if they're getting home with 4 THAT consistently, you have to change your approach.  

[SoonerBillsFan]

3 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

The reason you use mesh is it sets open window reads and they're all really rapid.  So you know - this guy uncovers first, then this guy, then finally that guy - and this guy over here is the hot. 

 

But if none of them uncover in rhythm (because the opponent knows you're running mesh) - they know once you move off read 1, you don't have time to go back to read 1, so i no longer have to cover him, then you end up with these busted plays where no one is open.  There's plenty of ways to beat man coverage beyond mesh or rub routes. 

 

The challenge with the construction of these plays is always going to be proper diagnosis of coverage, identifying when players will uncover, and knowing when you have to get the ball out.  Plus route running will help, but it's more of an issue of timing.  When you run a timing based offense the ball goes to the same place at the same time.   If you're running double moves to shake tight man coverage, that takes more time regardless of how fast you are.  

 

Part of the challenge buffalo is running into on a lot of scramble drills also reflects on the route's they're running.  They run too close together so buying time doesn't create space since there will be multiple defenders in the area of bunched receivers.  

 

End of the day - if they're getting home with 4 THAT consistently, you have to change your approach.  

And quit being so damn predictable 

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, Low Positive said:

From the article we are discussing:

 

"On the sack front, the Bills have empowered Allen to handle free rushers instead of leaning on intricate protection schemes to do the job, according to coaches familiar with Buffalo. ... Allen can make defenders miss and break away from their grasp as well as just about any quarterback. He can also play freer without directing more of his energy and preparation toward setting protections."

 

He puts it on himself. 

Yeah thanks for that I'm reading it differently 

 

'empowered the QB to handle free rushers' is shorthand for 'lacks a reliable scheme that marries questionable talent at wideout and the ability to generate options under pressure via route concepts+pass pro'

 

Or simply 'lazy' if you prefer 

[Low Positive]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Yeah thanks for that I'm reading it differently 

 

'empowered the QB to handle free rushers' is shorthand for 'lacks a reliable scheme that marries questionable talent at wideout and the ability to generate options under pressure via route concepts+pass pro'

 

Or simply 'lazy' if you prefer 

There is a lot of blame to go around. Brady doesn't run imaginative plays and Beane has dropped the ball in building the WR room. There is no question about that. But It's on Josh to protect himself by calling the correct protections. Brady's mic is cut off with 15 seconds on the play clock, long before the defense shows their hand. Josh (and McGovern) need to read the defense and adjust the protection accordingly. The fact that teams get free rushers is as much on them as it is on the coaches.

[GoBills808]

Just now, Low Positive said:

There is a lot of blame to go around. Brady doesn't run imaginative plays and Beane has dropped the ball in building the WR room. There is no question about that. But It's on Josh to protect himself by calling the correct protections. Brady's mic is cut off with 15 seconds on the play clock, long before the defense shows their hand. Josh (and McGovern) need to read the defense and adjust the protection accordingly. The fact that teams get free rushers is as much on them as it is on the coaches.

Lol the article literally says they built it to rely on Allen to make free rushers miss

 

Or are he and McGovern supposed to design protections by themselves on the fly😂😂

[Ga boy]

5 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

I saw this today too and found it interesting.  Perhaps it's time to transition the offense based on how Allen has evolved as a player - they can't rely on him to make unblocked rushers miss like they used to be.  The progressions, timing, and protection schemes need to change YESTERDAY.

Coach by progressions/timing/etc do you mean Josh throwing to specific diagrammed spots.  He seems mostly to throw only when the wr is open.  He has the gun to usually make that happen, but with guys who can’t separate, wouldn’t it be better to run schemed routes??

[Low Positive]

8 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Lol the article literally says they built it to rely on Allen to make free rushers miss

 

Or are he and McGovern supposed to design protections by themselves on the fly😂😂

It says "empower," not "force." Josh wants to spend more time making plays and reading the defense after the snap. In other words, being in a flow state, not thinking, and "playing freer," instead of "directing more of his energy and preparation toward setting protections." Of course, the protections are designed by Kromer, and are built into the play that Brady calls from the booth. But it is always on a player on the field to set the specifics of the protection on a play-by-play basis, because the OC has no way to do that. He has no control over what happens from 15 seconds on the play clock until they turn his mic on again. The article states that the protections are simple by design, allowing Josh to play "freer." You can disagree, but you're disagreeing with Mike Sando and "coaches familiar with Buffalo," not me. I have no idea about NFL protection schemes. I just know that the Bills seem to allow a lot of free rushers, and this article provides a nuanced answer for why that is.

 

All QBs have strengths and weaknesses. Pointing out that Josh Allen is not elite pre-snap like Brady and Manning doesn't make me a hater. Josh Allen is my favorite current player in the NFL, but he's going to have to get better at pre-snap reads and setting coverages if he's going to play past the point where he can avoid NFL DEs. 

 

FWIW, the rest of the article about Brady's schemes not being dynamic is maddening and is a fireable offense. And I want to punt McDermott to the moon for his defense allowing that end of the half drive to Davis Freaking Mills. Plenty of blame to go around for a game like that, and Josh Allen still almost led the Bills to a win. He's that great. 

[Dan]

3 hours ago, TheBrownBear said:

Correct. Go watch some of his games from 2018-2021. Current Josh has lost more than a step from the earlier version. It's become apparent that he's no longer quick enough to reliably escape from pressure. 

I think he’s lost a step, or I would say half a step.  He’s still elite at avoiding the rush.   But… teams employ a hybrid spy that closes any QB scramble lanes quickly… essentially they bait him into thinking he can run, but really can’t.    
 

They can do this… because the offense doesn’t push the ball downfield enough to back those LBs up.  So they’re about to play roughly 5yds off the LOS, take away the short crossing passes and step into the lane if Josh decides to run.  
 

In the end..   Brady has failed to adjust his offense while the league has figured it out. Add to it, the inability to find a serious downfield WR and you get the type of games like last week. 

 

Add to the offensive struggles at adapting.. you have half the defense on IR.   We’re down to what 3rd and 4th string DTs?  

[GoBills808]

13 minutes ago, Low Positive said:

It says "empower," not "force." Josh wants to spend more time making plays and reading the defense after the snap. In other words, being in a flow state, not thinking, and "playing freer," instead of "directing more of his energy and preparation toward setting protections." Of course, the protections are designed by Kromer, and are built into the play that Brady calls from the booth. But it is always on a player on the field to set the specifics of the protection on a play-by-play basis, because the OC has no way to do that. He has no control over what happens from 15 seconds on the play clock until they turn his mic on again. The article states that the protections are simple by design, allowing Josh to play "freer." You can disagree, but you're disagreeing with Mike Sando and "coaches familiar with Buffalo," not me. I have no idea about NFL protection schemes. I just know that the Bills seem to allow a lot of free rushers, and this article provides a nuanced answer for why that is.

 

All QBs have strengths and weaknesses. Pointing out that Josh Allen is not elite pre-snap like Brady and Manning doesn't make me a hater. Josh Allen is my favorite current player in the NFL, but he's going to have to get better at pre-snap reads and setting coverages if he's going to play past the point where he can avoid NFL DEs. 

 

FWIW, the rest of the article about Brady's schemes not being dynamic is maddening and is a fireable offense. And I want to punt McDermott to the moon for his defense allowing that end of the half drive to Davis Freaking Mills. Plenty of blame to go around for a game like that, and Josh Allen still almost led the Bills to a win. He's that great. 

i think 'empowering' a QB by having him avoid free rushers is akin to saying everybody eats is 'empowering' him via his WR corps...doesn't wash for me

 

i fully admit to bias because ive been frustrated by the lack of real talent on the offensive staff for Allen's entire tenure. but i cant help but feel these guys just want to cut corners at every turn on offense and leave Allen to pick up the pieces so they can dedicate resources elsewhere

[8BallSippin]

3 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Elway, in the end, was similar to Peyton Manning in that he simply no longer had that supreme arm talent at the end.  Elway was helped with an RB by the name of Terrell Davis, who rushed for 1750 yards in 1997, for 2000 yards in 1998, and the Broncos ran the ball more than they threw it in those last two Super Bowls.

Manning, in his last SB, was helped by a #1 defense while their offense was middle of the pack. 

 

The current Buffalo Bills have the right idea with the run game and now need to upgrade their passing attack with more innovative schemes. That power run game is supposed to help protect Allen and not throw him under the bus... 8 SACKS 

 

the are so utterly one dimensional, albeit some of it because of injuries, that 17 doesn't stand a chance against a defense with a decent pass rush.  They some Diggs like ambition this offseason, i don't know who is available, but they need to make a bold move, and not some flyer on draft pick.

[Low Positive]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

i think 'empowering' a QB by having him avoid free rushers is akin to saying everybody eats is 'empowering' him via his WR corps...doesn't wash for me

 

i fully admit to bias because ive been frustrated by the lack of real talent on the offensive staff for Allen's entire tenure. but i cant help but feel these guys just want to cut corners at every turn on offense and leave Allen to pick up the pieces so they can dedicate resources elsewhere

They're not doing things just to spite Josh Allen and Bills fans. McDermott and Beane want to win, of course. They believe that the place to spend resources are on QB, OL, and DL. And there is data to suggest that this is the correct approach. I don't agree, mostly because elite WRs are fun to watch and the Bills right now are a boring team that isn't winning enough to make up for it. 

[GoBills808]

Just now, Low Positive said:

They're not doing things just to spite Josh Allen and Bills fans. McDermott and Beane want to win, of course. They believe that the place to spend resources are on QB, OL, and DL. And there is data to suggest that this is the correct approach. I don't agree, mostly because elite WRs are fun to watch and the Bills right now are a boring team that isn't winning enough to make up for it. 

of course they aren't. this is clearly their plan...they clearly think this is the right way to go about it. i've seen no evidence to the contrary