Let’s talk D

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

When was this? Only time I saw that we went three down was in our dime sets. Other than that we were in our typical 1's and 3's and played some G fronts. Nothing out of the norm.

 

Scheme is not the issue. DL gets too tall and pushed around - doesn't command doubles. Second level defenders looked horrific recognizing pullers.

 

I thought I saw multiple snaps with a bear front, but I was watching it on my ipad in an airport hotel so I wouldn't stake my life on it haha. 

 

I agree on all three points in your second para re. both scheme not being the issue, DL not having anyone that commands doubles without Ed, plays too upright and the second level defenders being a problem. I think the second level has been worse than the DL personally. Pretty much all season.

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, CNYfan said:

Thompson

Yeah.  Right!

[HoofHearted]

1 hour ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Welcome back. Where ya been?

Haha thanks. I usually disappear during offseason and don’t get a chance to dive into Bills film during my season. Should be able to be more active again here in the coming weeks.

[RunTheBall]

It’s pretty obvious to me the problem is our D-line when it comes to run defense. They are atrocious. Our DT’s get blown off the ball backwards on almost every play. Our slow undersized LBs are getting pummeled by Olineman. Bosa crashes inside on every single play, doesn’t matter. Groot can set the edge unless it’s against Mahomes in the playoffs. This isn’t changing. Our only hope is for Josh Alien Allen to be unleashed and get an early lead so teams get away from the run game. It’s that bad. I don’t think we have the defense to make it far at all int he playoffs. We’ve already seen Josh in God Mode during playoffs and the D lets him down. This defense sucks.

 

[Aesop]

Ive been saying it for awhile. We lack a stud 1 tech. And with oliver out, we are down to depth at the 3 tech. I also have to note that I feel like its been 2 weeks straight that we are playing some of our big boys at end (TJ Sanders and DQ Jones). This may be due to injury (Bosa has been nursing a hand and AJE was out last week).

 

We cant ignore that we are light at LB. Bernard is good when he shoots a gap properly and forcing the play back inside, but if the OL gets to the second level, he gets taken out of the play more times then not. Milano, as much as I love him has been injured and is aging. 

 

I think McD has been trying to impliment more 4-3 base, but the injury to Shaq Thompson has killed that plan since hes been out. When we are in 4-3 and either Dorian or Thompson are in, we fare better against the run game.

 

Now to explain our issues on 3rd and long. This appears to be an issue thats been around for years under McD. Im not sure if teams are just successfully finding the soft spot in the zone and McD is relying too much on only sending 4 in the pass rush. Or if our pressure packages are just not up to snuff. Is it a personnel issue? Guys not winning there 1v1 at the LOS? Im not sure, but boy is it frustrating.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[HoofHearted]

1 hour ago, Dr. Who said:

Are these coaching issues? Can we make technical adjustments and suddenly be a more effective defense?

Some of the defensive problems persist across the years with different personnel, so I had wondered if it was a scheme issue.

I recollect you have insight, so I'd appreciate it if you could briefly explain why it is not a scheme issue.

We are built to be a penetrating, movement based, front. Inherently this will lead to you getting gashed every once in a while, but should lead to far more disruptives than just sitting back and reading. Key reads and, in conjunction, initial attack steps off those reads can absolutely improve with coaching and reps.

 

Our issue right now just seems to be age, on both ends really. You have young guys still learning and growing into the scheme while getting used to the speed of the pro game. On the flip side there’s guys who have lost a step and it’s showing as well. If you’re a half step slow in the trenches it’s the difference in making a tackle for a loss vs. getting reached or washed in the run game.

 

I started going through this weekends game today and was actually encouraged with what I saw from the defensive line, though admittedly I only got a few series in. Backers struggled with reads. Both Dorian and Milano were noticeably slow on some plays. Taron fit incorrectly on one. LBs not working the plus consistently on zone.

 

Overall we do look a lot better than we did earlier in the year, though admittedly I haven’t dissected the stuff from earlier in the year outside of just what I saw watching the game. 

 

 

[Shaw66]

5 hours ago, DrBob806 said:

I don't think anything can change at this point of the season, unless they decide to blitz more. Implementing a brand new scheme is very rare 10 games in to a season.

 

It's one reason why I predicted a 42-38 Bills win yesterday. 

 

The Bills are kind of like an old PAC 12 or Big 12 team. They focus on outscoring the other team, and hope to make a few defensive stops during a game.

I think we will see some different things as we get deeper into the season. I said earlier in the year, and I'll say it again, that I think later in the season we're going to see more man-to-man. It will be sprinkled in, but there will be more of it. I think. Think Benford, White and Hairston all can play it. 

 

I also think we will begin to see more blitzing paired with the man-to-man. There's been very little blitzing so far this year, and I think that will change. 

 

On top of that, I think we will see the zone defenses tightening down a bit. One reason all of those passes get completed underneath the corners is because they're playing deep enough to prevent the deep ball from being in play at all. I think it's been McDermott's plan all along to tighten up the zone coverages as the season goes on and as his young defenders learn the schemes.

 

But I don't think the pass defense is the problem. It's the run defense that has to be much more consistent. McDermott has been clear for years that he's willing to give up running yardage in order to stop the passing game, and the stance. This season is similar to other seasons. We're at the top of the league in past defense and in the middle of the league and run defense., this season we're at the bottom of the league and run defense.

[HoofHearted]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I thought I saw multiple snaps with a bear front, but I was watching it on my ipad in an airport hotel so I wouldn't stake my life on it haha. 

 

I agree on all three points in your second para re. both scheme not being the issue, DL not having anyone that commands doubles without Ed, plays too upright and the second level defenders being a problem. I think the second level has been worse than the DL personally. Pretty much all season.

In the few series I’ve watched so far in this game I’d definitely agree. Backers looked to have clear run throughs early on in the game. DL definitely looks much improved from earlier in the year at least through the first couple series of the game I was able to look at from the endzone angle in this game.

[HoofHearted]

20 minutes ago, Aesop said:

Ive been saying it for awhile. We lack a stud 1 tech. And with oliver out, we are down to depth at the 3 tech. I also have to note that I feel like its been 2 weeks straight that we are playing some of our big boys at end (TJ Sanders and DQ Jones). This may be due to injury (Bosa has been nursing a hand and AJE was out last week).

 

We cant ignore that we are light at LB. Bernard is good when he shoots a gap properly and forcing the play back inside, but if the OL gets to the second level, he gets taken out of the play more times then not. Milano, as much as I love him has been injured and is aging. 

 

I think McD has been trying to impliment more 4-3 base, but the injury to Shaq Thompson has killed that plan since hes been out. When we are in 4-3 and either Dorian or Thompson are in, we fare better against the run game.

 

Now to explain our issues on 3rd and long. This appears to be an issue thats been around for years under McD. Im not sure if teams are just successfully finding the soft spot in the zone and McD is relying too much on only sending 4 in the pass rush. Or if our pressure packages are just not up to snuff. Is it a personnel issue? Guys not winning there 1v1 at the LOS? Im not sure, but boy is it frustrating.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Our pass rush is not good. We resorted to overloading one side of the line yesterday and completely playing unsound vs the run in obvious passing situations just to ensure we get 1v1s and we still weren’t great winning those. Our interior twist game is awful - as athletic as we are up front we sure do struggle to read and move laterally with our interior guys. Also doesn’t help that we’re playing with tackles at end in obvious passing situations.

[Dr. Who]

23 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

We are built to be a penetrating, movement based, front. Inherently this will lead to you getting gashed every once in a while, but should lead to far more disruptives than just sitting back and reading. Key reads and, in conjunction, initial attack steps off those reads can absolutely improve with coaching and reps.

 

Our issue right now just seems to be age, on both ends really. You have young guys still learning and growing into the scheme while getting used to the speed of the pro game. On the flip side there’s guys who have lost a step and it’s showing as well. If you’re a half step slow in the trenches it’s the difference in making a tackle for a loss vs. getting reached or washed in the run game.

 

I started going through this weekends game today and was actually encouraged with what I saw from the defensive line, though admittedly I only got a few series in. Backers struggled with reads. Both Dorian and Milano were noticeably slow on some plays. Taron fit incorrectly on one. LBs not working the plus consistently on zone.

 

Overall we do look a lot better than we did earlier in the year, though admittedly I haven’t dissected the stuff from earlier in the year outside of just what I saw watching the game. 

 

 

Thanks. This is somewhat more hopeful than I had supposed. I had surmised that McDermott took over calling the D, and that was the main engine of any discernible improvement. It would be encouraging if development of the younger players is also part of that. They still have to limit the explosive running plays. They're making a fella like Tucker appear to be an all pro.

[97bills]

On 11/16/2025 at 7:34 PM, TFBillsfan said:

After this game, the Bills may be dead last in run D. 🤮🤮🤮🤮 Outside of Hoecht and Oliver, the rest of the D is for the most part healthy. 
 

After ten games in, what needs to change? Is the run game D issues the DL or LB? The secondary looks somewhat better but that soft zone on 3rd and long has to change. It’s embarrassing watching the Bills D consistently giving up easy 3rd and long conversions.

 

Pass rush is lackluster and there is no one that is even remotely consistent enough. Far too often the pass rush is neutralized. We are not a very good blitzing team either. 
 

Would love to hear other’s thoughts on how this D improves down the stretch?  There is no calvary coming so unless we plan on winning every game in a shootout something has to change!

Sounds like the last past 8 years, I think by now it’s safe to say it want change. This is who McDermott is. 

[Matt_In_NH]

On 11/16/2025 at 9:27 PM, cage said:

Did Hairston play today??  I don't think I saw him a single time

Did you watch the 43 yard run?   Watch it again

[Solomon Grundy]

DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS!! GET IT FIXED SEAN!! THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE YOUR SPECIALTY. McDermott constantly speaks about players not maintaining their gap responsibility. Why is this consistently happening?? Year after year it's the same answer to the question. If said player/players aren't doing their jobs, why aren't they replaced? I'm, personally, just tired of the excuses from the coach. The Bills lost to the Dolphins and Falcons because their RBs gashed his defense. This season is a perfect opportunity for this team to win a SB. I know Josh will do whatever it takes offensively to win. Will McDermott be willing to do so?

[HoofHearted]

On 11/16/2025 at 8:07 PM, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

I have several ideas but I’m sure none of them will happen 

 

-scrap the zone. Pretty self explanatory. It doesn’t work. I’ll live with the occasional guy getting beat over the top. I can’t stand watching guys settle in and have anything they want on 3rd down.

 

-stop rotating so much. No other team insists on constantly putting the worse players in. I don’t care about fresh legs if the guys that have them are backups

 

-play more base defense. I want 3 LBs on the field as much as possible 

-play less alignments where the edge is being set by the corners. It’s too much to ask. Put them in man and stop the run with guys that belong there 

 

-put the better guys on the field. that sounds like a joke but we don’t do it. 7,8,27 belong on the bench. It’s truly that simple.

 

-stop giving so much freedom underneath. We don’t get there. The ball is coming out to fast. So get up in the WRs face and get hands on someone. 
 

-set the tone. Play physical. Enough of this ***** soft shell bend but don’t break. I want to bend the players backwards and break the other teams will. A defense should be playing fast and loose. Coming downhill. Making you uncomfortable. We should be frustrating teams and causing teams to tap out. Not falling back praying for mistakes. Go make them make one. 
 

the problem with the defense is the scheme. It’s the coach. It’s McDermott. We have good players on that side of the ball. We have spent plenty of resources on it and a good DC could have this group at the top of the league. I have zero faith in this guy to change. He owes it to all of us and he definitely owes it to Josh. There are lots of in house fixes that can make us significantly harder to play against but unfortunately this coach is clueless. He needs to be removed from the room and allow an independent thinker to fix the mess he made 

So as far as scheme changes you just want us to play man out of 4-3 personnel?

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

So as far as scheme changes you just want us to play man out of 4-3 personnel?

Much more man.
Much more base 4-3.

Much more physical at the line, less free releases. 

d line alignment to set the edge in the run game more than relying on boundary corners 

 

the A number 1 thing is mess nickel. There’s the biggest issue iMO

[HoofHearted]

2 hours ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

Much more man.
Much more base 4-3.

Much more physical at the line, less free releases. 

d line alignment to set the edge in the run game more than relying on boundary corners 

 

the A number 1 thing is mess nickel. There’s the biggest issue iMO

If you're gonna do that you better hope you stop the run with the front 7 otherwise you'll see even more big runs with the entire secondaries back being to the play. Our fits have been an issue for a variety of reasons. Age (both young and old), poor key recognition, overlaps fitting too wide, it's not a singular problem. As far as corners being force players in the run game, this is unavoidable, especially when teams run as much condensed sets as they do in the NFL.

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

54 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

If you're gonna do that you better hope you stop the run with the front 7 otherwise you'll see even more big runs with the entire secondaries back being to the play. Our fits have been an issue for a variety of reasons. Age (both young and old), poor key recognition, overlaps fitting too wide, it's not a singular problem. As far as corners being force players in the run game, this is unavoidable, especially when teams run as much condensed sets as they do in the NFL.

Would you say we are stopping the run now? I’d strongly prefer to stop it with the DTs and the LBs. I mean, put Thompson, Dorian Williams AND Milano on the field and I bet you we stop the run

[HoofHearted]

7 minutes ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

Would you say we are stopping the run now? I’d strongly prefer to stop it with the DTs and the LBs. I mean, put Thompson, Dorian Williams AND Milano on the field and I bet you we stop the run

The disconnect is a lot of fans think stopping the run is personnel driven when in reality it's population to the football and being gap sound. The people don't matter as long as they fit properly. You have to have the numbers advantage. The big runs are coming, more often than not, in situations where we lose the numbers advantage because of poor reads and initial attack steps or just poor fits in general not because we are getting overpowered up front.

 

Take this week for example. The big 43 yard touchdown happened because Taron Johnson didn't read his key, went flying into the box and we gave up the edge because of it. Additionally, he ran into Bernard and took him out of the play. Milano had a poor read backside and was slow to fit off the GT pull action away. All that combined we were -1 to the playside when we should have been +1 had everyone done their job correctly.

[Kelly to Allen]

At the end of the day very few if anyone trusts our defense for the playoffs regardless if they get healthy, Oliver is back etc....

 

After the AFC championship last year I just don't trust this defense anymore for the playoffs. 

 

I do think we can win the Superbowl, but They're going to have to play offense like they did vs Tampa and try to have 0-1 turnovers per game. 

 

I do think the defense could probably help with one playoff game, maybe a couple for ed turnovers in another....but the offense will need to go scorched Earth 

 

Still holding out hope for the 1 seed.

 

 

Edited 15 minutes ago by Kelly to Allen

[Jalan81]

On 11/16/2025 at 7:34 PM, TFBillsfan said:

After this game, the Bills may be dead last in run D. 🤮🤮🤮🤮 Outside of Hoecht and Oliver, the rest of the D is for the most part healthy. 
 

After ten games in, what needs to change? Is the run game D issues the DL or LB? The secondary looks somewhat better but that soft zone on 3rd and long has to change. It’s embarrassing watching the Bills D consistently giving up easy 3rd and long conversions.

 

Pass rush is lackluster and there is no one that is even remotely consistent enough. Far too often the pass rush is neutralized. We are not a very good blitzing team either. 
 

Would love to hear other’s thoughts on how this D improves down the stretch?  There is no calvary coming so unless we plan on winning every game in a shootout something has to change!

How will it change? This is McDermotts creation, he believes in it. 9 years it’s getting worse, it’s not gonna change until he’s gone, it’s all he knows…