Bills don't "need" a WR, they need to use the ones they have better

[Mikey152]

19 hours ago, FormerLV-BILLS said:

I'm sorry, but that's crap.  Also unscientific.  I realize that.  At the same time, who the hell else in the NFL thinks that running the ball in this era is better than having a strong passing attack.  And to make it look even dumber, lets minimize the skills of a 6'4", 240 pound, 29 year old MVP QB while we are at it.  This is the dumbest ish I've ever seen.  How about loading up your QB AND keep feeding Cook?  That'd be cool, no?

 

As bad as the defense has been, letting the team down in the playoffs, the offense too, which has been prolific has failed in crunch time.  They've had the ball with chances late in games and stalled.  Multiple times in big end of game situations. Period.  That's fact.  

 

Why'd they stall?  Because when you need sure fire talent to make plays in crucial situations, sooner or later, talent is needed.  And the Bills offense has failed.  

 

I don't give a crap if they steamroll their division, and all the crap that they run up their numbers against garbage in the regular season.  It's worthless.  That's a given with a QB as generational as Allen is.

 

Can they do it when it counts?  And the answer lately is a big fat NO.  Who are we counting on to make the big play, when stars are all over the field on both teams with a chance to go to the Superbowl?  Late in the 4th quarter.  4th and 6.  Need a play from someone other than Allen.

 

Coleman?  Samuel?  Kincaid?  Remember, Kincaid had his chance to be special at the end of the game last year, and failed.  First round pick, couldn't make the clutch slightly above average catch.  Fact.  Who else, Shavers?  Knox?  Is Cook going to run it for 7 yards on a 4th down and 6?  

 

Who's going to make the play?

 

It's as simple as that.  You can throw the offensive numbers crap out the door at that point, because they mean squat.  You need an Alpha.  Everybody eats crap is high school stuff.  Time to grow up and get some studs, even if they buck "culture" a bit.  

 

Have a pair Beane and McDermott and go for it one friggin time.  

 

This isn't difficult.  Our WRs suck, and it hurts our team big time.

Steph Diggs was one of the top three WR in the NFl for at least two of his four seasons in Buffalo, and his failure to produce in the playoffs is a big reason we are where we are.  I think you have it completely backwards.

Edited 4 hours ago by Mikey152

[Ray Stonada]

I'd like us to stop running WR screens (not to mention TE end-arounds).

 

Shakir is actually at his best catching the ball in space and then making guys miss, not reading and following blocks.

 

How about a screen to COOK?

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

4 minutes ago, Ray Stonada said:

I'd like us to stop running WR screens (not to mention TE end-arounds).

 

Shakir is actually at his best catching the ball in space and then making guys miss, not reading and following blocks.

 

How about a screen to COOK?

 

Well... they work with a pretty high frequency so i'd say don't stop doing that.  

[machine gun kelly]

22 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

I honestly think they have enough if they just used them better. Moore or Samuel against most CB4's should win.

Turk, I agree we are not using let’s see Moore, Knox, Samuel enough or in the right manor, ans lastly I understand Kinkaid had the oblique, but he’s the most impactful target outside of Cook, and of course Allen.

 

I like the ball control offense, but we aren’t being as versatile as we can be.  Escalating utilization of Moore and Samuel as long as healthy downfield, not the BS behind the lines.  Increasing Kinkaid utilization, and getting our 3 RBs involved in the passing game is paramount for an ever increasing offense.

 

I know it’s devastating losing Oliver and Hoecht, but increasing utilization to get reps in Miami with Hairston’s and Hancock is so important as that is when they both need.  REPS!  Same goes for Bishop.  Cam Lewis can handle Miami so we get one more week with Taron resting.  We can only pray Milano, Williams, and Bernard doesn't get hurt.  We also have to have a healthy Benford for this defense to work.

 

I know Prater made a mistake last week, but until Bass is absolutely 100% healthy, we stick with Prater.

 

Anyway, this is just my two cents on what to do.  You guys can debate it all you want as that is what we do on this board.  There are a lot of decent football minds on this board as I consider myself to an extent one of them.  That doesn’t mean I’m right and another is wrong.

 

Turk, although I appreciate youre sentiment, we could’ve still benefited from getting Shaheed vs. the Hawks.  That was a bad miss on Beane’s part, or Olave.  I know some speculation was a move for Brian Thomas and that could’ve worked.  Now we have nothing, and that sucks.

[vtnatefootball11]

19 hours ago, T.E. said:

Trust me, I am not defending his contract. But we might as well make him earn it, right?

 

Fair and agree to an extent. We do use multiple tight end formats more than most teams, so not sure there is much more for him to do absent taking over TE1 from Kincaid (which nobody wants).  Point is, we needed an outside receiver who is a difference maker, not more of Knox. Too late at this point in the season, just got to hope Josh plays out of his mind every single game of the playoffs when good, well coached teams crowd the middle and stop Cook. Maybe a healthy Palmer and Gabe Davis help things slightly, but not holding my breath. 

[TBBills Fan]

22 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Elijah Moore averaged 60 receptions for the last two seasons with QB’s in Cleveland.  For him not to have really any production here is weird.  
 

He gets open.  He has speed.  He has good hands.

 

I think Brady overthinks and doesn’t take the obvious.
 

Palmer and Moore should have good production in this offense.  

This and MVS having production after we let them go makes me wonder

 

Is it a Josh thing, a Brady thing, a scheme thing, a play call thing or all the above

 

We know Josh likes Coleman. We all also know he was force feeding coleman earlier this year before people started looking at Coleman's efficiency. Now Brady is the one putting him on the field, calling the plays and Josh is trying to give Coleman chance after chance...

 

Plays like Samuel being this wide open have to be analyzed during the film review..so let's hope Josh and Joe realize it.  

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

1 hour ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

They lost the patriots game because they turned it over 3x and couldn't execute in the red zone.  3 passes from the 27 with 2:46 left in the game was also certainly "a choice" - for a running team that is down 3 points.  

Yeah, the red zone woes were directly attributable to Josh trying to force it to his receivers down field. How about dumping it down to Knox for 7 yards? A play that was there all game!

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

21 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

Yeah, the red zone woes were directly attributable to Josh trying to force it to his receivers down field. How about dumping it down to Knox for 7 yards? A play that was there all game!

 

I just don't know how they don't run there on either 1st or 2nd and 10.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, TBBills Fan said:

This and MVS having production after we let them go makes me wonder

 

Sometimes below average pass catchers just have an outlier season, and in MVS's case it wasn't even a full season it was a couple games. Mack Hollins had 690 yards with the Raiders in 2022. Our own Dawson Knox had 587 yards and 9 TDs in 2021. I don't think there's much to wonder about. Below average players always revert to their expected production. That's why MVS is now relegated to practice squads.

[TBBills Fan]

19 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Sometimes below average pass catchers just have an outlier season, and in MVS's case it wasn't even a full season it was a couple games. Mack Hollins had 690 yards with the Raiders in 2022. Our own Dawson Knox had 587 yards and 9 TDs in 2021. I don't think there's much to wonder about. Below average players always revert to their expected production. That's why MVS is now relegated to practice squads.

MVS had a decent run with KC too tho

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, vtnatefootball11 said:

 

Fair and agree to an extent. We do use multiple tight end formats more than most teams, so not sure there is much more for him to do absent taking over TE1 from Kincaid (which nobody wants).  Point is, we needed an outside receiver who is a difference maker, not more of Knox. Too late at this point in the season, just got to hope Josh plays out of his mind every single game of the playoffs when good, well coached teams crowd the middle and stop Cook. Maybe a healthy Palmer and Gabe Davis help things slightly, but not holding my breath. 

 

I guess the Bills see his value in the versatility it gives their offense to do anything they want. With 1 TE on the field they are 8th in passing efficiency, with 2 TE's they are 3rd and with 3 TE's they are 1st.

 

A large part of our success is having 3 TE's that have dual capabilities so that even in run heavy formations we can actually come out and be successful passing because we have created mismatches with the defense having to bring in bigger, slower, less athletic players to stop the run.

 

Now, I am not saying that to defend his contract, it's still absurd, but at least that gets to why they are OK with it right now.

 

Also, is it not strange that the Bills existed for so long without even a single good TE on the roster and now they have 3 of them?

Edited 2 hours ago by Big Turk

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

19 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Sometimes below average pass catchers just have an outlier season, and in MVS's case it wasn't even a full season it was a couple games. Mack Hollins had 690 yards with the Raiders in 2022. Our own Dawson Knox had 587 yards and 9 TDs in 2021. I don't think there's much to wonder about. Below average players always revert to their expected production. That's why MVS is now relegated to practice squads.

 

MVS production in the final 3 weeks for NO last year: 

 

17 targets - 5 catches - 97 yards

[Big Turk]

Just now, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

MVS production in the final 3 weeks for NO last year: 

 

17 targets - 5 catches - 97 yards

 

Once Carr got hurt that pretty much reduced his effectiveness to near nothing.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

2 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

I guess the Bills see his value in the versatility it gives their offense to do anything they want. With 1 TE on the field they are 8th in passing efficiency, with 2 TE's they are 3rd and with 3 TE's they are 1st.

 

A large part of our success is having 3 TE's that have dual capabilities so that even in run heavy formations we can actually come out and be successful passing. 

 

Now, I am not saying that to defend his contract, it's still absurd, but at least that gets to why they are OK with it right now.

 

Also, is it not strange that the Bills existed for so long without even a single good TE on the roster and now they have 3 of them?

 

He is a plus blocker, and plays more snaps than any other TE on the roster.  

[Big Turk]

2 hours ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

They lost the patriots game because they turned it over 3x and couldn't execute in the red zone.  3 passes from the 27 with 2:46 left in the game was also certainly "a choice" - for a running team that is down 3 points.  

 

I have so many issues with what they did that game. Essentially Allen refused to take layups that were there all game, kept trying to force things downfield, bailed from clean pockets instead of waiting an extra half second to see things coming wide open downfield, was throwing off platform and with bad footwork all game long and refused to use his legs to take easy yards when there was wide open green grass in front of him.

 

Essentially if you listed everything we could do to screw ourselves over, we did it in that game and the next game. I don't know what it is, but I've just accepted at this point that we are going to have 2 games in mid October every year where we look nothing like the team we are the rest of the year, the offense will be bad and then we will course correct. Not sure what else to think because it's happened 5 straight years.

Edited 2 hours ago by Big Turk

[HappyDays]

7 minutes ago, TBBills Fan said:

MVS had a decent run with KC too tho

 

Meh. KC fans couldn't wait to get rid of him. He got 687 yards, then 315 yards, and then he was cut. He's a marginal NFL player that got overpaid based on potential that he never lived up to. Tyquan Thornton had a nice run with KC earlier this year because they had no other targets to get the ball to, and now with their WR room fully healthy he's doing nothing for them. That is basically what happened with MVS during that several game stretch with New Orleans. Not once did I ever regret letting him go or think we had misused him. Remember Isaiah Hodgins? Marginal players can have a few games where they produce above their weight class but in the end the ball doesn't lie.

 

Edited 2 hours ago by HappyDays

[Big Turk]

6 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

He is a plus blocker, and plays more snaps than any other TE on the roster.  

 

Right, because he is still TE1 that plays in-line and will be in there in single TE formations with Kincaid more as the split TE that gets moved all over like a chess piece and also if they bring Hawes in to block as the 2nd TE on a play.

 

He basically gets snaps in all situations while the others usually get them more situationally.

Edited 2 hours ago by Big Turk

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Meh. KC fans couldn't wait to get rid of him. He got 687 yards, then 315 yards, and then he was cut. He's a marginal NFL player that got overpaid based on potential that he never lived up to. Tyquan Thornton had a nice run with KC earlier this year because they had no other targets to get the ball to, and now with their WR room fully healthy he's doing nothing for them. That is basically what happened with MVS during that several game stretch with New Orleans. Not once did I ever regret letting him go or think we had misused him. Remember Isaiah Hodgins? Marginal players can have a few games where they produce above their weight class but in the end the ball doesn't lie.

 

 

This was sort of my concern with shaheed.  I liked him as a plus returner, and a situational piece - but i'm not sure as a situational piece he's that much superior to samuel other than in the availability category. 

 

3 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Right, because he is still TE1 that plays in-line and will be in there in single TE formations with Kincaid more as the split TE that gets moved all over like a chess piece and also if they bring Hawes in to block as the 2nd TE on a play.

 

He basically gets snaps in all situations while the others usually get them more situationally.

 

Yeah, just saying - everyone complains how overpaid he is but its like the guys basically a 6th OL half the time.  Some of that pay is for things that don't show up in the box score.  And I'd also imagine that when he is running routes, he's not 

 

Kincaid - 208 snaps - 140 routes run

Knox - 288 snaps - 122 routes run

Hawes - 225 snaps - 39 routes run

 

 

[Big Turk]

2 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

This was sort of my concern with shaheed.  I liked him as a plus returner, and a situational piece - but i'm not sure as a situational piece he's that much superior to samuel other than in the availability category. 

 

 

Yeah, just saying - everyone complains how overpaid he is but its like the guys basically a 6th OL half the time.  Some of that pay is for things that don't show up in the box score.  And I'd also imagine that when he is running routes, he's not 

 

Kincaid - 208 snaps - 140 routes run

Knox - 288 snaps - 122 routes run

Hawes - 225 snaps - 39 routes run

 

 

 

Damn I wasn't aware the snaps were that close...

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

3 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Damn I wasn't aware the snaps were that close...

 

Kincaid missed the Atlanta game, and barely played in carolina (14 snaps) since that was just the james cook show.  Last week he played only 23 snaps and was outsnapped by knox and hawes, but also by samuel and shavers - and still managed 6 catches and 101 yards.  So in the last 4 weeks including the bye he's only played 37 snaps and has 7 catches for 124 yards and a TD.