Does there need to be a rethinking of the basic D?

[GunnerBill]

53 minutes ago, BananaB said:

There has also been a number of games we lost down one score and the D wasn’t able to make a stop to get the ball back and the opposing team just ran the clock out. 

 

There have also been a number of games up one score where the defense has got the stop. Including two wins at Kansas City (22 and 23) and the division clincher in Miami two years ago just off the top of my head. I accept there have been some failures too. Maybe just the way my brain works I find the successes easier to recall quickly.

 

 

[BarleyNY]

2 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

So youre still on board for Edgemunds? lol.  His ineffectiveness at the blitz is why i thought moving him to edge was silly.  

It was mind boggling how he could be that athletic and yet so ineffective as a blitzer. 

[Mikie2times]

I just want to a defense that at some point can shut a good team down. Just the capability to swarm an above average offense. As we saw from the Eagles last year vs the Chiefs. Heck, as we saw multiple times in the drought years. 

 

Those outcomes simply won't happen with this team. It's all bend but don't break, living in the Nickle, without valuing the one tech. Our base mode is not shutting down the run game. It's knowing eventually a TFL will occur. Our base mode in the passing game is not to challenge teams, its forcing 5 yard chunks all the way down the field in hopes they make a mistake. This is Dick Jauron or Walt Corey ball, and I preferred Wade Phillips or Jim Schwartz.

 

I really can't imagine how dangerous this team would be with a defense that can really punch you in the mouth even if sometimes it lays an egg. It's the difference between we will make them fight for every inch vs they will make a mistake. Just disagree with McD's philosophy here.      

[tigerthelion]

3 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

I just want to a defense that at some point can shut a good team down. Just the capability to swarm an above average offense. As we saw from the Eagles last year vs the Chiefs. Heck, as we saw multiple times in the drought years. 

 

Those outcomes simply won't happen with this team. It's all bend but don't break, living in the Nickle, without valuing the one tech. Our base mode is not shutting down the run game. It's knowing eventually a TFL will occur. Our base mode in the passing game is not to challenge teams, its forcing 5 yard chunks all the way down the field in hopes they make a mistake. This is Dick Jauron or Walt Corey ball, and I preferred Wade Phillips or Jim Schwartz.

 

I really can't imagine how dangerous this team would be with a defense that can really punch you in the mouth even if sometimes it lays an egg. It's the difference between we will make them fight for every inch vs they will make a mistake. Just disagree with McD's philosophy here.      

Kind of how I think, also.  Mediocre quarterbacks and poor quarterbacks will usually make those mistakes before driving their teams down the field.  The better quarterbacks, for the most part, will be happy to drive down the field with easy completions for fourteen play drives resulting in touchdowns, if that is what you give them.  

 

It is worth giving up some quick big plays to the opposition if the defense can impose their will and force the opposition out of their comfort zone more often than not.  

[dayman]

2 hours ago, tigerthelion said:

Kind of how I think, also.  Mediocre quarterbacks and poor quarterbacks will usually make those mistakes before driving their teams down the field.  The better quarterbacks, for the most part, will be happy to drive down the field with easy completions for fourteen play drives resulting in touchdowns, if that is what you give them.  

 

It is worth giving up some quick big plays to the opposition if the defense can impose their will and force the opposition out of their comfort zone more often than not.  

Whatever the scheme it won’t work with these guys. If everything is perfect and healthy we have a roster that can hang in there. If anyone gets hurt at almost any level it starts to get damn rough real quick.

 

spoiler alert: they’re going to get hurt 

[NastyNateSoldiers]

This team will never win with Mcd schemes and Beane players! 

[rjbbills]

Some different players, same results. Common denominator is coaching. McD, Babich, DB coach, etc. If they refuse to change, then they can coach themselves out of a job this year. Hopefully one of them watched the super bowl last year to learn something. 

[Gregg]

1 minute ago, rjbbills said:

Some different players, same results. Common denominator is coaching. McD, Babich, DB coach, etc. If they refuse to change, then they can coach themselves out of a job this year. Hopefully one of them watched the super bowl last year to learn something. 

 

The Eagles have a lot of talent on their defense. Coaching definitely plays a part, but Beane (so far) hasn't been able to build a good defense either with the draft and FA. 

[GunnerBill]

23 minutes ago, rjbbills said:

Some different players, same results. Common denominator is coaching. McD, Babich, DB coach, etc. If they refuse to change, then they can coach themselves out of a job this year. Hopefully one of them watched the super bowl last year to learn something. 

 

The Eagles definitely watched the Bills to learn something. Vic Fangio ran the 2021 (regular season) Leslie Frazier gameplan in the Superbowl. 

[YattaOkasan]

22 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

The Eagles have a lot of talent on their defense. Coaching definitely plays a part, but Beane (so far) hasn't been able to build a good defense either with the draft and FA. 

What are you talking about.  Beane more often than not has a top 10 defenses in terms of yards and points.  In 2021 they were #1 in points and yards (top 5 in TOs too).  In 2019 they were #2 and #3 in points and yards.  Just wow we are now a vibe based football community.  

Edited August 21 by YattaOkasan

[Gregg]

2 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

What are you talking about.  Beane more often than not has a top 10 defenses in terms of yards and points.  In 2021 they were #1 in points and yards (top 5 in TOs too).  In 2019 they were #2 and #3 in points and yards.  Just wow we are now a vibe based football community.  

 

They padded their stats against bad teams with bad QBs. Whenever they played a good offense with a good QB they got exposed. We see it every year especially in the playoffs. It is the main reason they haven't reached the Super Bowl.

[SCBills]

From all reports out of practices, the Bills are going to be running a more aggressive/attacking Defense. 
 

Bend, don’t break works against bad/mediocre QB play, but gets shredded by Burrow and Mahomes.  
 

Notice I didn’t say Lamar, because as much as the media wants to force it down our throats, he’s not the surgeon Burrow, Allen and Mahomes are in the pocket.   Which is why our defense stands a chance against him in big moments.   That, along with his tendency to make a few mistakes in big games. 
 

We can say “well, we haven’t been healthy”… ok for 4-5 years this has been an issue in the playoffs and we keep rostering injury prone guys like Rapp, Bishop, Milano, Bernard, Johnson.. add Benford to the list if he doesn’t have a clean year.  
 

So either change the identity or keep banging your head against the wall. 
 

I’ll withhold judgment until I see this team, with its new investments and supposed new identity.  But I’m running out of patience if it’s the same ish, different year. 

[YattaOkasan]

1 minute ago, Gregg said:

 

They padded their stats against bad teams with bad QBs. Whenever they played a good offense with a good QB they got exposed. We see it every year especially in the playoffs. It is the main reason they haven't reached the Super Bowl.

So you dont consider #1 in points and scoring "good".  Do your thoughts about "padding stats" apply to 2019 as well?  What about the other years with a top 10 defense for points and yards (again more than half the time).  If you were to say he hasnt made an elite defense that gives you nothing in the playoffs then I wouldnt care.  But that wouldnt fit your narrative.  To say he hasnt put a "good" defense on the field is just silly.  You clearly dont think there are more than 1-2 good defenses in any given year if you dont think he has put a good one out there.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

They padded their stats against bad teams with bad QBs. Whenever they played a good offense with a good QB they got exposed. We see it every year especially in the playoffs. It is the main reason they haven't reached the Super Bowl.

 

They have not got it done in the post season, that's true but it is simply not true to say every time they play a good offense with a good QB they get exposed. 

[SCBills]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They have not got it done in the post season, that's true but it is simply not true to say every time they play a good offense with a good QB they get exposed. 

When is the last time this Defense looked good against a Good QB/Good Offense not led by Lamar Jackson?

 

Honest Question.  Maybe for a half against Goff & the Lions?  A few regular season games against Mahomes, but then he does whatever he wants against us in the Playoffs.  
 

Stafford torched us last year. 
 

In the Playoffs, we’ve beaten dregs like Skylar Thompson, rookie Bo Nix, Mac Jones.   Josh Allen had to be Player of WC Weekend to stave off Old Man Rivers a few years back.  
 

Edited August 21 by SCBills

[Buffalo4Life01]

Just now, YattaOkasan said:

So you dont consider #1 in points and scoring "good".  Do your thoughts about "padding stats" apply to 2019 as well?  What about the other years with a top 10 defense for points and yards (again more than half the time).  If you were to say he hasnt made an elite defense that gives you nothing in the playoffs then I wouldnt care.  But that wouldnt fit your narrative.  To say he hasnt put a "good" defense on the field is just silly.  You clearly dont think there are more than 1-2 good defenses in any given year if you dont think he has put a good one out there.

I don't think he is pushing any narrative here.  Beane certainly has assembled a solid defense most years that generates a lot of turnovers and plays well for the most part during the regular season.  They do tend to get shredded by high end qb's with regularity.  Yes, most teams do not fair well against Mahomes and Burrow and the like, but those teams seem to get the better of Buffalo's defense year in and year out, regardless of the scheme.  The defense as a hole also seems to get obliterated each year in the playoffs.  That can't be attributed to injuries alone.  The scheme of bend but don't break will never be good enough to get this team to the Super Bowl.

It's just as simple as saying 'the defense does NOT pass the eye test in the playoffs'.  You can talk about all the regular season stats you want, they are meaningless when it really counts.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, SCBills said:

When is the last time this Defense looked good against a Good QB/Good Defense not led by Lamar Jackson?

 

Honest Question.  Maybe for a half against Goff & the Lions?  A few regular season games against Mahomes, but then he does whatever he wants against us in the Playoffs.  
 

Stafford torched us last year. 
 

In the Playoffs, we’ve beaten dregs like Skylar Thompson, rookie Bo Nix, Mac Jones.   Josh Allen had to be Player of WC Weekend to stave off Old Man Rivers a few years back.  

 

Ah so if we are not allowed to count the games where the defense looked good against a good QB when did they last look good against a good QB? Errmmm well you sure got me there. 🙄

 

I have already accepted they have not got it done in the playoffs. There is no doubt about that.

[SCBills]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Ah so if we are not allowed to count the games where the defense looked good against a good QB when did they last look good against a good QB? Errmmm well you sure got me there. 🙄

 

I have already accepted they have not got it done in the playoffs. There is no doubt about that.

It’s not a gotcha post.  I’m legitimately asking..

 

Theres a reason we can defend Lamar.  He’s not the pocket passer other elite QBs are, I don’t care how often the media tries to tell us he is.  And he makes mistakes the others don’t in high leverage moments. 
 

Thats why we can beat him with this Defense. 
 

He has traits that line up with the types of bad/mediocre QBs we tend to dominate, even though I do consider him with his athletic ability, a Top 4 QB with Allen, Mahomes and Burrow. 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, SCBills said:

It’s not a gotcha post.  I’m legitimately asking..

 

Theres a reason we can defend Lamar.  He’s not the pocket passer other elite QBs are, I don’t care how often the media tries to tell us he is.  And he makes mistakes the others don’t in high leverage moments. 
 

Thats why we can beat him with this Defense. 
 

He has traits that line up with the types of bad/mediocre QBs we tend to dominate, even though I do consider him with his athletic ability, a Top 4 QB with Allen, Mahomes and Burrow. 

 

We have held Mahomes down in the regular season, we have held Lamar down, we have held Stafford down (though agree not last year), we have held Rodgers down even when he was still a Packer.... have we done it as much the last 2 seasons - no agreed, we haven't. That is talent. The talent on the D right now is not where it was with peak White, Hyde, Poyer, Milano, Taron etc as those guys have aged and got banged up. 

 

And we haven't come up big when it matters in the playoffs. 

 

Oh and while Lamar might not be Allen, Mahomes, Burrow he is MUCH better in the pocket now than you are giving him credit for. He is not an elite pocket passer but he is damn good. His improvement is consistently overlooked IMO.

 

 

[Gregg]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo4Life01 said:

I don't think he is pushing any narrative here.  Beane certainly has assembled a solid defense most years that generates a lot of turnovers and plays well for the most part during the regular season.  They do tend to get shredded by high end qb's with regularity.  Yes, most teams do not fair well against Mahomes and Burrow and the like, but those teams seem to get the better of Buffalo's defense year in and year out, regardless of the scheme.  The defense as a hole also seems to get obliterated each year in the playoffs.  That can't be attributed to injuries alone.  The scheme of bend but don't break will never be good enough to get this team to the Super Bowl.

It's just as simple as saying 'the defense does NOT pass the eye test in the playoffs'.  You can talk about all the regular season stats you want, they are meaningless when it really counts.

 

I remember in the "Darmar" game when Burrow torched the Bills D for an easy TD on the opening drive. The Bengals were heading for a 2nd easy TD on their 2nd drive of the game before the game was stopped. Two things over the years the Bills defense have struggled with. Getting pressure on the QB with just their front four and doing a better job stopping the run. Beane made a lot of moves this offseason to improve that side of the ball. Hopefully it pays off otherwise it will be another year of playoff disappointment. I don't care about rankings in the regular season. When you have a QB as a good as Allen they need to get to a Super Bowl and have a shot to win one. The defense needs to step up when it counts and in the Allen era, they haven't done that.