Wide Receiver Train Full Speed Ahead- CHOO CHOO!

[hondo in seattle]

1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

McDermott is a defensive minded coach. I don't think that Beane had the authority to pick an wide receiver in the first round without the approval/consent of McDermott. I do believe that Beane has the power to make trades in order to get players that McDermott and the staff want, but I do not think that he has the final say.

 

So, we disagree but I appreciate the dialogue.

 

Yeah, Bill, we disagree because I do believe Beane has the final say but neither one of us is in a position to prove our case.  At least, I'm not.  It would be cool, though, if we could embed ourselves into OBD a week before the draft, sit in all the meetings, and hang out in the war room when the picks are made.  Maybe when I win the lottery, I'll buy a big enough stake in the Bills that Terry allows us both inside the building.  

[HaldimandBills]

2 hours ago, finn said:

To quote Ripley from the second Aliens movie, "Did the IQs just drop sharply while I was away?" I didn't say or suggest Beane should ignore the defense and prioritize the offense. Good lord. 

 

Re-read my posts. I'll wait. (I suggest looking up "Straw-man fallacy" while you're at it.)

I came in way too hot and obnoxious and I apologize. 

 

I just don't see a world where the Bills could do it all this off season and I firmly believe the correct choice was loading up the defense. 

 

Bills had two options.

 

Bills trade away most of their premium draft capital to land the # 1 receiver you want at the expense of any defensive depth. 

 

or 

 

Bills do what they did and finally address defense early with multiple picks to fix that side of the ball which has been pathetically underwhelming. 

 

Bills couldn't do both this off season. 

 

 

Edited 16 hours ago by HaldimandBills

[BADOLBILZ]

8 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

I thought I was alone on this take.  It was one of the most botched sequences I've seen and was even worse than anything 13 seconds related imo.  The standard counter was well he would've completed it to Shakir in the end zone if Jones didn't back Dawkins into him messing up the throw.  No.  The odds of him hitting that throw were extremely low even if he threw it untouched.  Also, even if they get the TD there isn't a sole on planet earth who thought the Bills hobbled defense led by AJ Klein was going to stop the Chiefs from winning that game with that much time left.  I didn't know whether to blame Brady for even giving Allen that option or Allen for getting greedy when you had a guy wide open running six yards across the field.  The situational awareness was just awful the way that game was playing out.  I think we were too banged up to beat Baltimore the next week but I would've at least liked to see them try.

 

 

2nd and 9 is worse than 13 seconds because the strategy they concocted during the timeout was inherently flawed.  They had nearly executed a SB XXV level game of keep-away and lost their minds in the clutch.  All the debate about kicking the ball short or into the end zone on 13 seconds only matters because they didn't execute in the final 13 seconds.   1 adequately defended defensive play and the game is over.  

 

The attempted longshot to Shakir after the two minute warning was damned if it worked AND if it didn't.   

 

Ultimately, we just aren't allowed to talk about failures that Josh Allen could be considered at all accountable for.   The media and fans alike are terrified to be critical of him.   And for multiple reasons.   They don't want him to want to leave.   And we've seen choking become habitual with the Kelly era Bills so we don't want to fracture his confidence.   The truth is we feel that he is more important to the organization/community than any SB win he could generate.   He's bigger than the brand.   I can't really think of a similar situation in sports.   Maybe Giannis with the Bucks?   I don't know.  

 

The problem with being that way is you can't get to the truth if you omit what you wish you hadn't seen.  

 

My contention is that the lack of playmakers in the passing game has set him up for failure.   He's personally thrown away his share of games with bad decisions late over his career.   If he has Travis Kelce putting up 100 yards per game in the playoffs every year maybe he still doesn't win them all or even 3 of 5 like Mahomes.   But we may never know what it would look like for him to have a guy who makes a difference playing with Allen in the playoffs.

[Steve Billieve]

9 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

2nd and 9 is worse than 13 seconds because the strategy they concocted during the timeout was inherently flawed.  They had nearly executed a SB XXV level game of keep-away and lost their minds in the clutch.  All the debate about kicking the ball short or into the end zone on 13 seconds only matters because they didn't execute in the final 13 seconds.   1 adequately defended defensive play and the game is over.  

 

The attempted longshot to Shakir after the two minute warning was damned if it worked AND if it didn't.   

 

Ultimately, we just aren't allowed to talk about failures that Josh Allen could be considered at all accountable for.   The media and fans alike are terrified to be critical of him.   And for multiple reasons.   They don't want him to want to leave.   And we've seen choking become habitual with the Kelly era Bills so we don't want to fracture his confidence.   The truth is we feel that he is more important to the organization/community than any SB win he could generate.   He's bigger than the brand.   I can't really think of a similar situation in sports.   Maybe Giannis with the Bucks?   I don't know.  

 

The problem with being that way is you can't get to the truth if you omit what you wish you hadn't seen.  

 

My contention is that the lack of playmakers in the passing game has set him up for failure.   He's personally thrown away his share of games with bad decisions late over his career.   If he has Travis Kelce putting up 100 yards per game in the playoffs every year maybe he still doesn't win them all or even 3 of 5 like Mahomes.   But we may never know what it would look like for him to have a guy who makes a difference playing with Allen in the playoffs.

Good god man, is anything good in life?

[GunnerBill]

8 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

OK but if the above is indeed true, shouldn't McDermott shoulder some of the blame for any draft blunders? I see post after post singling out Beane, and Beane  certainly doesn't appear to be making these picks in a vacuum. I have never worked in a place where more than one person had "final" say. Is it even possible? 

 

As I have previously stated, my opinion of McDermott as a coach has improved. That said, most of our early draft picks look to have his signature on it, if trading away Mahomes to the Chiefs and selecting a first round corner (before the arrival of Beane) is to be used as evidence, or at the very least suspicion of this.

 

Beane does have final say over the draft. You should watch his pre draft presser this year. He explained their process very clearly from building the board the board to the involvement of the coaches to the final decision. It was almost exactly how it was described to me by someone who used to work for the Bills. 

 

McDermott doesn't make draft picks or demand certain players. Your suspicion that defense = McDermott is wrong I am afraid. Where however he does deserve some blame is on a miss like Kaiir Elam. Because for the guys near the top of the Bills board the coaches have watched those guys and have given at least some level of reassurance they can be fitted into the scheme. With Elam I never thought that was likely and it never worked. That is the role the coaches play - after the evaluation but before the final board is set - do these guys fit our scheme. Where they have clunky scheme fits there is an element of McDermott and his staff sharing the blame. Where it is just bad talent evaluation, that is Beane. The team building strategy is also Beane. Undervaluing wide receivers is him. He says it repeatedly. He believes Quarterback, then trenches. It is the Carolina model he grew up with. Quarterback and then defensive front 7 was very much the way the Panthers drafted. They also took three round one running backs while Beane was there... luckily he hasn't done that yet.

[Doc Brown]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

2nd and 9 is worse than 13 seconds because the strategy they concocted during the timeout was inherently flawed.  They had nearly executed a SB XXV level game of keep-away and lost their minds in the clutch.  All the debate about kicking the ball short or into the end zone on 13 seconds only matters because they didn't execute in the final 13 seconds.   1 adequately defended defensive play and the game is over.  

 

The attempted longshot to Shakir after the two minute warning was damned if it worked AND if it didn't.   

 

Ultimately, we just aren't allowed to talk about failures that Josh Allen could be considered at all accountable for.   The media and fans alike are terrified to be critical of him.   And for multiple reasons.   They don't want him to want to leave.   And we've seen choking become habitual with the Kelly era Bills so we don't want to fracture his confidence.   The truth is we feel that he is more important to the organization/community than any SB win he could generate.   He's bigger than the brand.   I can't really think of a similar situation in sports.   Maybe Giannis with the Bucks?   I don't know.  

 

The problem with being that way is you can't get to the truth if you omit what you wish you hadn't seen.  

 

My contention is that the lack of playmakers in the passing game has set him up for failure.   He's personally thrown away his share of games with bad decisions late over his career.   If he has Travis Kelce putting up 100 yards per game in the playoffs every year maybe he still doesn't win them all or even 3 of 5 like Mahomes.   But we may never know what it would look like for him to have a guy who makes a difference playing with Allen in the playoffs.

It would be nice for the Bills to build a strong enough team where a B+ game by Allen gets them past the Chiefs.  I think you can address it by re imagining your defense with some new players especially on the d-line and a minor tweak in philosophy which is why I think McDermott brought in some outside guys to his defensive staff.  I agree about the lack of play makers and I doubt Palmer or Moore move the needle.  However, I didn't think Mack Hollins and James Cook would step up as big as they did in the AFC Championship game last year so who knows.  I'd sacrifice TJ Williams and Chase Lundt if it meant getting DK Metcalf but I digress.

 

As far as criticism of Allen goes, if you're the highest paid player in the league you should be scrutinized as long as its fair.  I couldn't care less about the fragility of the fan base. Regardless of how our defense played he still had the ball down three with a chance to win the game.  The offense didn't come through either time.  Allen's also 0-5 in overtime when the offense has had the ball needing a TD to win.  There's room for growth.

 

 

[Bill from NYC]

10 hours ago, Solomon Grundy said:

For years the Bills have been trying to outscore the Chiefs in an effort to beat them. They even had the rules changed. I believe finally the Bills concluded that in order to beat them, they have to stop them. I believe they saw the success that the Eagles and Bucs had against the Chiefs and decided to go that route. 

Sounds like a reasonable theory.

[GunnerBill]

48 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

It would be nice for the Bills to build a strong enough team where a B+ game by Allen gets them past the Chiefs.  I think you can address it by re imagining your defense with some new players especially on the d-line and a minor tweak in philosophy which is why I think McDermott brought in some outside guys to his defensive staff.  I agree about the lack of play makers and I doubt Palmer or Moore move the needle.  However, I didn't think Mack Hollins and James Cook would step up as big as they did in the AFC Championship game last year so who knows.  I'd sacrifice TJ Williams and Chase Lundt if it meant getting DK Metcalf but I digress.

 

As far as criticism of Allen goes, if you're the highest paid player in the league you should be scrutinized as long as its fair.  I couldn't care less about the fragility of the fan base. Regardless of how our defense played he still had the ball down three with a chance to win the game.  The offense didn't come through either time.  Allen's also 0-5 in overtime when the offense has had the ball needing a TD to win.  There's room for growth.

 

 

 

TJ Sanders..... but yes to everything else.

[SoTier]

13 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

McDermott is a defensive minded coach. I don't think that Beane had the authority to pick a wide receiver in the first round without the approval/consent of McDermott. I do believe that Beane has the power to make trades in order to get players that McDermott and the staff want, but I do not think that he has the final say.

 

So, we disagree but I appreciate the dialogue.

 

I think that you see the relationship between Beane and McDermott as much more adversarial than it probably is.  Beane and McDermott are friends and their friendship goes back to their early days together at Carolina.  I also think their philosophies on team building are very similar, too.  I think that the use of "McBeane" by some posters isn't far off the mark in describing how the Bills select talent.  They collaborate not compete.

[BADOLBILZ]

9 hours ago, Steve Billieve said:

Good god man, is anything good in life?

 

The fact that you have to ask me is your problem.   I can relate to those of you stuck in a state of suspended adolescence where you feel that your happiness is out of your control.   Because I was a kid.   But that semi-incarcerated experience is supposed to push you out of the nest.   I worked hard and smart, fortune favored that, and I got everything I'll ever want at an early age.  Entertainment is just entertainment to me.  

 

Being a Bills fan is a lifestyle but Bills football is just a hobby.   I pay them a lot of money so I am entitled to hold them to the underlying promise that all pro sports teams make with their fans in exchange for suspending their disbelief regarding the team belonging to the community/fans.   The promise that they are doing their best to win championships.   Football is a highly competitive blood sport(by todays standards).   

 

That said,  a SB win would only matter to me because it will be a couple more days to party.   After the parade is over it's back to business as usual.   No ring.  No trophy.   My mlb team and family school have won a combined 11 WS and NC's in football in my life.  It's fun, you buy a shirt and it's something to rib other teams fans about.  It doesn't materially change anything.   The journey is the reward. 

[RoscoeParrish]

14 hours ago, Solomon Grundy said:

For years the Bills have been trying to outscore the Chiefs in an effort to beat them. They even had the rules changed. I believe finally the Bills concluded that in order to beat them, they have to stop them. I believe they saw the success that the Eagles and Bucs had against the Chiefs and decided to go that route. 

I’m not sure that theory holds true.

 

We have tried to get guys to stop the Chiefs like Rousseau/Boogie with our top 2 picks. The splash FA signing of Von.

 

Not sure there’s been a massive philosophy change as much as “we need to keep trying.”

[Alphadawg7]

Facts:  Highest scoring team in the AFC in both the regular season and post season...and 16th greatest offense in NFL history.

 

Facts:  The offense has to try and be perfect and score 35+ points per playoff game because the defense is giving up 35 PPG to the Chiefs in the postseason.  A team that lost the next game 3 times after eliminating us where they avg 17 points per game (less than half they score on us).

 

Facts:  We had guys open and wide open multiple times on our last series, the personnel at WR was not at all why we failed on our last series.  Batted passes at he LOS, missed throws, and cheating the protection to the wrong side all during those 4 plays is why our wide open receivers and TE's did not receive the ball.  It was not because guys were not open. 

 

Facts:  Bills Defense was amongst the worst in the NFL both in 3rd down conversions and 1st downs allowed and was highly dependent on turnovers, an unsustainable way to play defense, especially against the better QB's in the post season.

 

Its mind blowing how people keep clamoring for "help" for Josh Allen and completely whiffing on the very obvious way to give Allen the most help is to give him a defense that can just get off the field once or twice more a game so the offense isn't being asked to be perfect at all times.

[Doc Brown]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

TJ Sanders..... but yes to everything else.

Yes.  Thanks.  It was either Pat or Kyle on my mind with DT's.  Strange coincidence that the Bills drafted a player with a first name Deone and a player with the last name Sanders before his kid was taken in the same draft.

[LEBills]

27 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Facts:  Highest scoring team in the AFC in both the regular season and post season...and 16th greatest offense in NFL history.

 

Facts:  The offense has to try and be perfect and score 35+ points per playoff game because the defense is giving up 35 PPG to the Chiefs in the postseason.  A team that lost the next game 3 times after eliminating us where they avg 17 points per game (less than half they score on us).

 

Facts:  We had guys open and wide open multiple times on our last series, the personnel at WR was not at all why we failed on our last series.  Batted passes at he LOS, missed throws, and cheating the protection to the wrong side all during those 4 plays is why our wide open receivers and TE's did not receive the ball.  It was not because guys were not open. 

 

Facts:  Bills Defense was amongst the worst in the NFL both in 3rd down conversions and 1st downs allowed and was highly dependent on turnovers, an unsustainable way to play defense, especially against the better QB's in the post season.

 

Its mind blowing how people keep clamoring for "help" for Josh Allen and completely whiffing on the very obvious way to give Allen the most help is to give him a defense that can just get off the field once or twice more a game so the offense isn't being asked to be perfect at all times.

It’s because even when the Bills have had a top defense, they still lost in the playoffs. In 2021, the Bills defense was #1 in total defense, yards per play, passing yards allowed, passing yards per play, first downs allowed per game, third down conversion rate, and points per game. We know how that season ended.

So the people asking for more help for Josh still just think he can make better use of talent than the defensive coaches. And even still, most people are happy with how the first two days of the draft panned out and just wanted the Bills to try and add a weapon for Josh early on day 3 of the draft. To add someone to develop into a weapon for Josh in a year or two so we don’t have to keep signing mediocre FA at WR.

[Alphadawg7]

18 minutes ago, LEBills said:

It’s because even when the Bills have had a top defense, they still lost in the playoffs. In 2021, the Bills defense was #1 in total defense, yards per play, passing yards allowed, passing yards per play, first downs allowed per game, third down conversion rate, and points per game. We know how that season ended.

So the people asking for more help for Josh still just think he can make better use of talent than the defensive coaches. And even still, most people are happy with how the first two days of the draft panned out and just wanted the Bills to try and add a weapon for Josh early on day 3 of the draft. To add someone to develop into a weapon for Josh in a year or two so we don’t have to keep signing mediocre FA at WR.

 

I don't know we ever had a defense though where people felt it was a "top defense".  We also can't live in the past and also not live in this notion that Josh can still keep doing more.  That was a different defense in Fraziers gross bend but don't break soft defense and we were missing our best player on defense that year in Tre.  Thats like saying well Elam didn't work out so we should never draft a CB again in the first round.  It has no relevancy on today...there are not even many players on this defense from that 2021 team.  

 

We were the 16th greatest offense in NFL history this year despite the offense coasting whole quarters and halves in our NFL record number of blow out wins and Josh sitting week 17.  Asking the offense to be even better is a ridiculous expectation when meanwhile our defense was bottom of the league in first downs allowed and 3rd down conversions.  What is more achievable ask and more realistic to see a noticeable improvement?  

 

Also...the top 10 offenses of all time only had 3 teams win a SB, none of the top 4 either.  In fact, the top 2 (2007 Pats and 2013 Broncos) got shut down in the Super Bowl and lost to conservative offenses with top tier defenses..numbers 3 and 4 didn't even reach a SB.  So more offense has not been the answer historically either.  

 

 

[LEBills]

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I don't know we ever had a defense though where people felt it was a "top defense".  We also can't live in the past and also not live in this notion that Josh can still keep doing more.  That was a different defense in Fraziers gross bend but don't break soft defense and we were missing our best player on defense that year in Tre.  Thats like saying well Elam didn't work out so we should never draft a CB again in the first round.  It has no relevancy on today...there are not even many players on this defense from that 2021 team.  

 

We were the 16th greatest offense in NFL history this year despite the offense coasting whole quarters and halves in our NFL record number of blow out wins and Josh sitting week 17.  Asking the offense to be even better is a ridiculous expectation when meanwhile our defense was bottom of the league in first downs allowed and 3rd down conversions.  What is more achievable ask and more realistic to see a noticeable improvement?  

 

Also...the top 10 offenses of all time only had 3 teams win a SB, none of the top 4 either.  In fact, the top 2 (2007 Pats and 2013 Broncos) got shut down in the Super Bowl and lost to conservative offenses with top tier defenses..numbers 3 and 4 didn't even reach a SB.  So more offense has not been the answer historically either.  

 

 

Ok I’m not sure we had an offense last year everyone thought was truly a “top offense”😂. It’s also a good idea not to live in the past and assume our offense will be as good this year as it was last year without more talent.

 

There are lots of ways to win a championship. Some of us think adding to the offense is better, some of us think adding to the defense is better. Like I said before, most of us were happy with the first three picks because we know the defense can improve. I’d say the biggest argument in this thread is Beane could have managed the later part of the draft different to get some young talent added to the skill positions for Josh both for this year and for years down the road. 

[Bill from NYC]

9 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

We were the 16th greatest offense in NFL history this year despite the offense coasting whole quarters and halves in our NFL record number of blow out wins and Josh sitting week 17.  

 

I'm not trying to get into an argument, but I'm wondering, does the above stat takes into account the extended schedule? I ask this because some of those teams included in this stat might have also sat there QBs in the final game when they already had clinched, this in a 14 game season. Also, the running was much more prevalent before the rule changes which would seem to indicate less scoring.

 

Again, just asking.