Coleman = Benjamin, Davis = Moss - Beane players

[LeGOATski]

16 minutes ago, harmonkillebrew said:

I'm hopeful Shakir takes the next step. He came on strong at the end, but he had two established WRs taking away the best CBs. He'll now be more of a target.

What bothers me is that we don't have a field stretcher anymore. That seems a shame with Josh's howitzer.

 

You'd have thought that after trading Steph and letting Gabe walk that they might have made more of an investment - traded up, drafted two guys, etc... The Diggs trade for a 2025 pick in particular stinks for this year. I guess the plan is to see who Josh can float.  Maybe he won't need a #1, but a variety of guys all on the same script. 

Field stretcher in your terms has to be Samuel as he's the only guy with elite top end speed. Shakir also has good top end speed, but they're not going to use him that way. Coleman can still "stretch the field" per say, but in the same way Gabe Davis did it. Coleman's top end speed isn't fast, but he gets there quick and is a threat to make the play, even if he's covered. He's still running 21-22 mph when he gets to full speed, too. It's nothing to sneeze at.

[harmonkillebrew]

2 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

Coleman's an exceptional athlete and great route runner. I think that'll make a difference in allowing him to be successful. 

 

I don't think he's Mike Evans. I don't know why people started making that comparison. Wishful thinking, I guess.

 

He's Robbie Anderson to me. Robbie was the same height, but about 20 lbs lighter, which attributed to a faster 40 time. Yet Coleman had a better 10 yard split and the same vertical and broad jumps, give and take an inch respectively. Both are/were explosive, fluid athletes with great hands and jump ball getters.

Robbie Anderson was/is a lanky burner. He ran in the 4.3s  (I know its fashionable to dismiss the 40 suddenly, but it still matters as a metric among others)

Coleman is much more muscular.... and slower.  His split time is very solid and his gauntlet speed was impressive. He should develop into a solid middle of the field target. Some are saying he's a good deep threat because of his jump ball ability but I'm not buying that.  CBs are too good in the NFL. Dominating long speed is the only way to beat them long.  

 

The Bills passed on some guys, like Worthy, that KC really liked. Are the Bills smarter than KC? We both needed WRs.  They chose a fast, shifty guy, we chose a bigger guy with less long speed.  We'll see who's right in the end, I guess. 

 

I think the difference is probably in offensive philosophy. The Chiefs still believe in big plays and speed. The Bills want to control the ball.  

I just fundamentally disagree with not trying to be explosive and hit big plays. With a guy like Josh, we need more WRs that can get open quickly on deep-intermediate routes, in addition to the Kincaid and Shakir's we already have on the team to work the short stuff.

 

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

Field stretcher in your terms has to be Samuel as he's the only guy with elite top end speed. Shakir also has good top end speed, but they're not going to use him that way. Coleman can still "stretch the field" per say, but in the same way Gabe Davis did it. Coleman's top end speed isn't fast, but he gets there quick and is a threat to make the play, even if he's covered. He's still running 21-22 mph when he gets to full speed, too. It's nothing to sneeze at.

It's more than just speed. It's also route-running, physicality to beat the press, tracking the ball, and hands on over the shoulder catches.  

Gabe had a few of those traits, but not the speed. Coleman is similar, but just slower still. 

 

Samuel has never been a field stretcher despite the 40 time, probably due to lack of playing strength and maybe tracking. 

 

[LeGOATski]

25 minutes ago, mrags said:

Allen spoke up and wanted Dorsey room that worked out well. 

That's beside the point. He has the ears of this FO, so I doubt he's going to be disgruntled by their moves. You say he's being wasted, and maybe so, but it's not like a Rodgers situation where the FO doesn't listen to him. You say they're not making the moves to help Josh, but I doubt Josh feels that way. Josh has had an elite WR for most of his career, plus good vet role players, and in the past two drafts they've taken two receivers with their first pick who they think can be great in Kincaid and Keon.

[Mikie2times]

3 minutes ago, harmonkillebrew said:

The Bills passed on some guys, like Worthy, that KC really liked. Are the Bills smarter than KC? We both needed WRs.  They chose a fast, shifty guy, we chose a bigger guy with less long speed.  We'll see who's right in the end, I guess. 

Why do you assume KC has been good at picking WR's? The premise of your post is, big player bad, Beane like big player, Beane bad. Fast player good, KC like fast player, KC good. As I said, it's lazy. KC has drafted absolute trash at WR since they picked Mahomes. You would be better off betting against who they picked at WR a significant amount of the time.   

 

 

[BringBackFergy]

WTF is this thread title?

[CaptnCoke11]

5 hours ago, harmonkillebrew said:

Beane has a real tendency for a certain type of player.

Ray Davis is a  Zack Moss clone

Coleman isn't too far off from Kelvin Benjamin and Devin Funchess.

 

None of those guys panned out.

 

Seems Beane consistently under values speed in skill players.  I was hoping we'd come out of this draft faster and more explosive on O, but instead it's more of the usual.

 

Coleman would have been a decent replacement for Gabe. Similar skill set. Is Samuel supposed to be the Diggs replacement? Hard to see us being better on offense. 

 

Or defense for that matter. They don't seem to have a vision or plan for getting better than the Chiefs. Feels like a reset year.

Such a horrible comparison.  Just shows your ignorance 

[LeGOATski]

7 minutes ago, harmonkillebrew said:

 Dominating long speed is the only way to beat them long.  

 

That's simply not true. We see guys win deep every Sunday who are strong and get the jump ball. By all accounts, Coleman is already a good route runner and there's no doubt he's an explosive athlete. We'll see.

[mrags]

1 minute ago, LeGOATski said:

That's beside the point. He has the ears of this FO, so I doubt he's going to be disgruntled by their moves. You say he's being wasted, and maybe so, but it's not like a Rodgers situation where the FO doesn't listen to him. You say they're not making the moves to help Josh, but I doubt Josh feels that way. Josh has had an elite WR for most of his career, plus good vet role players, and in the past two drafts they've taken two receivers with their first pick who they think can be great in Kincaid and Keon.

I guess if you feel that way. I don’t. 
 

when you have a double Josh (Rodgers is not the norm) you surround him with talent and weapons as often as you can to help him succeed. At least if you’ve shown to be close multiple times but never accomplished the goal. After Diggs, they have never really tried to get him an elite WR. And honestly, they were hoping Diggs would be that. He was good in Min but he want top 5 WR in the league good until Josh. I think it’s pretty obvious that Josh brings out the best in his WRs. Look at Brown, Beasley, Diggs, Davis (we’ll know soon enough). They’ve all had their career years under Josh. Let’s surround him with so much talent that he gets even better. Instead we’ve declined in offensive talent since Beasley and Brown left. In top of the fact that since they left, the front office and coach have been using their departure as an excuse that they needed to get faster on offense. They needed more explosive plays on offense. They needed more big time plays on offense. And we have literally gone the opposite way since that’s happened. 
 

And what do we do this year? We trade away Diggs (and I was actually fine with this fyi) and don’t replace him with anything. I guess if you want to count Samual and his 850 yards and 3 TDs for a career high as replacing Diggs. But if that’s the case, you and I are in complete opposite ends of the spectrum on what we believe successful season is at the WR position. And we draft a ridiculously slow WR that’s like the clone of Gabe Davis, a guy we just let go in FA because he wasn’t good enough. I hope I’m wrong. I really really do. But my hopes are not high for this kid. They are not high for this team. And honestly, I’m sick of it. 

[LeGOATski]

2 minutes ago, mrags said:

And what do we do this year? We trade away Diggs (and I was actually fine with this fyi) and don’t replace him with anything.

 

And we draft a ridiculously slow WR that’s like the clone of Gabe Davis

These are false, sensationalized statements. They ruin any well-intentioned argument you're trying to make (which I'd be happy to hear if it was presented in a rational manner.)

 

I'm not gonna rehash what's already been said, so whatever.

[Mikie2times]

7 minutes ago, mrags said:

I guess if you feel that way. I don’t. 
 

when you have a double Josh (Rodgers is not the norm) you surround him with talent and weapons as often as you can to help him succeed. At least if you’ve shown to be close multiple times but never accomplished the goal. After Diggs, they have never really tried to get him an elite WR. And honestly, they were hoping Diggs would be that. He was good in Min but he want top 5 WR in the league good until Josh. I think it’s pretty obvious that Josh brings out the best in his WRs. Look at Brown, Beasley, Diggs, Davis (we’ll know soon enough). They’ve all had their career years under Josh. Let’s surround him with so much talent that he gets even better. Instead we’ve declined in offensive talent since Beasley and Brown left. In top of the fact that since they left, the front office and coach have been using their departure as an excuse that they needed to get faster on offense. They needed more explosive plays on offense. They needed more big time plays on offense. And we have literally gone the opposite way since that’s happened. 
 

And what do we do this year? We trade away Diggs (and I was actually fine with this fyi) and don’t replace him with anything. I guess if you want to count Samual and his 850 yards and 3 TDs for a career high as replacing Diggs. But if that’s the case, you and I are in complete opposite ends of the spectrum on what we believe successful season is at the WR position. And we draft a ridiculously slow WR that’s like the clone of Gabe Davis, a guy we just let go in FA because he wasn’t good enough. I hope I’m wrong. I really really do. But my hopes are not high for this kid. They are not high for this team. And honestly, I’m sick of it. 

Honestly dude, you have no clue at all. I don't either. None of us do, not even the teams that make the picks really know. I don't know how on earth you see Gabe Davis with Coleman but you're going to see what you want to see. 

[harmonkillebrew]

8 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

That's simply not true. We see guys win deep every Sunday who are strong and get the jump ball. By all accounts, Coleman is already a good route runner and there's no doubt he's an explosive athlete. We'll see.

It's many factors, but speed is the most reliable. His high jump was not as high as I would have thought. I think his contested catch rate also wasn't super great.

I think he'll be like Gabe.  If we hadn't traded Diggs, he'd be a good replacement for Gabe on the outside. Can he replace what Diggs used to be before 2nd half of the season, I'm just not convinced. 

12 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Why do you assume KC has been good at picking WR's? The premise of your post is, big player bad, Beane like big player, Beane bad. Fast player good, KC like fast player, KC good. As I said, it's lazy. KC has drafted absolute trash at WR since they picked Mahomes. You would be better off betting against who they picked at WR a significant amount of the time.   

 

 

I see you conveniently stopped at 2017, as Tyreek Hill was drafted in the 6th in 2016.

Moore seems like a bust but Rice was pretty good as a rookie.  Hardman had his moments. Everyone else was Rd 4-6.

The one thing I see in that chart is that the Chiefs at least tried. They invested a 1st or 2nd in 4 out of the past 6 years. They're committed to getting weapons for Mahomes. I'm not sure the Bills are.

[Mikie2times]

5 minutes ago, harmonkillebrew said:

It's many factors, but speed is the most reliable. His high jump was not as high as I would have thought. I think his contested catch rate also wasn't super great.

I think he'll be like Gabe.  If we hadn't traded Diggs, he'd be a good replacement for Gabe on the outside. Can he replace what Diggs used to be before 2nd half of the season, I'm just not convinced. 

I see you conveniently stopped at 2017, as Tyreek Hill was drafted in the 6th in 2016.

Moore seems like a bust but Rice was pretty good as a rookie.  Hardman had his moments. Everyone else was Rd 4-6.

The one thing I see in that chart is that the Chiefs at least tried. They invested a 1st or 2nd in 4 out of the past 6 years. They're committed to getting weapons for Mahomes. I'm not sure the Bills are.

I didn't conveniently stop anything. They have gone on to win two Super Bowls without him. Stop moving the goal posts. You said Bean draft slow player bad, KC draft fast player good. Not Beane don't draft WR. So what is the complaint and how can you irrationally link it to this draft? While you're at it, outside of Hill, let me know the names of a few pro bowl burners who have won a super bowl the last decade. Hardly a prerequisite of anything. 

[27yanks]

Come on folks, we'll know for sure come September. 

[BillsFanForever19]

You'd think Josh Allen would have taught posters around here to not judge a Draft Pick before they've even played a down in the NFL. Setting yourself up for a potentially embarrassing cold take.

[harmonkillebrew]

7 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

I didn't conveniently stop anything. They have gone on to win two Super Bowls without him. Stop moving the goal posts. You said Bean draft slow player bad, KC draft fast player good. Not Beane don't draft WR. So what is the complaint and how can you irrationally link it to this draft? While you're at it, outside of Hill, let me know the names of a few pro bowl burners who have won a super bowl the last decade. Hardly a prerequisite of anything. 

This thread is about Beane's seeming tendency, across many years, to like big-bodied slower WRs and maybe also slower RBs that run between the tackles. The similarities are there. Is Beane out of step offensively? Is McDermott? 

The Bills have taken a lukewarm approach to surrounding Josh with explosive weapons, since the Diggs trade. It's been a long standing issue. Gabe was a 4th rounder. That same draft (2020) they drafted AJ Epenesa and Zack Moss in the 2nd and 3rd (eerily similar RB/WR pattern to this year) The next draft it was 2 DEs in the top 2 rounds. 

There was a glaring WR need this year and it feels like the Bills had the wrong priorities. Didn't make us faster or deeper at WR. I might have changed my tune if they had drafted Franklin or Tez Walker in the 3rd/4th.  But to just roll with Coleman seems risky.

[BillsFanForever19]

Josh Allen said he watched a lot of Wide Receivers this offseason and that Keon Coleman was the guy he wanted to play with. If Josh thinks he's the guy that will work best with his style - that's all I need to hear.

[LeGOATski]

44 minutes ago, harmonkillebrew said:

It's many factors, but speed is the most reliable. His high jump was not as high as I would have thought. I think his contested catch rate also wasn't super great.

I think he'll be like Gabe.  If we hadn't traded Diggs, he'd be a good replacement for Gabe on the outside. Can he replace what Diggs used to be before 2nd half of the season, I'm just not convinced. 

I think he'll be consistently 1000-1200 yards and 6-10 TDs per year.

[White Linen]

4 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

They're both big wideouts from the same school scouted/drafted early by Beane, relax

 

 Incorrect, one was drafted by Gettleman.  

[GoBills808]

21 minutes ago, White Linen said:

 

 Incorrect, one was drafted by Gettleman.  

Yes that's why I said scouted

[Mikie2times]

1 hour ago, harmonkillebrew said:

This thread is about Beane's seeming tendency, across many years, to like big-bodied slower WRs and maybe also slower RBs that run between the tackles. The similarities are there. Is Beane out of step offensively? Is McDermott? 

The Bills have taken a lukewarm approach to surrounding Josh with explosive weapons, since the Diggs trade. It's been a long standing issue. Gabe was a 4th rounder. That same draft (2020) they drafted AJ Epenesa and Zack Moss in the 2nd and 3rd (eerily similar RB/WR pattern to this year) The next draft it was 2 DEs in the top 2 rounds. 

There was a glaring WR need this year and it feels like the Bills had the wrong priorities. Didn't make us faster or deeper at WR. I might have changed my tune if they had drafted Franklin or Tez Walker in the 3rd/4th.  But to just roll with Coleman seems risky.

Josh Brown, Cole Beasley, Khalil Shakir, Deonte Harty, Jamison Crowder......are these big body WR's? Is James Cook a bruising RB?