Why the Bills don't "need" a traditional X receiver

[hondo in seattle]

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think having Knox and Kincaid as our two 'ends' is a winning formula.  Not enough speed to threaten defenses vertically.  And what if one gets hurt?

 

TEs are nice.  But a team needs a diversity of weapons to challenge a good NFL defense.  Let me daydream for a moment.  Imagine we had our current TEs and wideouts and added Eric Moulds and Lee Evans to the mix.  That would make for a dynamic aerial attack.  We need to move more in that direction.  

 

 

[Mikey152]

38 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think having Knox and Kincaid as our two 'ends' is a winning formula.  Not enough speed to threaten defenses vertically.  And what if one gets hurt?

 

TEs are nice.  But a team needs a diversity of weapons to challenge a good NFL defense.  Let me daydream for a moment.  Imagine we had our current TEs and wideouts and added Eric Moulds and Lee Evans to the mix.  That would make for a dynamic aerial attack.  We need to move more in that direction.  

 

 

This is an acceptable take...the two TE set isn't for everyone, and if the goal is to push Knox and/or Kincaid to the bench (and the whole 6th lineman concept), then that is a different story.

 

 

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, Mikey152 said:

A few points...

 

I'm not really seeing where you addressed my point about "where" players are lined up...are you talking about having an X on the LOS so another receiver can go in motion? If so, you're literally missing the entire point of my post. With two TE on the field a significant amount of the time, there is less need to line up a receiver at X when you can just have a TE do it.

 

Further, I think you are missing the whole point. Of course, all things being equal I would take a big fast WR with good hands and ability to separate...but those guys are almost always draft in the top 10. If they slide past that, there is usually something wrong with them. I'd take a Calvin Johnson, sure...but I don't want another Gabe Davis. In the late first round, you're going to be choosing between big fast guys with holes in their game, slot guys, and burners that lack size. Everyone I've seen on this board thinks our WR are too small and we need the big bodied X receiver like Mitchell or Leggette (or mortgage the future for Odunze) to go with Shakir and Samuel, and pretty much ignore and/or want to double dip on guys like Worthy, Franklin, Wilson, etc...all of whom were more productive in college AND better deep threats/YAC players.

 

Maybe you should go watch the Lions play offense. And while you're at it, tell me all about their huge X receiver...I'll wait.

Dawson Knox is a pretty mediocre receiver, though. You lose a lot when you're putting him on the field instead of a WR, particularly in playoff games that turn into shootouts when the opposing qb is Burrow or Mahomes. I think @BADOLBILZ is referring specifically to playoff football here, which is where the Bills fall apart offensively.  

[Mikey152]

25 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Dawson Knox is a pretty mediocre receiver, though. You lose a lot when you're putting him on the field instead of a WR, particularly in playoff games that turn into shootouts when the opposing qb is Burrow or Mahomes. I think @BADOLBILZ is referring specifically to playoff football here, which is where the Bills fall apart offensively.  

And you lose something in the running game when you take him off...

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's a different conversation. Benching Knox for a rookie WR and running lots of 3 wide doesn't really seem like something we are going to do a lot, but who knows...I suppose it is possible and may be dictated by the opponent. 

Edited April 25 by Mikey152

[Solomon Grundy]

1 hour ago, hondo in seattle said:

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think having Knox and Kincaid as our two 'ends' is a winning formula.  Not enough speed to threaten defenses vertically.  And what if one gets hurt?

 

TEs are nice.  But a team needs a diversity of weapons to challenge a good NFL defense.  Let me daydream for a moment.  Imagine we had our current TEs and wideouts and added Eric Moulds and Lee Evans to the mix.  That would make for a dynamic aerial attack.  We need to move more in that direction.  

 

 

Troy Franklin gives me those Lee Evans vibes for some reason. Him and Keon Coleman added to this roster would be nice

Edited April 25 by Solomon Grundy

[PBF81]

22 hours ago, Back2Buff said:

I dont trust Joe Brady enough to be able to scheme plays where a traditional X is not needed.  I think we will end up with these smaller slot guys all getting jammed at the line.

 

Agreed.  There's plenty of receivers to make this passing game well above average for a creative OC given that Allen's our QB.  If he can't do that, well, ... let's see whether it happens first.  

 

McD is not creative in his offensive planning, it would seem that he's trying to recreate what KC's done with Kincaid being the "Kelce" here.  

 

Having said all of that, they're nuts if they don't take a WR tonight.  

 

 

Edited April 25 by PBF81

[warrior9]

22 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Hardest players to jam are small quick guys. Easiest are big guys.

 

Its not about size and strength, its about technique and understanding what the defense is trying to do.

 

 

 

So Diggs was ABUSED at the line against the Chiefs..... known for his technique and route running. He's also 6 ft 1 and 200 pounds.. he's no twig. 

Easiest guys to jam are little guy off the line.. Small quick guys work out of the slot and in motion for a reason. 

 

Just because you're quick, doesn't mean you can move in a 1 yard box... . CB's line up within 1 yard of you if you're not off the ball or in the slot. If you're small, you're getting jammed before you move by longer arms, physical guys that punch you in the chest before you take a step. HORRIBLE take. Again, that's why small guys are used in motion and out of the slot......OFF the ball 

 

So to your rationale, Julio Jones, Calvin Johnson, DK, AJ Brown, Mike Evans, are easy to jam? L ... O .... L

 

Edited April 25 by warrior9

[Buffalo_Stampede]

36 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

So Diggs was ABUSED at the line against the Chiefs..... known for his technique and route running. He's also 6 ft 1 and 200 pounds.. he's no twig. 

Easiest guys to jam are little guy off the line.. Small quick guys work out of the slot and in motion for a reason. 

 

Just because you're quick, doesn't mean you can move in a 1 yard box... . CB's line up within 1 yard of you if you're not off the ball or in the slot. If you're small, you're getting jammed before you move by longer arms, physical guys that punch you in the chest before you take a step. HORRIBLE take. Again, that's why small guys are used in motion and out of the slot......OFF the ball 

 

So to your rationale, Julio Jones, Calvin Johnson, DK, AJ Brown, Mike Evans, are easy to jam? L ... O .... L

 

Ask any CB they’ll tell you. They want the big guys over the quick shifty guys.

 

Big guys that are quick and shifty are just rare, but yeah they would be the scariest.

Edited April 25 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Buffalo716]

36 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

So Diggs was ABUSED at the line against the Chiefs..... known for his technique and route running. He's also 6 ft 1 and 200 pounds.. he's no twig. 

Easiest guys to jam are little guy off the line.. Small quick guys work out of the slot and in motion for a reason. 

 

Just because you're quick, doesn't mean you can move in a 1 yard box... . CB's line up within 1 yard of you if you're not off the ball or in the slot. If you're small, you're getting jammed before you move by longer arms, physical guys that punch you in the chest before you take a step. HORRIBLE take. Again, that's why small guys are used in motion and out of the slot......OFF the ball 

 

So to your rationale, Julio Jones, Calvin Johnson, DK, AJ Brown, Mike Evans, are easy to jam? L ... O .... L

 

Actually some of the hardest guys to ever press were Marvin Harrison and Antonio Brown... Odell Beckham was very hard to press 

 

Yet it's actually not hard to get your hands on Gabe Davis at the line of scrimmage 

 

Every wide receiver has lost a press battle before... But diggs throughout his career... Had a bevy of release moves which made it really hard to get your hands on him at the line of scrimmage... Diggs is certainly not a big wide receiver.. average for NFL standards 

 

There are a lot of release moves with a first backward step which actually won't let the defensive back get their hands on you and if they reach they will overextend and you can blow by them 

 

Don't get me wrong big guys like terell Owens can get off the press... But there are a lot of modern receivers at 6 ft tall or 6'1 who destroy press 

 

Like Justin Jefferson also

 

And I wouldn't consider those big receivers... If you're pushing 220 lb or close to basically 6'3 I consider you big 

 

Davante Adams is not super tall.. 6'1 but he is pushing 220 so I would consider him big and he's obviously a freak off press 

 

Cedee lamb is 6'2 but only 185... He's got good size but he isn't huge... And he destroys press also 

 

Lockett destroys press and he isnt big...

 

Beating press man is more of a skill then something that comes down to purely height or weight... Is Cole Beasley too small to beat an outside press from Jalen Ramsey? Yes

 

Did diggs rip up Ramsey basically every single time he has tried pressing him? Yes and he's also just average NFL wr size 

 

The top 10 of NFL wide receivers beating press last season is basically mixed between some big guys and some not big guys which shows it's more of a skill set 

 

AJ Brown , Metcalf , Adams all guys I'd put squarely in big wide receivers 

 

 

 

Then diggs , lockett , fuller and Jefferson... None 6'2 or over and none are huge 

 

 

 

Those are 7 out of the top 10 on beating press last season ... Also kupp and Hopkins... Hopkins is pushing 220 but only 6'1.. so I'm inclined to add him to the big guys although he's really not huge

 

 

 

There are some big physical freaks.. and some precise technical wide receivers

 

But Tyler lockett is 5'11 and he abuses press man

[hondo in seattle]

9 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Ask any CB they’ll tell you. They want the big guys over the small guys.

 

It depends.  Let's say you're a CB playing press coverage in a zone defense.  Jamming a smaller, quick guy is easy if you can get your hands on him.  You'll push him back and disrupt his route.  But once he gets away, he's gone - unless of course you're also very quick.  In any case, in zone you probably have a safety backing you up.  

 

And let's say you're a smallish DB going against a 6'4" receiver with good hands, a big catch radius, and speed.  And he's a talented route-runner.  He's going to be hard to defend in any defense.

 

I don't think you can say big receivers are either better or worse than small quick guys.  It depends on the receiver, defender, and the defensive play-call.  

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25 by hondo in seattle

[Buffalo716]

6 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Ask any CB they’ll tell you. They want the big guys over the quick shifty guys.

 

Big guys that are quick and shifty are just rare, but yeah they would be the scariest.

I played college corner and yeah I generally would rather go up against a Gabe Davis type than a Antonio Brown 

 

Obviously a big fast twitched athlete like Terrell Owens would give anybody hell... But it was always easy to get your hands on your typical big wr... Compared to Justin Jefferson... Who is average sized yet slick 

 

Obviously you're Julio Jones and AJ Brown's are super rare types... And the toughest

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

It depends.  Let's say you're playing press coverage in a zone defense.  Jamming a smaller, quick guy is easy if you can get your hands on him.  You'll push him back and disrupt his route.  But once he gets away, he's gone - unless of course you're also very quick.  In any case, in zone you have backup.  

 

And let's say you're a smallish DB going against a 6'4" receiver with good hands, a big catch radius, and speed.  And he's a talented route-runner.  He's going to be hard to defend in any defense.

 

I don't think you can say big receivers are either better or worse than small quick guys.  It depends on the receiver, defender, and the defensive play-call.  

 

 

 

It is always the athlete you're going up against...

 

I played college corner and have been across from every type of wide receiver... Obviously you're big strong fast athletic guy... Julio Jones, Eric moulds , Calvin Johnson , AJ Green are mismatches for anybody 

 

That is the pure prototype built in a lab 

 

But you're non freak big guy.. like Gabe Davis.. those types didn't give me much problem... Especially if you played with good technique 

 

It was the diggs or Lee Evans types... AB types... Average sized.. but so quick and athletic while running the entire route tree... That you have to be safe and cannot really Gamble 

 

Those are nightmares... I can't imagine shadowing prime Antonio Brown for 60 minutes... But on the flip nobody wants to do that to Randy Moss... Who there is no answer for

[Buffalo_Stampede]

16 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I played college corner and yeah I generally would rather go up against a Gabe Davis type than a Antonio Brown 

 

Obviously a big fast twitched athlete like Terrell Owens would give anybody hell... But it was always easy to get your hands on your typical big wr... Compared to Justin Jefferson... Who is average sized yet slick 

 

Obviously you're Julio Jones and AJ Brown's are super rare types... And the toughest

Yes. Size doesn’t mean anything unless you have all the other things to go with it. I look at size when the player has everything else. Those are generational players.

 

 

[warrior9]

26 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Ask any CB they’ll tell you. They want the big guys over the quick shifty guys.

 

Big guys that are quick and shifty are just rare, but yeah they would be the scariest.

That is patently false. 

 

21 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Actually some of the hardest guys to ever press were Marvin Harrison and Antonio Brown... Odell Beckham was very hard to press 

 

Yet it's actually not hard to get your hands on Gabe Davis at the line of scrimmage 

 

Every wide receiver has lost a press battle before... But diggs throughout his career... Had a bevy of release moves which made it really hard to get your hands on him at the line of scrimmage... Diggs is certainly not a big wide receiver.. average for NFL standards 

 

There are a lot of release moves with a first backward step which actually won't let the defensive back get their hands on you and if they reach they will overextend and you can blow by them 

 

Don't get me wrong big guys like terell Owens can get off the press... But there are a lot of modern receivers at 6 ft tall or 6'1 who destroy press 

 

Like Justin Jefferson also

 

And I wouldn't consider those big receivers... If you're pushing 220 lb or close to basically 6'3 I consider you big 

 

Davante Adams is not super tall.. 6'1 but he is pushing 220 so I would consider him big and he's obviously a freak off press 

 

Cedee lamb is 6'2 but only 185... He's got good size but he isn't huge... And he destroys press also 

 

Lockett destroys press and he isnt big...

 

Beating press man is more of a skill then something that comes down to purely height or weight... Is Cole Beasley too small to beat an outside press from Jalen Ramsey? Yes

 

Did diggs rip up Ramsey basically every single time he has tried pressing him? Yes and he's also just average NFL wr size 

 

The top 10 of NFL wide receivers beating press last season is basically mixed between some big guys and some not big guys which shows it's more of a skill set 

 

AJ Brown , Metcalf , Adams all guys I'd put squarely in big wide receivers 

 

 

 

Then diggs , lockett , fuller and Jefferson... None 6'2 or over and none are huge 

 

 

 

Those are 7 out of the top 10 on beating press last season ... Also kupp and Hopkins... Hopkins is pushing 220 but only 6'1.. so I'm inclined to add him to the big guys although he's really not huge

 

 

 

There are some big physical freaks.. and some precise technical wide receivers

 

But Tyler lockett is 5'11 and he abuses press man

Again, just because your big or just because you're quick does NOT mean you are better/ worse at getting off the line. 

 

His sentiment was, smaller guys are harder to press at the line and it's just false. You named a few. Diggs could NOT get off the line last year. Lockett (plays slot a lot), AB, and Marvin Harrison are three of the best EVER at beating man coverage. So you pick some of the best ever as an average? Jefferson is 205 pounds... thats not a small dude IN ANY CAPACITY ... 

 

His sentiment is false. You beat people off the line by being able to move in a phone booth very quickly and having leverage and strength..

21 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I played college corner and yeah I generally would rather go up against a Gabe Davis type than a Antonio Brown 

 

Obviously a big fast twitched athlete like Terrell Owens would give anybody hell... But it was always easy to get your hands on your typical big wr... Compared to Justin Jefferson... Who is average sized yet slick 

 

Obviously you're Julio Jones and AJ Brown's are super rare types... And the toughest

Brother... you are comparing one of the best route runners ever to a blocking WR..... 

 

Now do AB vs Julio.... 

2 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Yes. Size doesn’t mean anything unless you have all the other things to go with it. I look at size when the player has everything else. Those are generational players.

 

 

We are not talking about generational players.. no generational player is easy to jam off the line. He compared AB to Gabe LOL.... 

 

If you are looking at the average WR, there is an OBVIOUS reason why small / quick guys play the slot.... its because *gasp* they have room to make a move off the line because they can't get jammed.

 

Why doesnt AJ Brown play in the slot? OHHH because he can beat man coverage off the ball. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Just now, warrior9 said:

That is patently false. 

 

Again, just because your big or just because you're quick does NOT mean you are better/ worse at getting off the line. 

 

His sentiment was, smaller guys are harder to press at the line and it's just false. You named a few. Diggs could NOT get off the line last year. Lockett (plays slot a lot), AB, and Marvin Harrison are three of the best EVER at beating man coverage. So you pick some of the best ever as an average? Jefferson is 205 pounds... thats not a small dude IN ANY CAPACITY ... 

 

His sentiment is false. You beat people off the line by being able to move in a phone booth very quickly and having leverage and strength..

You keep saying Diggs couldn’t get off the line last year. Honestly I didn’t watch all his releases last year. But if you’re trying to argue against adding a young Diggs because he’s small then I don’t know what to tell you. I would love to draft the next Diggs.

[warrior9]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

You keep saying Diggs couldn’t get off the line last year. Honestly I didn’t watch all his releases last year. But if you’re trying to argue against adding a young Diggs because he’s small then I don’t know what to tell you. I would love to draft the next Diggs.

I keep saying Diggs couldn't get off the line to the other poster who used Diggs as an example of a WR good against man... and he simply wasn't last few years. 

 

I never said that i'm against drafting the next Diggs... at all? Diggs is 6'1 200 something pounds. 

 

I'm talking purely football on the field. Small WR's do not have an advantage at getting off the line as this guy suggested. There is literally a position for small receivers to move freely and be off the ball.... for a reason. There is a reason Kupp and Edelmen, and all of the small quick guys play in the slot...... it's because they can't get off the ball. 

Edited April 25 by warrior9

[Buffalo_Stampede]

4 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

 

If you are looking at the average WR, there is an OBVIOUS reason why small / quick guys play the slot.... its because *gasp* they have room to make a move off the line because they can't get jammed.

 

Why doesnt AJ Brown play in the slot? OHHH because he can beat man coverage off the ball. 

If you’re smallish you’re likely going to be a Z. Z WRs are outside off the ball. They have room. Diggs was our Z the last couple years. Gabe Davis was our X. But NFL offense is different today. There’s a lot of was to open up WRs. Plus defenses are also different. Less man, more zone. Especially vs Josh Allen. Teams don’t play much man vs us.

[warrior9]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

If you’re smallish you’re likely going to be a Z. Z WRs are outside off the ball. They have room. Diggs was our Z the last couple years. Gabe Davis was our X. But NFL offense is different today. There’s a lot of was to open up WRs. Plus defenses are also different. Less man, more zone. Especially vs Josh Allen. Teams don’t play much man vs us.

Did.... you uhh.. did you watch the Chiefs game? 

 

And Z WR's are not just outside "off the ball"........................? YIKES

Edited April 25 by warrior9

[Buffalo_Stampede]

3 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

I keep saying Diggs couldn't get off the line to the other poster who used Diggs as an example of a WR good against man... and he simply wasn't last few years. 

 

I never said that i'm against drafting the next Diggs... at all? Diggs is 6'1 200 something pounds. 

 

I'm talking purely football on the field. Small WR's do not have an advantage at getting off the line as this guy suggested. There is literally a position for small receivers to move freely and be off the ball.... for a reason. There is a reason Kupp and Edelmen, and all of the small quick guys play in the slot...... it's because they can't get off the ball. 

It’s a different game now. For one thing teams around the league don’t have the personnel to play that physical press style.

 

It’s why we see smaller WRs have success today.

1 minute ago, warrior9 said:

Did.... you uhh.. did you watch the Chiefs game? 

 

And Z WR's are not just outside "off the ball"........................? YIKES

Yes, Z WRs are off the line of scrimmage.

[Buffalo716]

13 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

That is patently false. 

 

Again, just because your big or just because you're quick does NOT mean you are better/ worse at getting off the line. 

 

His sentiment was, smaller guys are harder to press at the line and it's just false. You named a few. Diggs could NOT get off the line last year. Lockett (plays slot a lot), AB, and Marvin Harrison are three of the best EVER at beating man coverage. So you pick some of the best ever as an average? Jefferson is 205 pounds... thats not a small dude IN ANY CAPACITY ... 

 

His sentiment is false. You beat people off the line by being able to move in a phone booth very quickly and having leverage and strength..

Brother... you are comparing one of the best route runners ever to a blocking WR..... 

 

Now do AB vs Julio.... 

We are not talking about generational players.. no generational player is easy to jam off the line. He compared AB to Gabe LOL.... 

 

If you are looking at the average WR, there is an OBVIOUS reason why small / quick guys play the slot.... its because *gasp* they have room to make a move off the line because they can't get jammed.

 

Why doesnt AJ Brown play in the slot? OHHH because he can beat man coverage off the ball. 

Diggs was statistically in the top seven for all NFL wide receivers beating press last year 

 

Had over an 85% success rate 

 

He certainly did not get abused All season by press man

 

And yes my point was it is a skill set... Bigger guys with the skill set have an easier time of getting off the line of scrimmage but if they don't have that skill set it doesn't matter 

 

While a small guy like Tyler lockett with the skill set abuses press man

 

Of course everybody wants AJ Brown on the outside

 

And I'm using Gabe Davis as an example because he just got 15 million dollars a year... And he is a starting wide receiver in the NFL currently 

 

There are a lot more Gabe Davis type guys then Terrell Owens.... So your average big receiver is like Gabe Davis not AJ Brown... And he is not a top 15 guy beating press

 

I never once said Gabe Davis was anything spectacular... He's your typical big receiver... And Tyler lockett is much better being press than him

 

Tyler lockett is also good but nobody ever says he's a top 10 guy

 

Edited April 25 by Buffalo716

[Buffalo_Stampede]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Diggs was statistically in the top seven for all NFL wide receivers beating press last year 

 

Had over an 85% success rate 

 

He certainly did not get abused All season by press man

 

And yes my point was it is a skill set... Bigger guys with the skill set have an easier time of getting off the line of scrimmage but if they don't have that skill set it doesn't matter 

 

While a small guy like Tyler lockett with the skill set abuses press man

 

Of course everybody wants AJ Brown on the outside

 

 

Yes. Releases are a skill. Anyone worried about size is drafting James Hardy. 

[warrior9]

7 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Diggs was statistically in the top seven for all NFL wide receivers beating press last year 

 

Had over an 85% success rate 

 

He certainly did not get abused All season by press man

 

And yes my point was it is a skill set... Bigger guys with the skill set have an easier time of getting off the line of scrimmage but if they don't have that skill set it doesn't matter 

 

While a small guy like Tyler lockett with the skill set abuses press man

 

Of course everybody wants AJ Brown on the outside

 

 

Where did you see the bolded? 

 

We are agreeing on the italicized.. It is not about size. You have to move in a phone booth

 

Diggs ran 168 routes against Man last year and had 26 catches... thats top 7 in the NFL? 

Edited April 25 by warrior9

[Buffalo716]

4 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

Where did you see the bolded? 

 

We are agreeing on the italicized.. It is not about size. You have to move in a phone booth

There are a lot of advanced statistical sites 

 

PFF did wide receiver success rate off of pressman coverage... Quarterback rating to... Average depth of release... Average depth of route 

 

And diggs was top 7 2024... Actually finished 4th 

 

Had over 80 of his hundred catches on press man... With a 90 grade

 

Now obviously grades are flexible... But you either beat man coverage or you can't separate... And by the advanced numbers he was still abusing it

 

He struggled actually catching the ball sometimes

Edited April 25 by Buffalo716

[warrior9]

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

There are a lot of advanced statistical sites 

 

PFF did wide receiver success rate off of pressman coverage... Quarterback rating to... Average depth of release... Average depth of route 

 

And diggs was top 7 2024

168 routes and 26 catches does not seem the best to me.......... 

[GASabresIUFan]

Combine Numbers

Diggs - 6' 195, 4.46 40, 1.53 10 yard split, 35" vertical - Athleticism score 69

Davis - 6'2" 216, 4.54 40, 1.56 10 yard split, 35" vertical - Athleticism score 63

 

Shakir - 6' 196, 4.43 40, 1.49 10 yard split, 34.5" vertical - Athleticism score 78

Samuel - 5'11" 196, 4.31 40, 1.49 10 yard split, 37" vertical - Athleticism score 89

Hollins - 6'4" 221, 4.53 40, 1.59 10 yard split, (no vertical) - Athleticism score 69

Shorter - 6'4 229, 4.55 40, 1.59 10 yard split, 35.5 vertical -Athleticism score 58

 

Thomas - 6'3" 209, 4.33 40, 1.5 10 yard split, 38.5 vertical - Athleticism score 92

Mitchell - 6'2" 205, 4.34 40, 1.52 10 yard split, 39.5 vertical - Athleticism score 91

Worthy - 6'2" 185, 4.21 40, 1.49 10 yard split, 41 vertical - Athleticism score 98

McConkey - 6' 186, 4.39, 1.52 10 yard split, 36 vertical - Athleticism score 90

Walker - 6'1.5". 4.36 40, 1.54 10 yard split, 40.5 vertical - Athleticism score 86

 

The Bottom line is that we have no receiver on the roster anywhere close to the combo of size and athleticism of the guys in this draft.  We have guys with size and guys with speed, but nothing like what we are going to get early in this draft.

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

168 routes and 26 catches does not seem the best to me.......... 

PFF says 87 of his 107 catches were off of press man

 

90 grade .. 4th overall 

Edited April 25 by Buffalo716

[warrior9]

Just now, Buffalo716 said:

PFF says 87 of his 107 catches were off of press man

https://www.pff.com/news/fantasy-football-wr-report-man-zone-coverage-performance-nfl-week-17-2023#BUF

 

This is going in to Week 17 of last year... obv it's for fantasy stuff but they have his routes and catches last year... Please share your link.

3 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

PFF says 87 of his 107 catches were off of press man

Here's more to rebut your claim. 

[Buffalo716]

5 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

https://www.pff.com/news/fantasy-football-wr-report-man-zone-coverage-performance-nfl-week-17-2023#BUF

 

This is going in to Week 17 of last year... obv it's for fantasy stuff but they have his routes and catches last year... Please share your link.

Here's more to rebut your claim. 

Well I just looked back at the article I used was for the 2022 season dated this year for some reason 

 

So you are correct in that part.. I cannot find an entire 2023 data set

 

But diggs was also elite versus press for the majority of his career here... He also went on the injury report for a back injury last season and never look the same 

 

The point stands that beating pressman is a skill set.. you can be 5'11 with the skill set and abuse it or 6 ft 3 with the skill set and abuse it 

 

But if you're just 6 ft 3 220 lb with nothing else.. you're just James Hardie and you're not beating the press

Edited April 25 by Buffalo716

[warrior9]

Just now, Buffalo716 said:

Well I just looked back and the off article I used was for the 2022 season dated this year for some reason 

 

So you are correct in that part 

 

But diggs was also elite versus press for the majority of his career here... He also went on the injury report for a back injury last season and never look the same 

 

The point stands that beating pressman is a skill set.. you can be 5'11 with the skill set and abuse it or 6 ft 3 with the skill set and abuse it 

 

But if you're just 6 ft 3 220 lb with nothing else.. you're just James Hardie and you're not beating the press

Italicized: I am not disputing that. He was great. Until he played the Chiefs, Sneed just OWNED him man... unfortunately. 

 

And I agree. However, we need a bigger body IMO (which is why im SO against Worthy for this team..i don't dislike worthy, i dislike him for this team in it's current state) to win off the line and make contested catches. It's been a lot time since we've had a WR make contested catches regularly (outside of Diggs 2 years ago). 

[Buffalo716]

4 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

Italicized: I am not disputing that. He was great. Until he played the Chiefs, Sneed just OWNED him man... unfortunately. 

 

And I agree. However, we need a bigger body IMO (which is why im SO against Worthy for this team..i don't dislike worthy, i dislike him for this team in it's current state) to win off the line and make contested catches. It's been a lot time since we've had a WR make contested catches regularly (outside of Diggs 2 years ago). 

Don't get me wrong I agree 

 

I want a big physical guy... Who has the skill set to dominate press man

 

If you give me two equal football players.. 100% the same skill set... And one is 5'11 195

 

And one is 6'3 223 ... Give me the big dude all day everyday and twice in Sundays 

 

I want a guy who will come down with a tough catch

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

So got it from PFF basically?

That one was but for some reason it was marked 2023 season but it was from the 2022 season 

 

So the numbers I used were from two seasons ago 

 

I cannot find 2023 numbers... And unless I watch every snap to see how many times he was pressed and how he beat it... I can't give a real assessment other than he's always been good at beating press 

 

So I doubt he just became horrible even if he regressed

Edited April 25 by Buffalo716

[Beck Water]

7 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

Italicized: I am not disputing that. He was great. Until he played the Chiefs, Sneed just OWNED him man... unfortunately. 

 

And I agree. However, we need a bigger body IMO (which is why im SO against Worthy for this team..i don't dislike worthy, i dislike him for this team in it's current state) to win off the line and make contested catches. It's been a lot time since we've had a WR make contested catches regularly (outside of Diggs 2 years ago). 

 

Actually.....I read somewhere (and if you ask me for a link, answer is "I don't got it") the Bills faced one of the highest % of man coverage last season because Diggs for whatever reason was having uncharacteristic problems getting a clean release off press man and beating physical man coverage downfield, as he did in previous years, and that link you shared from PFF illustrates why....absolutely no one else on the team was beating it - not Harty, not Shakir, not Sherfield, not Davis

 

vs 2020 and 2021 where IIRC we had one of the lowest rates of man coverage because our receivers would kill it and Josh would carve it up.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Just now, Beck Water said:

 

Actually.....I read somewhere (and if you ask me for a link, answer is "I don't got it") the Bills faced one of the highest % of man coverage last season because Diggs for whatever reason was having uncharacteristic problems getting a clean release off press man and beating physical man coverage downfield, as he did in previous years, and that link you shared from PFF illustrates why....absolutely no one else on the team was beating it - not Harty, not Shakir, not Sherfield, not Davis

 

vs 2020 and 2021 where IIRC we had one of the lowest rates of man coverage because our receivers would kill it and Josh would carve it up.

I would love to see that data. 

[warrior9]

Just now, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I would love to see that data. 

I shared a link that has his routes ran and catches against man... actually, the whole NFL. 

[Beck Water]

9 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Don't get me wrong I agree 

 

I want a big physical guy... Who has the skill set to dominate press man

 

If you give me two equal football players.. 100% the same skill set... And one is 5'11 195

 

And one is 6'3 223 ... Give me the big dude all day everyday and twice in Sundays 

 

I want a guy who will come down with a tough catch

That one was but for some reason it was marked 2023 season but it was from the 2022 season 

 

So the numbers I used were from two seasons ago 

 

I cannot find 2023 numbers... And unless I watch every snap to see how many times he was pressed and how he beat it... I can't give a real assessment other than he's always been good at beating press 

 

So I doubt he just became horrible even if he regressed

 

Well, we've talked before, you know I acknowledge that when it comes to watching broadcast film I have "slow eyes" and need all-22 and a couple watchings to know what I'm seeing....but to my eyes, we had real problems beating man coverage last season and that includes Diggs, at least in the 2nd half of the season.

 

It wasn't always press, in that JT O'Sullivan QB School youtube vid on the division game vs KC you can see routes where Snead just sat back and waited for Diggs route to bring him to him, basically - he must have felt pretty confident he understood what route concepts were going to be run from different sets and cues.

[warrior9]

11 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Don't get me wrong I agree 

 

I want a big physical guy... Who has the skill set to dominate press man

 

If you give me two equal football players.. 100% the same skill set... And one is 5'11 195

 

And one is 6'3 223 ... Give me the big dude all day everyday and twice in Sundays 

 

I want a guy who will come down with a tough catch

That one was but for some reason it was marked 2023 season but it was from the 2022 season 

 

So the numbers I used were from two seasons ago 

 

I cannot find 2023 numbers... And unless I watch every snap to see how many times he was pressed and how he beat it... I can't give a real assessment other than he's always been good at beating press 

 

So I doubt he just became horrible even if he regressed

YES! This is all I'm saying about small guys and Worthy (especially in the first round).. DUDE give me Coleman over Worthy ALLL fkin day. Id rather have him than the Chiefs have him. 

 

Puka was a late pick, ran slow for 40 but was fastest in the drill where you run in a straight line, turn your head, catch passes(think they call it the gauntlet). Coleman was fastest through that at combine this year. Plays a lot faster than his straight line speed. He can make contest catches, he's a tough SOB. 

2 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Well, we've talked before, you know I acknowledge that when it comes to watching broadcast film I have "slow eyes" and need all-22 and a couple watchings to know what I'm seeing....but to my eyes, we had real problems beating man coverage last season and that includes Diggs, at least in the 2nd half of the season.

 

It wasn't always press, in that JT O'Sullivan QB School youtube vid on the division game vs KC you can see routes where Snead just sat back and waited for Diggs route to bring him to him, basically - he must have felt pretty confident he understood what route concepts were going to be run from different sets and cues.

Unfortunately for the Bills, Snead plays for KC or we'd have 1 or 2 championships. Snead just abuuuuused Diggs man. It was very hard to watch. 

[Beck Water]

8 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I would love to see that data. 

 

I would love to find the source, too, I have a pretty decent memory so I believe I read it - actually it may have been in a Cover1 video - but I've been rummaging around and no can find.  Lots of stuff on which Ds play the most man by down and etc.

I don't subscribe to any of the stat services though, so maybe someone here who does could find it.
 

5 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

Unfortunately for the Bills, Snead plays for KC or we'd have 1 or 2 championships. Snead just abuuuuused Diggs man. It was very hard to watch. 

 

Well, he's on to the Titans now.

Edited April 25 by Beck Water

[warrior9]

2 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I would love to find the source, too, I have a pretty decent memory so I believe I read it but I've been rummaging around and no can find.  Lots of stuff on which Ds play the most man by down and etc.

 

Well, he's on to the Titans now.

Right right, sorry. Played* 

 

Wish that was the case 3 years ago lol

[Beck Water]

33 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

PFF says 87 of his 107 catches were off of press man

 

90 grade .. 4th overall 

 

So clarifying, that was for 2022, not 2023?

[Mikey152]

We are way off topic, now...

 

This started off as a post about why we don't need a traditional X receiver because we will run a lot of 12 personnel, so it will be harder to press our skill players.

 

Now we are talking about how bad we were against man coverage...and the Chiefs get brought up a lot. Go back and watch the Chiefs game...the Chiefs corners were mostly lining up off the ball and being aggressive with the route stem (often beyond 5 yards, but I digress). I only really saw press man when Diggs was playing on the LOS (no Davis and 3 or 4 WR sets).

 

Do we need man beaters? sure. But you don't have to be big to beat man coverage...you have to be athletic. We weren't too small last year, we were too SLLLOOOOWWWW. And the guys that were fast (Im looking at you, Harty) were trash.

 

 

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

So clarifying, that was for 2022, not 2023?

Yes but for some reason it made it look like it was from this past season