Over 29 years of fanhood Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 (edited) https://apnews.com/article/e3c045ece4d0e0eae393a18a09a4a37e “The goal here is restoration. Where would we as a people be if it were not for 246 years of stolen labor and accompanying horrors, if not for the multiple periods of multibillion-dollar plunder post-enslavement?” Howard said. “We must be made whole.” in thinking about this I could support this sort of wealth transfer provided the money comes from those who are decedents from the evil side of it. It would also have to somehow be confirmed as a means to end systemic oppression. Edited February 18, 2021 by Over 29 years of fanhood 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 (edited) Idealistic, but impractical idea. Where does it begin, where does it stop? Whose ancestry does not have some kind of systemic stolen labor and horror. Chinese on railroads, Irish chained to factory machines, religious and ethnic cleansing in Europe, and of course slave labor too. I think it is important to acknowledge, recognize, learn, and grow from the past, but reparations assume some kind of current day responsible role in a historical tragedy. That is a bridge too far IMO. Picking at the scabs of historical wounds is likely the best way to ensure they will never heal. Perhaps the price paid in blood over the course of a civil war should be sufficient to allow the nation to move forward. Not convinced that such an effort does more good than harm. Edited February 18, 2021 by WideNine 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted February 18, 2021 Author Share Posted February 18, 2021 1 minute ago, WideNine said: Idealistic, but impractical idea. Where does it begin, where does it stop? Whose ancestry does not have some kind of systemic stolen labor and horror. Chinese on railroads, Irish chained to factory machines, religious and ethnic cleansingin Europe, and of course slave labor too. I think it is important to acknowledge, recognize, learn, and grow from the past, but reparations assume some kind of current day responsible role in a historical tragedy. That is a bridge too far IMO. Picking at the scabs of wounds ensures they will never heal. My children are actually direct decedents from these two (Irish chained to factory machines, religious and ethnic cleansingin Europe; one branch from each side) but they would now be classified as privileged so I don’t think any of those categories are relevant. unfortunately your response is sort of like saying all lives matter in response to BLM. the concept I grew up with of inclusion and blindness apparently has been judged to not be working. It’s crazy how the r word used to be used so carefully and now it’s a constant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 1 minute ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: My children are actually direct decedents from these two (Irish chained to factory machines, religious and ethnic cleansingin Europe; one branch from each side) but they would now be classified as privileged so I don’t think any of those categories are relevant. unfortunately your response is sort of like saying all lives matter in response to BLM. the concept I grew up with of inclusion and blindness apparently has been judged to not be working. It’s crazy how the r word used to be used so carefully and now it’s a constant. Not really. I think my response is balanced. To me, I think the cost of lives lost in this nation's civil war has to be weighed in the equation of reparation. I do not see a good reason why it would not be. If you can prove that a check cut by the Government brings final closure to the matter and that I would never again have the historical wrongs foisted upon me and my family's relatively brief history on this planet, then sign me up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted February 18, 2021 Author Share Posted February 18, 2021 7 minutes ago, WideNine said: Not really. I think my response is balanced. To me, I think the cost of lives lost in this nation's civil war has to be weighed in the equation of reparation. I do not see a good reason why it would not be. If you can prove that a check cut by the Government brings final closure to the matter and that I would never again have the historical wrongs foisted upon me and my family's relatively brief history on this planet, then sign me up. I agree with the benefit closure would bring. Since cut by the government means it would need to come from somewhere, I suggest it should come from those descendants whom by the same logic implies must have financially benefitted. the total costs I’ve seen in a brief look are around 10 trillion. Bankrupting wealthy estates built upon a legacy of oppression seems like a just outcome as I think about it especially to your point of closure is reached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 (edited) Be tough to prove direct benefit. That southern aristocracy was fairly decimated by the war, not that their system was sustainable. The advent of machine harvesting was just around the corner making manual labor unprofitable. Interesting alternate history to consider as a thought exercise. It is just my opinion, but history is filled with failed reparation attempts ie: Liberia. I have seen success stories around reparations, but those have had the benefit of smaller scale, and legitimate traceability such as property belonging to Jewish families stolen by Nazi's returned to families. Even such small scale attempts at reparations are not free of controversy or opposition. https://www.politico.com/news/2021/02/03/heirs-to-jewish-art-dealers-lose-fight-at-supreme-court-465483 https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-holocaust-survivor-who-spent-decades-fighting-for-familys-looted-art-dies/ https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/aug/29/dina-gold-family-property-nazi-berlin-stolen-legacy-krausenstrasse Edited February 19, 2021 by WideNine 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US Egg Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 1 hour ago, WideNine said: Idealistic, but impractical idea. Where does it begin, where does it stop? Whose ancestry does not have some kind of systemic stolen labor and horror. Chinese on railroads, Irish chained to factory machines, religious and ethnic cleansing in Europe, and of course slave labor too. I think it is important to acknowledge, recognize, learn, and grow from the past, but reparations assume some kind of current day responsible role in a historical tragedy. That is a bridge too far IMO. Picking at the scabs of historical wounds is likely the best way to ensure they will never heal. Perhaps the price paid in blood over the course of a civil war should be sufficient to allow the nation to move forward. Not convinced that such an effort does more good than harm. Reasonable take. One of the people that was instrumental in my growth as a professional and I were speaking about this many years ago, and I surprised when he said it offended him when someone referred to him as African-American. When I asked why, he said because his family ties went through the Caribbean. “I’m not African.”. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpberr Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 It'll be a 3.9 year study. If re-elected, an 8.1 year study. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Tim Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 11 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: https://apnews.com/article/e3c045ece4d0e0eae393a18a09a4a37e “The goal here is restoration. Where would we as a people be if it were not for 246 years of stolen labor and accompanying horrors, if not for the multiple periods of multibillion-dollar plunder post-enslavement?” Howard said. “We must be made whole.” in thinking about this I could support this sort of wealth transfer provided the money comes from those who are decedents from the evil side of it. It would also have to somehow be confirmed as a means to end systemic oppression. So many problems pinning the evil of a great great grandfather on a person today. I don't blame the English for oppressing my ancestors and what do we do about children of slave owner and slave? The only way you can properly help the descendants of slave is give them a proper education and chance to succeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted February 18, 2021 Author Share Posted February 18, 2021 1 hour ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: Reasonable take. One of the people that was instrumental in my growth as a professional and I were speaking about this many years ago, and I surprised when he said it offended him when someone referred to him as African-American. When I asked why, he said because his family ties went through the Caribbean. “I’m not African.”. i love that. Same thing happened with a phenomenal member of my team at work. “I’m Panamanian” she would say, and she’ll likely be my boss someday soon because she works hard and is brilliant, rising star. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 3 hours ago, WideNine said: Idealistic, but impractical idea. Where does it begin, where does it stop? Whose ancestry does not have some kind of systemic stolen labor and horror. Chinese on railroads, Irish chained to factory machines, religious and ethnic cleansing in Europe, and of course slave labor too. I think it is important to acknowledge, recognize, learn, and grow from the past, but reparations assume some kind of current day responsible role in a historical tragedy. That is a bridge too far IMO. Picking at the scabs of historical wounds is likely the best way to ensure they will never heal. Perhaps the price paid in blood over the course of a civil war should be sufficient to allow the nation to move forward. Not convinced that such an effort does more good than harm. In principal I tend to support the idea. But I'm not really sure why a study is needed. Most likely the committee will be packed with like-minded individuals already concluding reparations are necessary and a good idea. I doubt a single voice expressing any reservations or concerns about the proposal will be heard. So with the outcome never in doubt the only reason to assemble a committee is to provide "cover" for politicians so they can say it wasn't their decision but rather that of a group of "experts" on the subject. So their recommendations need to be accepted and the country needs to move forward with the committee's recommendations. Plausible deniability in case something goes wrong one way or the other. As a skeptic I expect the most likely outcome of the government enacting the program that pays out several trillion dollars in reparations is noting much changes. After a historic spending spree by recipients of the payouts almost everyone is back at the starting line with the exception of the most industrious of the recipients that use the funds for endeavors like starting a business or pursuing higher education goals. There could be a lot of social benefit all around for targeting monies to productive outcomes like these and not some consumer buying binge. So in the end almost everyone will be no better off and they'll come back to the wishing well demanding additional handouts for perpetuity. Along with this the parties behind the "end systemic racism" movement will never admit that the goal has been achieved. Even if I am wrong and it all works out great. Never. Because achieving the goal will mean the battle has been won and therefore there is no legitimate reason for the group to continue to exist. So the group will disband and surrender all the power and influence they have built up and acquired over the course of time and call it mission accomplished? Yeah right. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 (edited) On 2/18/2021 at 10:13 AM, All_Pro_Bills said: In principal I tend to support the idea. But I'm not really sure why a study is needed. Most likely the committee will be packed with like-minded individuals already concluding reparations are necessary and a good idea. I doubt a single voice expressing any reservations or concerns about the proposal will be heard. So with the outcome never in doubt the only reason to assemble a committee is to provide "cover" for politicians so they can say it wasn't their decision but rather that of a group of "experts" on the subject. So their recommendations need to be accepted and the country needs to move forward with the committee's recommendations. Plausible deniability in case something goes wrong one way or the other. As a skeptic I expect the most likely outcome of the government enacting the program that pays out several trillion dollars in reparations is noting much changes. After a historic spending spree by recipients of the payouts almost everyone is back at the starting line with the exception of the most industrious of the recipients that use the funds for endeavors like starting a business or pursuing higher education goals. There could be a lot of social benefit all around for targeting monies to productive outcomes like these and not some consumer buying binge. So in the end almost everyone will be no better off and they'll come back to the wishing well demanding additional handouts for perpetuity. Along with this the parties behind the "end systemic racism" movement will never admit that the goal has been achieved. Even if I am wrong and it all works out great. Never. Because achieving the goal will mean the battle has been won and therefore there is no legitimate reason for the group to continue to exist. So the group will disband and surrender all the power and influence they have built up and acquired over the course of time and call it mission accomplished? Yeah right. Often missing elements in many Democrat policies when they throw tax dollars at societal challenges like magic pixie dust. "Is this needed and justified?" "What is the intended result and strategic benefit - what problem does this solve or how does this effort invest in our nation's future?" "Will this action meet that goal (prescriptive)?" "How will successful implementation be measured to ensure fiscal and managerial accountability to U.S. taxpayers?" While Republicans on the other hand give little thought to yanking dollars away from needed social programs in the name of sound fiscal policy. They rarely consider a plan "B" for the downstream issues created and soft dollars lost by the actions. We need better leadership and governance from both sides of the aisle that can provide us with realistic, prescriptive, and strategic solutions to real issues that are measurable and accountable and do not lose sight of being respectful, and humane. Not easy, but probably shouldn't be considering the complexity of running a nation like ours. Edited February 19, 2021 by WideNine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unforgiven Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 facepalm.. this why they need reparations joe? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Good thing they got rid of the racist President... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, dpberr said: It'll be a 3.9 year study. If re-elected, an 8.1 year study. Na....Biden is one and done. Most everyone that voted for him knew that given his age. My main intrigue out of his whole tenure is whether he makes a move to cede some Presidential powers back to Congress and the States before riding off into the geriatric sunset. Presidential powers have grown to monarchical levels the past few decades and rule by Presidential fiat is rife with polarizing problems and just causes national policy to swing wildly from pole to pole. We will see. https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/11/10/biden-could-wind-down-the-imperial-presidency-435640 Edited February 19, 2021 by WideNine 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 I'm more than happy to pitch in two dollars if they would just shut the heck up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Tim Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 2 hours ago, WideNine said: Na....Biden is one and done. Most everyone that voted for him knew that given his age. My main intrigue out of his whole tenure for me is whether he makes a move to cede some Presidential powers back to Congress and the States before riding off into the geriatric sunset. Presidential powers have grown to monarchical levels the past few decades and rule by Presidential fiat is rife with polarizing problems and just causes national policy to swing wildly from pole to pole. We will see. https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/11/10/biden-could-wind-down-the-imperial-presidency-435640 Since I like to argue with you I must give you credit on a very good point- the last 3 presidents have been allowed to pass far too much through executive order. I will admit that when Bush did it I was not bothered since I did not think the next president would be allowed to ramp it up even further. I was truly surprised when so many members of the house gave away their power 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T master Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 Reparation might be a good thing but it would be never ending generations from now they could claim to be in the same place as their parents or grand parents were and they would want their cut I don't see how this would make anything better in the long run . Not to mention shouldn't those that sold the slaves have a responsibility in this not just America & the companies that abused those that came here ? Instead of living in the past learn from it and show what can be achieved by hard work and put those in what ever race that have succeeded in the spot light to show that no matter what you can make it in America with a lot of hard work & making good choices even though the avenues may not be as open for one as they are for another . This man is brilliant and one of if not my favorite person on the planet !! His wisdom is unbelievable . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted February 19, 2021 Author Share Posted February 19, 2021 2 hours ago, T master said: Reparation might be a good thing but it would be never ending generations from now they could claim to be in the same place as their parents or grand parents were and they would want their cut I don't see how this would make anything better in the long run . Not to mention shouldn't those that sold the slaves have a responsibility in this not just America & the companies that abused those that came here ? Instead of living in the past learn from it and show what can be achieved by hard work and put those in what ever race that have succeeded in the spot light to show that no matter what you can make it in America with a lot of hard work & making good choices even though the avenues may not be as open for one as they are for another . This man is brilliant and one of if not my favorite person on the planet !! His wisdom is unbelievable . DW really does deliver some awesome sound bytes. Great actor, director, performer speaker... devout husband and father, strong morals, kids all have gone on to their own impressive achievements... I need to drill some of messages into my kids head. Awesome stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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