BillStime Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 23 minutes ago, Doc said: Still pushing this lie? Did Experts and Officials Warn in 2018 US Couldn't Respond Effectively to a Pandemic? If Trump was indeed so prepared, why was he persistently blaming everyone but himself for the lack of readiness? Trump blames Obama for lack of coronavirus tests: ‘I don’t take responsibility at all’ Everyone and everything Trump has blamed for his coronavirus response Donald Trump blames everyone but himself for the coronavirus crisis. On coronavirus, Trump congratulates himself and blames others How Trump blames hospitals and others on front lines for covid-19 failures Trump blames states as he faces criticism for slow Covid vaccine rollout Report: Donald Trump Is Blaming Everyone but Himself for the Midterms. And, Yes, That Includes Melania Fact check: President Trump’s repeated false statements on coronavirus — underplaying severity, rewriting history, blaming others You remind us every day that you are NOT a doctor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 3 hours ago, BillStime said: Did Experts and Officials Warn in 2018 US Couldn't Respond Effectively to a Pandemic? If Trump was indeed so prepared, why was he persistently blaming everyone but himself for the lack of readiness? Trump blames Obama for lack of coronavirus tests: ‘I don’t take responsibility at all’ Everyone and everything Trump has blamed for his coronavirus response Donald Trump blames everyone but himself for the coronavirus crisis. On coronavirus, Trump congratulates himself and blames others How Trump blames hospitals and others on front lines for covid-19 failures Trump blames states as he faces criticism for slow Covid vaccine rollout Report: Donald Trump Is Blaming Everyone but Himself for the Midterms. And, Yes, That Includes Melania Fact check: President Trump’s repeated false statements on coronavirus — underplaying severity, rewriting history, blaming others You remind us every day that you are NOT a doctor. Biden hasn't taken blame for not only not shutting down Wuhan virus like he promised (from his basement) but doing a terrible job by having 600K deaths under his watch despite vaccines and treatments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 30 minutes ago, Doc said: Biden hasn't taken blame for not only not shutting down Wuhan virus like he promised (from his basement) but doing a terrible job by having 600K deaths under his watch despite vaccines and treatments. Oh - the “Doc” wants to rehash this AGAIN? lmao People in Republican Counties Have Higher Death Rates Than Those in Democratic Counties A growing mortality gap between Republican and Democratic areas may largely stem from policy choices Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 9 hours ago, BillStime said: Oh - the “Doc” wants to rehash this AGAIN? lmao People in Republican Counties Have Higher Death Rates Than Those in Democratic Counties A growing mortality gap between Republican and Democratic areas may largely stem from policy choices Great link. It talks about pre-Wuhan virus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 2 hours ago, Doc said: Great link. It talks about pre-Wuhan virus. You wish. During the COVID-19 pandemic, the link between politics and health became glaringly obvious. Democrat-leaning “blue” states were more likely to enact mask requirements and vaccine and social distancing mandates. Republican-leaning “red” states were much more resistant to health measures. The consequences of those differences emerged by the end of 2020, when rates of hospitalization and death from COVID rose in conservative counties and dropped in liberal ones. That divergence continued through 2021, when vaccines became widely available. And although the highly transmissible Omicron variant narrowed the gap in infection rates, hospitalization and death rates, which are dramatically reduced by vaccines, remain higher in Republican-leaning parts of the country. But we have already discussed this a number of times.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokebball Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 15 minutes ago, BillStime said: You wish. During the COVID-19 pandemic, the link between politics and health became glaringly obvious. Democrat-leaning “blue” states were more likely to enact mask requirements and vaccine and social distancing mandates. Republican-leaning “red” states were much more resistant to health measures. The consequences of those differences emerged by the end of 2020, when rates of hospitalization and death from COVID rose in conservative counties and dropped in liberal ones. That divergence continued through 2021, when vaccines became widely available. And although the highly transmissible Omicron variant narrowed the gap in infection rates, hospitalization and death rates, which are dramatically reduced by vaccines, remain higher in Republican-leaning parts of the country. But we have already discussed this a number of times.... I read an article that perhaps explained why. I tried to find this article to share here but I couldn't. I read it a couple of years ago. This article made much more sense. The article noted that higher illness and death rates occurred in more rural areas due to a number of factors, the most significant factor being lack of access to adequate healthcare. Additionally, mask and vaccines were made more readily available in urban areas due to their high density populations, as they should have been. Those high density population centers were also prone to initiate mandates as compared to rural farming and ranching communities with very low densities. The connection to politics and parties was really only because higher density population centers tend to be more democrat than republican. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 49 minutes ago, Pokebball said: This article made much more sense. True, we all do suffer from confirmation bias. 50 minutes ago, Pokebball said: The article noted that higher illness and death rates occurred in more rural areas And where do conservatives tend to live? Where do we see a plethora of Trump supporters, Trump flags and 'Don't Tread On Me' flags? 52 minutes ago, Pokebball said: lack of access to adequate healthcare. Screams red counties and states. 55 minutes ago, Pokebball said: The connection to politics and parties was really only because higher density population centers tend to be more democrat than republican. Maybe read thru this study... Excess Death Rates for Republican and Democratic Registered Voters in Florida and Ohio During the COVID-19 Pandemic Question: Was political party affiliation a risk factor associated with excess mortality during the COVID-19 pandemic in Florida and Ohio? Findings: In this cohort study evaluating 538 159 deaths in individuals aged 25 years and older in Florida and Ohio between March 2020 and December 2021, excess mortality was significantly higher for Republican voters than Democratic voters after COVID-19 vaccines were available to all adults, but not before. These differences were concentrated in counties with lower vaccination rates, and primarily noted in voters residing in Ohio Meaning: The differences in excess mortality by political party affiliation after COVID-19 vaccines were available to all adults suggest that differences in vaccination attitudes and reported uptake between Republican and Democratic voters may have been a factor in the severity and trajectory of the pandemic in the US. Or this study: Study: More Republicans than Democrats likely died of COVID A Cornell University study found that former President Donald Trump was the “single largest driver” of misinformation about the disease and research by European economists indicated that watching a lot of Fox News correlated with vaccine hesitancy. “In 2018 and the early parts of 2020, excess death rates for Republicans and Democrats are similar, and centered around zero,” wrote the researchers, Jacob Wallace, Jason L. Schwartz and Paul Goldsmith-Pinkham. “Both groups experienced a similar large spike in excess deaths in the winter of 2020-2021. However, in the summer of 2021 — after vaccines were widely available — the Republican excess death rate rose to nearly double that of Democrats, and this gap widened further in the winter of 2021.” At what point do you simply acknowledge that you were sold a false bill of goods? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokebball Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 (edited) I don't think your causation v correlation works for most Americans. I live in the largest city in what is probably the most R state in the union. I wore masks, social distanced and got each and every one of my vaccines. Access and population density absolutely matter. Don't be ignorant Edited April 10 by Pokebball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 2 minutes ago, Pokebball said: I don't think your causation v correlation works for most Americans. Oh, it does... and it's no surprise to anyone with a brain. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanNC Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 Masks don't work as a public health measure against respiratory viruses. Period. Anyone who still advances this nonsense as part of The Science? Yup, useful idiot litmus test. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokebball Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 20 minutes ago, BillStime said: Oh, it does... and it's no surprise to anyone with a brain. So perhaps the deeper question is, do you support freedom and liberty for all Americans to do as they choose? This is a trick question, so it will require some critical thinking on your part 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 16 minutes ago, Pokebball said: So perhaps the deeper question is, do you support freedom and liberty for all Americans to do as they choose? This is a trick question, so it will require some critical thinking on your part I do as long as you and @Doc attribute the blame for those who die refusing a vaccine that could potentially save their life. Ironically, the only party that appears to disregard freedom and liberty for all Americans is yours. Your party is infringing on the civil rights of women, the LGBTQ+ community, their families, voting rights, and reproductive freedom, among others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokebball Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 4 minutes ago, BillStime said: I do as long as you and @Doc attribute the blame for those who die refusing a vaccine that could potentially save their life. Ironically, the only party that appears to disregard freedom and liberty for all Americans is yours. Your party is infringing on the civil rights of women, the LGBTQ+ community, their families, voting rights, and reproductive freedom, among others. Obvious hypocrisy in your post here, young man. And I even gave you a heads up 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted April 10 Author Share Posted April 10 Trump the sore loser has all these losers making excuses for him...and Putin. MAGA just makes me sick. F them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokebball Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 4 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Trump the sore loser has all these losers making excuses for him...and Putin. MAGA just makes me sick. F them. ban 'em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 14 minutes ago, Pokebball said: Obvious hypocrisy in your post here, young man. And I even gave you a heads up You didn’t like the answer cuz it’s true. You talk about freedoms and liberties of Americans while simultaneously undermining individual rights. You can’t square it and your hypocrisy is noted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 1 hour ago, BillsFanNC said: Masks don't work as a public health measure against respiratory viruses. Period. Anyone who still advances this nonsense as part of The Science? Yup, useful idiot litmus test. Link? Why do so many doctors still weAr them? Why are they required in the OR? Produce an article from a scholarly journal that supports your blanket statement. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Callahan Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 Just now, Joe Ferguson forever said: Link? Why do so many doctors still weAr them? Why are they required in the OR? Produce an article from a scholarly journal that supports your blanket statement. You mean where they follow bbp procedures and remove them the correct way, and directly into the red bag to be incinerated. Cause if not, one mask becomes the vector. Weren't you a doctor. You just used the same gloves, mask from patient to patient then tossed them in your back seat after work so you could use them again? Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 1 hour ago, Pokebball said: I don't think your causation v correlation works for most Americans. I live in the largest city in what is probably the most R state in the union. I wore masks, social distanced and got each and every one of my vaccines. Access and population density absolutely matter. Don't be ignorant I practiced in a rural, very red area with some of the worst infection and death rates. No coincidence that compliance with public health measures and vax rates were awful. There was an excellent study done by Vanderbilt comparing morbidity and mortality in affluent, well educated and more compliant Nashville to red hillbilly areas. Guess which place did much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Tommy Callahan said: You mean where they follow bbp procedures and remove them the correct way, and directly into the red bag to be incinerated. Cause if not, one mask becomes the vector. Weren't you a doctor. You just used the same gloves, mask from patient to patient then tossed them in your back seat after work so you could use them again? Why not? I am a doctor. It never goes away. Still boarded and licensed just retired. Masks are always single use. No one ever recommended otherwise except when there was a ridiculous shortage of N95's and cleaning methods were recommended. Whose fault was the shortage? Why do MAGAs hate science so? Oh right, cuz it doesn't fit with your narrative. Neither does truth. Edited April 10 by Joe Ferguson forever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokebball Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 3 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson forever said: I practiced in a rural, very red area with some of the worst infection and death rates. No coincidence that compliance with public health measures and vax rates were awful. There was an excellent study done by Vanderbilt comparing morbidity and mortality in affluent, well educated and more compliant Nashville to red hillbilly areas. Guess which place did much better. I live in a very rural state. Access to masks, gloves, and hospitals was lacking. We did the best we could given the limited access to healthcare we had. Availability of the vaccine was limited. Family members got covid and the family was the primary care. The area of my state hit the worse was uneducated democrats. It wasn't party affiliation. It wasn't education. It was location / geographic (the further you were from access to healthcare, the worse it was). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 6 minutes ago, Pokebball said: I live in a very rural state. Access to masks, gloves, and hospitals was lacking. We did the best we could given the limited access to healthcare we had. Availability of the vaccine was limited. Family members got covid and the family was the primary care. The area of my state hit the worse was uneducated democrats. It wasn't party affiliation. It wasn't education. It was location / geographic (the further you were from access to healthcare, the worse it was). by mid pandemic, there was plenty of vaccine. The statistics that Billsy linked are fact. Red states did worse than blue ones... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokebball Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 7 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson forever said: by mid pandemic, there was plenty of vaccine. The statistics that Billsy linked are fact. Red states did worse than blue ones... my fact is also correct, rural states did worse than urban states. Painfully obvious that the reason is limitations to access. 38 minutes ago, BillStime said: You didn’t like the answer cuz it’s true. You talk about freedoms and liberties of Americans while simultaneously undermining individual rights. You can’t square it and your hypocrisy is noted. My argument is very easy to square. You're the one that doesn't want to give liberty to a life. I'm most consistent 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 1 minute ago, Pokebball said: my fact is also correct, rural states did worse than urban states. Painfully obvious that the reason is limitations to access. Not obvious at all. Early on there was no treatment which was also true even after the introduction of the vax which was widely available. As Billsy has linked, vax rates were the most important variable. Mask use was also a significant variable in many studies. Masks were widely available when the vax came out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokebball Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson forever said: Not obvious at all. Early on there was no treatment which was also true even after the introduction of the vax which was widely available. As Billsy has linked, vax rates were the most important variable. Mask use was also a significant variable in many studies. Masks were widely available when the vax came out. Very obvious. Vax rates were most important, when access to adequate health care existed. Access becomes obviously more important when you aren't ventilated. You claim to understand rural healthcare, but you obviously don't. Edited April 10 by Pokebball 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 20 minutes ago, Pokebball said: Very obvious. Vax rates were most important, when access to adequate health care existed. Access becomes obviously more important when you aren't ventilated. You claim to understand rural healthcare, but you obviously don't. Bs. I understand ignorance in vax rates very well. Access wasn’t very important when there was no effective treatment. Please link an article illustrating that vax was most important when access was adequate. The vast majority oh the ICU pts and dying patients were unvaxed. The unvaxedused the most resources while dying more frequently. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 52 minutes ago, Pokebball said: The area of my state hit the worse was uneducated democrats Everyone has a story to tell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 5 minutes ago, BillStime said: Everyone has a story to tell They love their anecdotes. Real science is harder to understand 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanNC Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7707213/ In this community-based, randomized controlled trial conducted in a setting where mask wearing was uncommon and was not among other recommended public health measures related to COVID-19, a recommendation to wear a surgical mask when outside the home among others did not reduce, at conventional levels of statistical significance, incident SARS-CoV-2 infection compared with no mask recommendation. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 24 minutes ago, BillsFanNC said: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7707213/ In this community-based, randomized controlled trial conducted in a setting where mask wearing was uncommon and was not among other recommended public health measures related to COVID-19, a recommendation to wear a surgical mask when outside the home among others did not reduce, at conventional levels of statistical significance, incident SARS-CoV-2 infection compared with no mask recommendation. I still laugh at these freaks arguing over the effectiveness of masks... If they were effective and kept people safe - great. If not, better to be safe than sorry. BFD. Idiots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unforgiven Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 The mask thing was a cult thing....like muslim women being forced to cover their faces. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 3 hours ago, BillStime said: I do as long as you and @Doc attribute the blame for those who die refusing a vaccine that could potentially save their life. Ironically, the only party that appears to disregard freedom and liberty for all Americans is yours. Your party is infringing on the civil rights of women, the LGBTQ+ community, their families, voting rights, and reproductive freedom, among others. As I said in another thread, there was no vaccine under Trump to refuse. Or treatments. And Kamala Harris said she wouldn't trust the vaccine. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 Just now, Doc said: As I said in another thread, there was no vaccine under Trump to refuse. Or treatments. And Kamala Harris said she wouldn't trust the vaccine. Do you have an issue with your hippocampus? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 (edited) 2 hours ago, BillsFanNC said: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7707213/ In this community-based, randomized controlled trial conducted in a setting where mask wearing was uncommon and was not among other recommended public health measures related to COVID-19, a recommendation to wear a surgical mask when outside the home among others did not reduce, at conventional levels of statistical significance, incident SARS-CoV-2 infection compared with no mask recommendation. I appreciate you taking up the challenge but one must look at multiple studies especially when they are observational. The strong preponderance of evidence points to this conclusion among most Infectious Disease folks: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8499874/ "all studies we analysed that did not find surgical masks to be effective were under-powered to such an extent that even if masks were 100% effective, the studies in question would still have been unlikely to find a statistically significant effect" A more recent review from JAMA: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2811136 "Available evidence strongly suggests that masking in the community can reduce the spread of SARS-CoV-2 and that masking with the highest-quality masks that can be made widely available should play an important role in controlling whatever pandemic caused by a respiratory pathogen awaits us." Edited April 10 by Joe Ferguson forever 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Callahan Posted April 11 Share Posted April 11 (edited) 18 hours ago, Joe Ferguson forever said: I am a doctor. It never goes away. Still boarded and licensed just retired. Masks are always single use. No one ever recommended otherwise except when there was a ridiculous shortage of N95's and cleaning methods were recommended. Whose fault was the shortage? Why do MAGAs hate science so? Oh right, cuz it doesn't fit with your narrative. Neither does truth. LOL, tell that to the ones still wearing the same one over and over again like a badge of honor. Or the countless mob and media narratives that never included any logistics or direction on Disposal. as none were ever created. and the mask were in parking lots, on the streets and stacking up on people's shifters and passenger seats, still are. Edited April 11 by Tommy Callahan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted April 11 Share Posted April 11 1 hour ago, Tommy Callahan said: LOL, tell that to the ones still wearing the same one over and over again like a badge of honor. you can't fix stupid. it's been proven on this forum repeatedly. There will always be the intellectually deficient. I need to do some looking but last I knew fomites (look it up) were not a significant source of Covid spread. Aerosolized droplets accounted for nearly all infections. Then it becomes a risk/benefit analysis which appears to be clearly on the side of masks as evidenced by the conclusion of the JAMA review I linked.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Callahan Posted April 11 Share Posted April 11 1 hour ago, Joe Ferguson forever said: you can't fix stupid. it's been proven on this forum repeatedly. There will always be the intellectually deficient. I need to do some looking but last I knew fomites (look it up) were not a significant source of Covid spread. Aerosolized droplets accounted for nearly all infections. Then it becomes a risk/benefit analysis which appears to be clearly on the side of masks as evidenced by the conclusion of the JAMA review I linked.... Employers of healthcare workers are responsible for following applicable OSHA requirements, including OSHA's Bloodborne Pathogens (29 CFR 1910.1030), Personal Protective Equipment (29 CFR 1910.132), and Respiratory Protection (29 CFR 1910.134) standards. without those processes, the PPE becomes the vector. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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