Diggs proves the trade skeptics wrong

[dma0034]

59 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Its pretty difficult to compare receivers on two different teams in two completely different offensive systems I feel like.  It would be hard to call this anything but a win win for both teams.  We were closer to our window of competing and wanted an established wr...rookie wide outs usually take awhile to develop so we may have not wanted to take a risk on any of the guys available in the draft.  

 

They aren't super unsimilar. And everyone does it: Who is the best WR in football right now? You don't say "depends on if you mean a slot receiver or a deep route" it's all or nothing. Diggs for 5 years isn't as valuable as Jefferson for 10. 

 

33 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

We didn’t trade Justin Jefferson, we traded the pick that became Jefferson. 
 

Who is to say we don’t trade up and CeeDee Lamb? What if they take Dugger in RD1 had they not traded for Jefferson? 
 

Jefferson is great, Jefferson wasn’t going to provide our offense what we needed. He wasn’t. 
 

It’s a win/win for both sides. Minnesota is paying a lot of money for an average QB and minimal money for a very good WR. We’re paying a lot of money for a very good WR and minimal money for a very good QB. Different teams, different situations, different needs and different trajectories. 
 

Answer this question, even if you believe Jefferson is a better receiver than Diggs... would he have been a better receiver for US than Diggs? 

 

Yeah yeah, we also didn't trade Mahomes we traded the pick that became Mahomes. The pick was used to select Jefferson so that's the argument. 

 

Do I think Jefferson would be a better receiver? Yes, I do. Vikings gave him limited snaps in the first two weeks. Bills have thrown 428 times this year; Vikings 363. And yet Jefferson has put up similar yardage. He is their #1 WR

 

 

32 minutes ago, Just Joshin' said:

Please repost when Jefferson has sustained success.  Off to a good start but many players have one good year.

 

Dumb. This is his rookie season and he will put up a better season that Diggs has ever had in terms of stats. This is the Steven A. Smith award for "he's unproven and therefore not great". Guess Allen sucks because he hasn't won a playoff game?

 

30 minutes ago, SageAgainstTheMachine said:

The Bills had no way of knowing Jefferson would be available and we have no way of knowing that he would have been their pick had they been given the chance (enormously deep WR class). 

 

We traded the pick for Diggs, not Jefferson for Diggs.  Diggs was worth the pick.  You don't analyze draft pick trades by analyzing what the trade partner did with the pick unless it's an extreme case like 1st overall and there's a unanimous best player.

 

That is a fair point. 

 

5 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

The one thing you're likely way understating is how much Diggs being here has helped Allen.  Jefferson never could have provided that as a rookie.  Diggs also likely had helped Davis develop too.

 

Very good point. No doubt that Diggs has more knowledge and has contributed to Josh's growth. What you aren't stating is how Jefferson is 5 years younger. He could be a difference make for 10 years. Diggs is probably 5. I don't want short term success. I want long term success. 

[JaCrispy]

7 hours ago, 27yanks said:

"I want him to be him. I don't want him to be anything else but him," Daboll said. "He's got juice, he's got fiery competitiveness, he's got swagger -- and I want him to have it because it rubs off on our team.

"He's an old throwback. He wants to grind at practice, you've got to take him out because he just wants to keep going. And if it's not right at practice, he gets hot. He's just been such a pleasure to be around."

This is a fantastic quote...thanks for sharing...👍

[JGMcD2]

7 minutes ago, dma0034 said:

 

They aren't super unsimilar. And everyone does it: Who is the best WR in football right now? You don't say "depends on if you mean a slot receiver or a deep route" it's all or nothing. Diggs for 5 years isn't as valuable as Jefferson for 10. 

 

 

Yeah yeah, we also didn't trade Mahomes we traded the pick that became Mahomes. The pick was used to select Jefferson so that's the argument. 

 

Do I think Jefferson would be a better receiver? Yes, I do. Vikings gave him limited snaps in the first two weeks. Bills have thrown 428 times this year; Vikings 363. And yet Jefferson has put up similar yardage. He is their #1 WR

 

 

 

Dumb. This is his rookie season and he will put up a better season that Diggs has ever had in terms of stats. This is the Steven A. Smith award for "he's unproven and therefore not great". Guess Allen sucks because he hasn't won a playoff game?

 

 

That is a fair point. 

 

 

Very good point. No doubt that Diggs has more knowledge and has contributed to Josh's growth. What you aren't stating is how Jefferson is 5 years younger. He could be a difference make for 10 years. Diggs is probably 5. I don't want short term success. I want long term success. 

Wait a minute... I said the same thing as @SageAgainstTheMachine and his point was fair and mine wasn’t? Way to conveniently contradict yourself in the same post... 
 

You also didn’t answer my question... do you think Justin Jefferson would provide for our offense what Stefon Diggs has? You know, like the things that can’t be quantified? 
 

I didn’t ask if you thought he was better, that’s been established. 
 

EDIT: Which now I see that you answer my question in response to someone else and admit that Diggs has provided things that Jefferson wouldn’t have been able to this season. 
 

Edited December 9, 2020 by JGMcD2

[dma0034]

2 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

Wait a minute... I said the same thing as @SageAgainstTheMachine and his point was fair and mine wasn’t? Way to conveniently contradict yourself in the same post... 
 

You also didn’t answer my question... do you think Justin Jefferson would provide for our offense what Stefon Diggs has? You know, like the things that can’t be quantified? 
 

I didn’t ask if you thought he was better, that’s been established. 

 

I did answer that. 100% he would.

[JGMcD2]

11 minutes ago, dma0034 said:

 

I did answer that. 100% he would.

But you also contradict yourself and say that Diggs has provided things that have helped Josh grow this season that need to be taken into account...you’re hopping between arguments there... unless you think that Jefferson would provide a veteran presence that’s helped Josh grow? You contradict yourself twice in the same post responding to me and then in subsequent responses to other posters. 

 

If your argument is that Jefferson is going to be around longer because he’s younger, that’s fine. I mean that’s not being argued... he’s younger than Diggs so I’d expect him to play a little longer... 
 

The sustained success comment you made doesn’t make a ton of sense, really, Diggs is controlled for the same amount of time as Jefferson. We’d then have to provide an extension to retain either player’s services beyond that point... what if he signs a contract with another team? Does that contribute to sustained success? 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2020 by JGMcD2

[dma0034]

3 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

But you also contradict yourself and say that Diggs has provided things that have helped Josh grow this season that need to be taken into account...you’re hopping between arguments there... unless you think that Jefferson would provide a veteran presence that’s helped Josh grow? 

 

If your argument is that Jefferson is going to be around longer because he’s younger, that’s fine. I mean that’s not being argued... he’s younger than Diggs so I’d expect him to play a little longer... 
 

 

The sustained success comment you made doesn’t make a ton of sense, really, Diggs is controlled for the same amount of time as Jefferson. We’d then have to provide an extension to retain either player’s services beyond that point... what if he signs a contract with another team? Does that contribute to sustained success? 

 

 

 

 

I don't really think the Bills needed a veteran presence. They have Beasley and Brown as WRs... you think Diggs provides a veteran presence with that group? He helps Josh because Josh is looks for him often on 3rd down (especially with no John Brown)

 

Jefferson is controlled longer than Diggs because of age. Jefferson will get another contract with the Vikings (or they'll franchise tag him). Diggs isn't getting a Franchise tag at 31 and even if he did he isn't going to get a long term extension like Jefferson. Let's not pretend that Diggs is going to play until he is 38 at a high level

 

[27yanks]

7 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

Yah, anyone who thinks Buffalo gave up to much on this trade, or thought Diggs would not fit in and grow with this team is an idiot. 
 

Go Bills!!!

Dude swing by Ne and pick me up!!!

Just now, 27yanks said:

Dude swing by Ne and pick me up!!!

🌴🌴🌴🌴

[JGMcD2]

19 minutes ago, dma0034 said:

 

 

I don't really think the Bills needed a veteran presence. They have Beasley and Brown as WRs... you think Diggs provides a veteran presence with that group? He helps Josh because Josh is looks for him often on 3rd down (especially with no John Brown)

 

Jefferson is controlled longer than Diggs because of age. Jefferson will get another contract with the Vikings (or they'll franchise tag him). Diggs isn't getting a Franchise tag at 31 and even if he did he isn't going to get a long term extension like Jefferson. Let's not pretend that Diggs is going to play until he is 38 at a high level

 

Diggs has done more to help Josh other than Josh looking for him on third downs... come on... is that really all you believe he’s provided Josh? 
 

I don’t think you understand what control is. Control is how long a player is under contract.  Jefferson isn’t controlled longer than Diggs... he’s just younger than Diggs. Both of their contracts run out in 2023. Therefore neither are controlled past that year. 
 

You have fundamentally botched the very definition of what control is and anything else you’re providing about a franchise tag or extension is purely speculation and not actual control over either player. 

Edited December 10, 2020 by JGMcD2

[dma0034]

2 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

Diggs has done more to help Josh other than Josh looking for him on third downs... come on... is that really all you believe he’s provided Josh? 
 

I don’t think you understand what control is. Control is how long a player is under contract.  Jefferson isn’t controlled longer than Diggs... he’s just younger than Diggs. Both of their contracts run out in 2023. Therefore neither are controlled past that year. 
 

You have fundamentally botched the very definition of what control is and anything else you’re providing about a franchise tag or extension is purely speculation and not actual control over either player. 

 

I'm not saying the Vikings have complete control. I'm saying they are more likely to sign Jefferson than the Bills are to signing Diggs. You keep trying to make points as a way to counter me.... they don't. You aren't taking into age. You keep acting like Jefferson is going to walk away and the Vikings will after 5 years (remember Vikings get 5th year option). Also Diggs is only signed for 4 years so once again: you're wrong.

 

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Trade skeptics were mostly with regard and in comparison to what Buffalo fave up compared to Arizona for Hopkins. Everyone feels Hopkins is a better WR and the trade value given up by Arizona was far less.

But in the end that doesn't much matter.  Diggs appears to be well worth the 1st  round pick.

[JGMcD2]

Just now, dma0034 said:

 

I'm not saying the Vikings have complete control. I'm saying they are more likely to sign Jefferson than the Bills are to signing Diggs. You keep trying to make points as a way to counter me.... they don't. You aren't taking into age. You keep acting like Jefferson is going to walk away and the Vikings will after 5 years (remember Vikings get 5th year option). Also Diggs is only signed for 4 years so once again: you're wrong.

 

 

I’ve acknowledged the age point numerous times, it doesn’t guarantee the Vikings will control him longer... it just means it’s more likely he will play longer than Diggs. I’m not acting like he’s going to walk away or they won’t extend him... literally nobody knows what is going to happen with Jefferson beyond 2023... it’s speculation. The facts are that they’re both controlled through 2023... it’s indisputable. 
 

Well then they don’t have control... they just are more likely to sign him to extension. That’s not remotely the same thing. 
 

I understand they have a 5th year option... that’s not guaranteed... it’s exactly what it sounds like... an option. It’s not a guarantee... it’s an option. 
 

Once again, I’m wrong? The only one who’s been wrong is you... you have and continue to misdefine the word control in the context of sports. 

[dma0034]

Just now, JGMcD2 said:

I’ve acknowledged the age point numerous times, it doesn’t guarantee the Vikings will control him longer... it just means it’s more likely he will play longer than Diggs. I’m not acting like he’s going to walk away or they won’t extend him... literally nobody knows what is going to happen with Jefferson beyond 2023... it’s speculation. The facts are that they’re both controlled through 2023... it’s indisputable. 
 

Well then they don’t have control... they just are more likely to sign him to extension. That’s not remotely the same thing. 
 

I understand they have a 5th year option... that’s not guaranteed... it’s exactly what it sounds like... an option. It’s not a guarantee... it’s an option. 
 

Once again, I’m wrong? The only one who’s been wrong is you... you have and continue to misdefine the word control in the context of sports. 

 

 

It's an option for the team...... that means Team Control. Teams leverage the franchise tag into signing players long term. SO after 5 years when Jefferson is 26 the team will leverage the franchise tag and have him sign for probably between 4-6 years. After 4 years Diggs will be 30; it is less likely the Bills will sign him to a longer term deal; if anything they'll use a franchise tag maybe once due to age or sign him to a shorter deal. This isn't even like a prediction; it's what 99% of the clubs with franchise players do. The only thing that gets in the way of that imo is injury which I'm not going to include in this conversation for either Diggs or Jefferson. 

[JGMcD2]

1 minute ago, dma0034 said:

 

 

It's an option for the team...... that means Team Control. Teams leverage the franchise tag into signing players long term. SO after 5 years when Jefferson is 26 the team will leverage the franchise tag and have him sign for probably between 4-6 years. After 4 years Diggs will be 30; it is less likely the Bills will sign him to a longer term deal; if anything they'll use a franchise tag maybe once due to age or sign him to a shorter deal. This isn't even like a prediction; it's what 99% of the clubs with franchise players do. The only thing that gets in the way of that imo is injury which I'm not going to include in this conversation for either Diggs or Jefferson. 

Well you said control the entire time... not team control, again something different. Syntax matters. 
 

There are plenty of things that get in the way of Jefferson remaining with the Vikings... Jefferson not continuing to produce at the level he’s producing at? Or Jefferson signing with another team in FA? Or Jefferson being traded away? 
 

That’s speculation, so like you, I won’t get into it. But injury is not the only thing that gets in the way of that. Diggs is literally an example of what you’re describing happening with Jefferson and he didn’t see the end of this contract with Minnesota. 

[Don Otreply]

44 minutes ago, 27yanks said:

Dude swing by Ne and pick me up!!!

🌴🌴🌴🌴

Way to cold up there, headed farther south in the am, 😁

[Steptide]

All I know is I'm thankful the bills avoided the Antonio brown trade. What a disaster that would've been, and who knows how it would've impacted Allen or the rest of the team 

[jlgarsh]

8 hours ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

 

Stanky I don't know about your physical skills, but I do know mine and I swear to you that when I watch him on some plays he makes other professionals whose job it is to cover him look like me in trying to do it.  

 

It's like slow motion.

 

It's like they are standing still and maybe they have never stepped on a football field before that play.

 

Really.  Really it is.  

 

For those of you who don't already know what we are talking about, go look at some of the tape.  

Diggs has the best footwork i think I've ever seen. His ability to get 2 feet down on any sideline/ending is unreal. He's elevated his teammates as well. Beasley has taken his game up to another level this year.

[jlgarsh]

2 hours ago, HOUSE said:

Back in 1st place for WRs

https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/receiving/2020/REG/all/receivingreceptions/desc

Still 4 games left. Does Moulds have the Bills single season record?

[BADOLBILZ]

 

I still support the decision to make the trade.............but Minnesota got rid of a player who was at odds with the fully guaranteed-contract-QB,  they saved like $50M in salary and got a player who looks like he's already as good or better.    More yards, A TON more yards per catch and more TD's.  

 

No guarantee who Beane would have picked had he maintained the selection.........he after all had foolishly passed on the likes of AJ Brown, DK Metcalf and Terry McLaurin in favor of Cody Ford.   But had they gotten Jefferson I don't think there is any evidence that they'd be any worse off as a team this season.   That dude is a game breaker.

 

 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

2 hours ago, dma0034 said:

Very good point. No doubt that Diggs has more knowledge and has contributed to Josh's growth. What you aren't stating is how Jefferson is 5 years younger. He could be a difference make for 10 years. Diggs is probably 5. I don't want short term success. I want long term success. 

 

Long term success like Hopkins with Texans, or OBJ with Giants, or Sammy in Buffalo?  If you can get five years success out of almost any player these days you're doing good.  To much can change to quickly to worry about ten years out.  Recall maybe 4 or 5 years back all the talk about how Dallas would have the best O-line for the next ten years or so, how's that working? 

 

The one exception being QB IF you do find a good one, try and do everything to hang on, but that's often at the demise of affording other players.  Even that's tricky, look at Tannerhill in Miami.  Allen, Mahomes, maybe Murrey to be able to afford then, if/once they become top talent, you can't afford the #1 WR's and others, instead you need to keep drafting new ones on rookie contracts.  Look at all the churn in Green Bay WR group over the years.  Overall you need a ten year plan, but best to keep as few actual names in it as you can so not really thinking about what Jefferson can give you ten years from now.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, HOUSE said:

Back in 1st place for WRs

https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/receiving/2020/REG/all/receivingreceptions/desc

 

 

First in catches.............tied for 75th in yards per catch.

 

Allen was amazing against SF but they need Brown back so they can get Diggs some room to run his routes past the sticks like he did in the first month of the season.  

 

That would stop the prevalence of the 7-8 yard grabs with zero RAC that have putting them in too many unnecessary 3rd and 4th down situations.   In the meantime learning to turn and get low and dive for the line to go after those shorties like Beasley does would be helpful.