What Do We Do Now About Our Government?

[KRC]

Taking John Adams' lead, let talk about what we can do to fix the problems in our government. As the OP, I will set the ground rules .

 

Without blaming a political party or any specific politician, how do we fix the systemic issues that have put us in the situation we are in right now? There have been obvious failures on multiple levels that never should have happened. Can it be fixed or are we too far gone? We are still waiting on Barr and Durham to see if any unelected officials will be held accountable. We still have the matter of elected official accountability which is also underway. Other than voting people out of office to handle the elected official problem, how do we address the unelected official part of the problem?

 

What is the over/under on how fast someone will break the rules.

Edited December 12, 2019 by KRC

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

3 minutes ago, KRC said:

Taking John Adams' lead, let talk about what we can do to fix the problems in our government. As the OP, I will set the ground rules .

 

Without blaming a political party or any specific politician, how do we fix the systemic issues that have put us in the situation we are in right now? There have been obvious failures on multiple levels that never should have happened. Can it be fixed or are we too far gone? We are still waiting on Barr and Durham to see if any unelected officials will be held accountable. We still have the matter of elected official accountability which is also underway. Other than voting people out of office to handle the elected official problem, how do we address the unelected official part of the problem?

 

What is the over/under on how fast someone will break the rules.

 

......highly, HIGHLY skeptical that anything would be fixed for the "good 'ol boyz" network......take for example something that I would term as an "easy first start", suggesting term limits......and how many YEARS has that can been kicked down the road?.....

[Foxx]

if they're in, they're out. kick the whole lot of them to curb and start over.

[GG]

It can only be fixed with a constant turnover of the perpetual bureaucracy.   

[John Adams]

(Productive topic KRC. You should run for president.)

 

1. From the halls of Congress and the Executive needs to come leadership where elected officials get credit for working with those on the other side, and represent the constituents who didn't vote for them. Trump is ALL OF OUR president. Congress is our Congress. Hold elected officials accountable (at the ballot box, in social media) for demonizing the other side and also the people they represent, even if those people disagree with them. 

 

2. Elect people who respect and obey the rule of law. 

 

3. Ask your elected officials to focus on dinner table issues, as well as those dinner table issues that affect people in 30 years (spending and social security, I'm looking at you). 

 

4. Stop thinking in good vs evil. It's just dumb. Nothing is so simple. My D and R neighbors are not good or evil. They are people, with people problems. This idea that there's a darkness in the world and a hidden war going on is utter crap. To the extent there are a few underbellies, sure of course. But that's not the norm and it doesn't control the world, especially yours. This thing we do here at PPP of making the other side into a name and meme is unproductive, bad for America, and stupid. Yeah, I just called people calling people stupid, stupid. I get it! I'm an offender too. Color me hypocrite, color me human.  

 

5. "It can only be fixed with a constant turnover of the perpetual bureaucracy" says GG. There's the elected bureaucracy, and then there's the rest of the leviathan. I'm not sure term limits solve as much as people hope. You can end up with people who suck at their jobs or rise in populist waves. But I'm not against trying. The rest of the leviathan will always be there. So legislate the leviathan's rules well and enforce them. For example, if you create a FISA court that will be used by agents whose job it is to find things, create laws that make it hard for them to convince judges to allow for spying on Americans. 

 

6. Engage in a meaningful dialog about freedom vs not. If we create a FISA process (and others), we sacrifice freedom. People will die in horrible ways because we aren't watching as much as we could unfettered by laws. There will always be a tension between spying on citizens and preventing crime. It's OK to play tug-o-war about that line but neither side is wrong, except at the extremes. 

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by John Adams

[3rdnlng]

3 minutes ago, GG said:

It can only be fixed with a constant turnover of the perpetual bureaucracy.   

This right here. Changing laws to enforce new levels of adherence isn't the answer. We're a nation of laws and we have criminals embedded in our government protected by criminals. No amount of half measures are going to straighten the situation out. People that are in our government that break the law should be penalized to the fullest extent. Remember, we're talking about people who tried to overthrow our duly elected president by breaking our laws.

[John Adams]

2 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

This right here. Changing laws to enforce new levels of adherence isn't the answer. We're a nation of laws and we have criminals embedded in our government protected by criminals. No amount of half measures are going to straighten the situation out. People that are in our government that break the law should be penalized to the fullest extent. Remember, we're talking about people who tried to overthrow our duly elected president by breaking our laws.

 

That's just tossing out the elected officials, a massive minority of the government. 

 

I don't know the local statistics (and suspect they mirror the federal) but at a federal level, Americans don't vote out incumbents and incumbents are unlikely to limit their terms. 

 

 

 

[FireChans]

How do you get rid of unelected officials? Honestly. Term limits for FBI directors?

[3rdnlng]

1 minute ago, John Adams said:

 

That's just tossing out the elected officials, a massive minority of the government. 

 

I don't know the local statistics (and suspect they mirror the federal) but at a federal level, Americans don't vote out incumbents and incumbents are unlikely to limit their terms. 

 

 

 

I was referring to people who break the law, not just elected officials. In fact the bureaucracy is where the real problem likely exists. 

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

How do you get rid of unelected officials? Honestly. Term limits for FBI directors?

Already have one.

[dubs]

1 hour ago, KRC said:

Taking John Adams' lead, let talk about what we can do to fix the problems in our government. As the OP, I will set the ground rules .

 

Without blaming a political party or any specific politician, how do we fix the systemic issues that have put us in the situation we are in right now? There have been obvious failures on multiple levels that never should have happened. Can it be fixed or are we too far gone? We are still waiting on Barr and Durham to see if any unelected officials will be held accountable. We still have the matter of elected official accountability which is also underway. Other than voting people out of office to handle the elected official problem, how do we address the unelected official part of the problem?

 

What is the over/under on how fast someone will break the rules.

get back to federalism. The centralized power, influence and money in the federal government draws these people to DC like moths to a flame. 
 

if control goes back to the states, then at least people can vote with their ballot and their feet. 

Edited December 12, 2019 by dubs

[RochesterRob]

  Steep penalties.  While term limits makes us feel good the crooks will respond by getting their objectives accomplished in a shorter time period.  The problem with steep penalties is frame ups to get rid of political opponents such as we see now.  Long term I don't see an answer as morality and honesty cannot be legislated in terms of how the individual conducts himself.  Yes, we can pass laws intended guide all citizens but we cannot be there all the time to see if each and every politician is adhering to those laws and is not practicing misconduct in secret.  Probably why I see this nation heading into dark times ahead.

[GG]

22 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

This right here. Changing laws to enforce new levels of adherence isn't the answer. We're a nation of laws and we have criminals embedded in our government protected by criminals. No amount of half measures are going to straighten the situation out. People that are in our government that break the law should be penalized to the fullest extent. Remember, we're talking about people who tried to overthrow our duly elected president by breaking our laws.

 

The simplest tell of the government sprawl is the transformation of DC's real estate.  Take a look at all new construction inside the Beltway, which is all directly or indirectly funded with federal dollars.  There should be stricter limits on empire building within the government bureaucracy.    Mandating term/time limits for federal employees is probably illegal, but you can certainly implement job rotation or continue moving some departments outside the Beltway.

[KRC]

31 minutes ago, John Adams said:

For example, if you create a FISA court that will be used by agents whose job it is to find things, create laws that make it hard for them to convince judges to allow for spying on Americans. 

 

 

Good post. I am going to focus on one of your points above. I absolutely agree. It should not be easy to spy on Americans. I know there is a downside in preventing mass shootings/terrorist attacks/etc. However, you should not be able to spy on American citizens without jumping through a crap-load of hoops. It needs to be far more difficult that it appears to be currently.

[3rdnlng]

2 minutes ago, KRC said:

 

Good post. I am going to focus on one of your points above. I absolutely agree. It should not be easy to spy on Americans. I know there is a downside in preventing mass shootings/terrorist attacks/etc. However, you should not be able to spy on American citizens without jumping through a crap-load of hoops. It needs to be far more difficult that it appears to be currently.

While I agree that the law may need to be strengthened but remember the old law was broken by deceitful FBI employees. New laws don't do jackshit if they aren't going to be followed. It's an adherence problem, not a lack of laws. 

[DC Tom]

1 hour ago, KRC said:

What is the over/under on how fast someone will break the rules.

 

I don't know, but when someone does, it'll be the Democrats' fault.

 

Seriously, though...I think the government's beyond fixing.  Either accept that we're going to be living in some sort of oligarchic aristocracy for the foreseeable future (at best - at worst, a dystopian Robespierrian fascist Republic with West Virginia playing the part of the Vendee), or take up arms against it.  But we're well into a generational trend away from republican democracy that's not likely to reverse itself, given that we have a full generation now that's grown up accepting that trend as normal.

[RochesterRob]

37 minutes ago, John Adams said:

(Productive topic KRC. You should run for president.)

 

1. From the halls of Congress and the Executive needs to come leadership where elected officials get credit for working with those on the other side, and represent the constituents who didn't vote for them. Trump is ALL OF OUR president. Congress is our Congress. Hold elected officials accountable (at the ballot box, in social media) for demonizing the other side and also the people they represent, even if those people disagree with them. 

 

2. Elect people who respect and obey the rule of law. 

 

3. Ask your elected officials to focus on dinner table issues, as well as those dinner table issues that affect people in 30 years (spending and social security, I'm looking at you). 

 

4. Stop thinking in good vs evil. It's just dumb. Nothing is so simple. My D and R neighbors are not good or evil. They are people, with people problems. This idea that there's a darkness in the world and a hidden war going on is utter crap. To the extent there are a few underbellies, sure of course. But that's not the norm and it doesn't control the world, especially yours. This thing we do here at PPP of making the other side into a name and meme is unproductive, bad for America, and stupid. Yeah, I just called people calling people stupid, stupid. I get it! I'm an offender too. Color me hypocrite, color me human.  

 

5. "It can only be fixed with a constant turnover of the perpetual bureaucracy" says GG. There's the elected bureaucracy, and then there's the rest of the leviathan. I'm not sure term limits solve as much as people hope. You can end up with people who suck at their jobs or rise in populist waves. But I'm not against trying. The rest of the leviathan will always be there. So legislate the leviathan's rules well and enforce them. For example, if you create a FISA court that will be used by agents whose job it is to find things, create laws that make it hard for them to convince judges to allow for spying on Americans. 

 

6. Engage in a meaningful dialog about freedom vs not. If we create a FISA process (and others), we sacrifice freedom. People will die in horrible ways because we aren't watching as much as we could unfettered by laws. There will always be a tension between spying on citizens and preventing crime. It's OK to play tug-o-war about that line but neither side is wrong, except at the extremes. 

 

  2.  Elect people who respect and obey the rule of law.  

 

So much easier to say than to actually accomplish.  If we are going to attempt to remedy in this regard then it has to be addressed in the schools.  It only takes a single classroom session to teach kids to place a condom on a banana so the rest of the year should be free to teach civics.  Not the civics of one party is always right and one party is always wrong.  But the civics that says misconduct and specifically corruption has consequences.  By the time kids hit high school they often have half year electives that they can take.  Lets mandate that they take at least one half year civics course for EACH of the four years they are in high school so the dust is not too thick when they graduate.

[Nanker]

Relocate the headquarters of all the major federal agencies into widely distributed  locations across the country. There’s far too much concentration of power and (government) wealth in the District and its environs.  
 

It would take decades to do this, and very likely over time create regional tensions, however it might give the republic a bit more time. 

[Westside]

Burn DC to the ground and cover with salt.

 

Honestly, give power back to the states, back to the people. Term limits, no lifetime political jobs. Prosecute to fullest extent of the law anyone breaking it for personal gain. Get rid of lobbyists and big corporations in DC. Make every penny collected in taxes transparent. No more handing over billions to foreign countries just so it can be grafted back to politicians family's and friends.

[RochesterRob]

1 minute ago, Nanker said:

Relocate the headquarters of all the major federal agencies into widely distributed  locations across the country. There’s far too much concentration of power and (government) wealth in the District and its environs.  
 

It would take decades to do this, and very likely over time create regional tensions, however it might give the republic a bit more time. 

  A good idea but I wonder how much is negated by modern communications?

[3rdnlng]

5 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

I don't know, but when someone does, it'll be the Democrats' fault.

 

Seriously, though...I think the government's beyond fixing.  Either accept that we're going to be living in some sort of oligarchic aristocracy for the foreseeable future (at best - at worst, a dystopian Robespierrian fascist Republic with West Virginia playing the part of the Vendee), or take up arms against it.  But we're well into a generational trend away from republican democracy that's not likely to reverse itself, given that we have a full generation now that's grown up accepting that trend as normal.

This is my fear, that's why I'm for a more robust defense of our republic. Trying to solve our issues the same way as we always have isn't going to work. The slim chance that we get our republic back is worth knocking some heads and jailing some people. 

3 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  A good idea but I wonder how much is negated by modern communications?

Those communications can be transparent. It's the whispering over cocktails that we need to stop. 

[DC Tom]

21 minutes ago, Nanker said:

Relocate the headquarters of all the major federal agencies into widely distributed  locations across the country. There’s far too much concentration of power and (government) wealth in the District and its environs.  
 

It would take decades to do this, and very likely over time create regional tensions, however it might give the republic a bit more time. 

 

It's not nearly as concentrated as you think.  Even though where I work is headquartered in DC, most of the political power is distributed among a dozen different field offices.

 

In fact, the real problem is something of the opposite: the federal government's power is too distributed.  Not geographically, but administratively through the CFR.  That's the real "Deep State;" the SES and GS-14s+ who wield that regulatory power.

 

[John Adams]

40 minutes ago, KRC said:

 

Good post. I am going to focus on one of your points above. I absolutely agree. It should not be easy to spy on Americans. I know there is a downside in preventing mass shootings/terrorist attacks/etc. However, you should not be able to spy on American citizens without jumping through a crap-load of hoops. It needs to be far more difficult that it appears to be currently.

 

And that's just FISA. 

 

But there's always a trade between our freedoms and the ability of bad actors to use them against us. See Russia and our freedom of the press (not picking that as a hot button issue but we know it's real). See crazy people and our right to bear arms. And many more. 

 

Freedom is better than the alternative but freedom is not free of pain. 

[Tiberius]

26 minutes ago, westside2 said:

Burn DC to the ground and cover with salt.

 

Honestly, give power back to the states, back to the people. Term limits, no lifetime political jobs. Prosecute to fullest extent of the law anyone breaking it for personal gain. Get rid of lobbyists and big corporations in DC. Make every penny collected in taxes transparent. No more handing over billions to foreign countries just so it can be grafted back to politicians family's and friends.

This! 

[Foxx]

3 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

It's not nearly as concentrated as you think.  Even though where I work is headquartered in DC, most of the political power is distributed among a dozen different field offices.

 

In fact, the real problem is something of the opposite: the federal government's power is too distributed.  Not geographically, but administratively through the CFR.  That's the real "Deep State;" the SES and GS-14s+ who wield that regulatory power.

 

i've a feeling that the CFR is going to see some hard times in the days ahead.

[John Adams]

41 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

Seriously, though...I think the government's beyond fixing.  Either accept that we're going to be living in some sort of oligarchic aristocracy for the foreseeable future (at best - at worst, a dystopian Robespierrian fascist Republic with West Virginia playing the part of the Vendee), or take up arms against it.  But we're well into a generational trend away from republican democracy that's not likely to reverse itself, given that we have a full generation now that's grown up accepting that trend as normal.

 

Of our very few generations in this experiment, there have always been governments broken beyond fixing, especially when you think of how corrupt our government and election processes have been. We can and should be diligent fixing the things we can. 

 

Adding to my original list. 

 

X. Encourage Congress and Executives to stay in their lanes, especially encouraging Congress to push the Executive back into its, regardless of party. Via activism and voting. 

Edited December 12, 2019 by John Adams

[RochesterRob]

2 minutes ago, John Adams said:

 

Of our very few generations in this experiment, there have always been governments broken beyond fixing, especially when you think of how corrupt our government and election processes have been. We can and should be diligent fixing the things we can. 

 

Adding to my original list. 

 

X. Encourage Congress and Executives to stay in their lanes, especially the Congress to push the Executive back into its, regardless of party. Via activism and voting. 

  And with that statement the intellectual dishonesty rises to the surface as to the purpose of this thread.  Just trying to lead the ignorant masses into "Trump did something wrong and we need to make the fools in the USA see it" are we JA?

[John Adams]

2 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  And with that statement the intellectual dishonesty rises to the surface as to the purpose of this thread.  Just trying to lead the ignorant masses into "Trump did something wrong and we need to make the fools in the USA see it" are we JA?

 

Thanks for introducing your own bias into this. 

 

No. 

 

Obama and Bush were far guiltier of executive overreach than Trump. It's a branch of government issue, mostly stemming from Congress's failure to do its job in legislating and pushing back on the Executive. 

 

So please try to keep this productive.

Edited December 12, 2019 by John Adams

[Koko78]

2 hours ago, KRC said:

 

 

Without blaming a political party or any specific politician, how do we fix the systemic issues that have put us in the situation we are in right now?

 

Or, as a fun alternative:

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Koko78

[Bob in Mich]

I would say we need to get back to valuing honesty in our politicians.  Today, we back our politicians' comments not based on validity or truth, but based on D's or R's.  If we think of them as on our team, we excuse even the most blatant lies if it gets a political win.  This has led to our deep national divide and needs to change if that divide is to close.

 

The tricky part is that it will take condemnation of our own D or R to bring about this change.  Schiff will not change to please R's nor will Trump change to please the D's.  Having separate truths is at the root of many of our nation's troubles. 

 

Stop allowing false realities.  Push for the truth yourself.  Be honest yourself.  Avoid untruths in political discussions just to win points.  Get back to condemning dishonesty when apparent in your own politicians and if they persist, replace them.  

[RochesterRob]

Just now, John Adams said:

 

Thanks for introducing your own bias into this. 

 

No. 

 

Obama and Bush were far guiltier of executive overreach than Trump. 

  Then for the purpose of making your thread more universal the subjects of Bush, Obama, and whoever else should have been broached in your last statement.  It's never wise to leave things open to interpretation if there is a specific message that you are trying to get out.  

[RochesterRob]

5 minutes ago, Koko78 said:

 

Or, as a fun alternative:

 

  In all seriousness the death penalty should be an option and not the painless kind.  The gallows and the chair should be available for use in execution.  What is absolutely imperative is not to turn it into a public spectacle such as it was in revolutionary France.  Execute the convicted party in  front of a small group of witnesses and then make the announcement to the media that the sentence is now fulfilled.  Public executions would only breed blood lust which invites abuses of the system.

[John Adams]

11 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  Then for the purpose of making your thread more universal the subjects of Bush, Obama, and whoever else should have been broached in your last statement.  It's never wise to leave things open to interpretation if there is a specific message that you are trying to get out.  

 

Like where I said "regardless of party" and mentioned no Congress or Executive by number or name?

Edited December 12, 2019 by John Adams

[KRC]

17 minutes ago, Koko78 said:

 

Or, as a fun alternative:

 

 

I am a gun guy. I prefer the firing squad.

 

 

31 minutes ago, John Adams said:

 

And that's just FISA. 

 

But there's always a trade between our freedoms and the ability of bad actors to use them against us. See Russia and our freedom of the press (not picking that as a hot button issue but we know it's real). See crazy people and our right to bear arms. And many more. 

 

Freedom is better than the alternative but freedom is not free of pain. 

 

I completely agree. Freedom is not free of pain. It is better than the alternative.

 

 

19 minutes ago, John Adams said:

 

It's a branch of government issue, mostly stemming from Congress's failure to do its job in legislating and pushing back on the Executive. 

 

I agree again. The legislative branch has spent too much time abdicating their responsibilities to the executive and judicial branches. The executive has too quickly overreached because the legislative branch has failed to do their jobs and they want to get their agenda through. Get proper checks and balances in place and do your damn job.

Edited December 12, 2019 by KRC

[RochesterRob]

17 minutes ago, John Adams said:

 

Like where I said "regardless of party" and mentioned no Congress or Executive by number or name?

  Examples let people know where you stand and is the major reason that they are used to expand upon general concepts.  No harm in examples and in this case examples from both sides of the aisle create an air of impartiality. If you have taken any college level writing courses and made statements as you did the grader of your paper might write in the margins of your work "examples?" or "expand on your thoughts" or some similar statement.

Edited December 12, 2019 by RochesterRob

[Tiberius]

The Russians hacked into voting systems, machines and infrastructure, that can't be allowed to continue. If anyone thinks having the Russians weigh in on elections will make us better, I have a Trump Tower to sell you 

[Koko78]

1 minute ago, RochesterRob said:

  In all seriousness the death penalty should be an option and not the painless kind.  The gallows and the chair should be available for use in execution.  What is absolutely imperative is not to turn it into a public spectacle such as it was in revolutionary France.  Execute the convicted party in  front of a small group of witnesses and then make the announcement to the media that the sentence is now fulfilled.  Public executions would only breed blood lust which invites abuses of the system.

 

Public? No.

 

For example, if I were charged with using any means to end corruption at a particular bureaucratic institution (and, you know, disregarded my conscience/soul), I would likely call all employees into a meeting. At that meeting, I would call up selected people (in various capacities/ranks), that I had fairly solid evidence of corruption on. I would present that evidence to the crowd, and summarily execute them in front of the rest, hopefully splattering some gore on as many people as possible. I would then inform those assembled that this is the price they, and their families, would pay for further corrupt acts, before having them file out of the room, one at a time, past the dead bodies.

 

You can't change a bureaucratic/political culture with a few firings and rule changes, especially when it is damn near impossible to fire anyone.

 

Obviously the above example is horrible and over-the-top.

 

 

[RochesterRob]

2 minutes ago, Koko78 said:

 

Public? No.

 

For example, if I were charged with using any means to end corruption at a particular bureaucratic institution (and, you know, disregarded my conscience/soul), I would likely call all employees into a meeting. At that meeting, I would call up selected people (in various capacities/ranks), that I had fairly solid evidence of corruption on. I would present that evidence to the crowd, and summarily execute them in front of the rest, hopefully splattering some gore on as many people as possible. I would then inform those assembled that this is the price they, and their families, would pay for further corrupt acts, before having them file out of the room, one at a time, past the dead bodies.

 

You can't change a bureaucratic/political culture with a few firings and rule changes, especially when it is damn near impossible to fire anyone.

 

Obviously the above example is horrible and over-the-top.

 

 

  This is where we are at now in terms of your statement about firings being useless deterrents.  It's almost like for some an early retirement.  

 

5 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

The Russians hacked into voting systems, machines and infrastructure, that can't be allowed to continue. If anyone thinks having the Russians weigh in on elections will make us better, I have a Trump Tower to sell you 

  Your man Obama assured us prior to the 2016 election that literally altering votes at the town halls was impossible.  Are you saying that he is a mere mortal subject to poor judgement like the rest of us?  As to your last sentence that is projection by you plain and simple.  Let us all assume the fetal position in recognition of Obama being wrong.

[Tiberius]

10 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  This is where we are at now in terms of your statement about firings being useless deterrents.  It's almost like for some an early retirement.  

 

  Your man Obama assured us prior to the 2016 election that literally altering votes at the town halls was impossible.  Are you saying that he is a mere mortal subject to poor judgement like the rest of us?  As to your last sentence that is projection by you plain and simple.  Let us all assume the fetal position in recognition of Obama being wrong.

Yes, Obama is mortal. 

[Nanker]

49 minutes ago, Foxx said:

i've a feeling that the CFR is going to see some hard times in the days ahead.

There should be a thorough combing through them wrt penalties for some of the shenanigans that this FISA Scandal foisted upon our country. 

[RochesterRob]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

Yes, Obama is mortal. 

  I know that it pained you greatly to make that statement.  Have a cookie.