Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 11 hours ago, Virgil said: I feel like you could see it in his eyes that it killed him to slide so much. It was going against his better instincts, For Reals. But not him getting killed is the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyBillsFan Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 29 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: finn - I have reactions to both of these excellent comments. Ball control offense. That is clearly what the Bills are playing. They want to run, and they want an excellent short passing game. But I think that's just what they're running now, because it's at the core of good football. Good football is what McDermott is all about, and you can't have a good football team if you don't regularly control the football. It shows up in time of possession, it shows up in third down stats. If you control the ball you're always in the game, and McDermott wants always to be able to control the ball. But I think Daboll and McDermott will take anything that they can. They don't have great deep threats and they don't have a great offensive line, so they aren't going to focus on a big-time, explosive offense. As the protection improves, and when the next piece (a serious deep threat) arrives, the offense will open up. They know what they have in Allen, but just like the offense as a whole, the QB has to learn to run a ball control offense before they work seriously on his obvious abilities as a big-play thrower. In other words, all in good time. Allen is going to be throwing footballs in Buffalo for the next 15 years, and there's plenty of time for him to take advantage of all his skills. I've been saying all along next year will be his true break out year, and three years from now he will be a recognized star in the league. He's just too good. As for Bates, I actually have wondered about that. I don't think either Beane or McDermott worry about looking foolish. If Bates already is a starting caliber tackle, they look brilliant, not foolish, for having acquired an undrafted rookie who is a quality starter. Ford is unlikely to be a bust - there's nothing foolish about having the right side of your line be Ford and Bates for the next five years. McDermott's message is always clear - it's a competition, and the guys who perform the best play. I don't think they waited on Duke because they wanted to give Zay every chance. They waited on him because for some reasons that I don't know he wasn't ready. After all, they didn't wait on Bates - they didn't stick him on the practice squad. They just make decisions about the best 53. And Duke not being ready showed up yesterday. He had a procedure penalty. Multiple plays someone had to tell him where to go. Maybe he's just been slow learning all the complexity that they expect him to have. Good points and I would add that in spite of Gore being a warrior out there lugging the rock at 36, he & Yeldon make for one of the worst 1/2 RB combos in the NFL. You need more explosiveness in the backfield to truly run a ball control offense. What we're getting and what makes us uneasy is that the Bills are running a hybrid by necessity. They don't have the horses in the backfield to execute a potent game long rushing attack; Allen & his receivers are not yet at the point where they can be explosive for the whole game; and the O-line is good but not great at either. So we get moments in a game where they run the ball well or execute a fast paced, explosive attacking passing offense. But both are short lived, hence our frustration. My guess is that as the season goes on they'll get better at both and it will be interesting to see what they morph into. But the bottom line is that the O still needs a few upgrades to be great as either a ball control or attacking unit. That should come in 2020. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsfan1972 Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 12 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said: right. i'm not satisfied either I just don't consistently bring up all the negatives. seems like crappy way to try and enjoy a good start. Yes the positives.... 1. A Win & 4-1 2. Allen is progressing (& yes I don't get caught up in college & drafts. All I want is for a top 7 pick to be a great player). 18 years without a legitimate QB (top half of the league) is a long time. 3. Defense is very good 4. Wanted to see the #1 receiver in the CFL in 2018 get a shot and produce, which he did. 5. Really like Brown too 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreboding Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 Fun read! How much do you love John Brown?? It is so thrilling to have a gm and a coach with a plan. You can trust them. They won't always be perfect but they will not fail because of stubborn pride. We don't have many superstars, instead, we got a ton of hard-working, legit, NFL caliber players. Each week there will new stars because they all play hard together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted October 7, 2019 Author Share Posted October 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said: Good review.... A few observations of my own. 1. I am a believer in this D, but can not play for 17-13 games, week after week. Bills got away with an obvious facemask that resulted in a missed fg. A TD called back too and they got other breaks, no if ands or buts. Tennessee receivers had drops too, reminiscent of Bills that I often complain needing to make that tough catch. At least 2-3 3rd & 3-5's where the receiver dropped a ball (albeit good D). 2. The int was on Yeldon, as JA is rolling that direction under pressure and he is running that way. You don't just stop. The slow motion replay posted conclusive imo. 3. Separation by receivers is still an issue. 4. Duke is a big body, which is exactly what is needed. The TD was so open and an easy play that should be there multiple times a game. Yes only 4 catches, but knew they were throwing to him and he was going to catch it. 5. Sorry but this team needs to score more and play calling still suspect. Can't take penalties on 3rd & 2 and create 3rd & 7. Never seems to be a call those yardages to make a first down. Usually JA needs to break containment or improvise. 6. Again 3rd quarter malaise. A couple of points. First, since people always say this stuff, I'll always respond. There are very few receivers who regularly get separation. Most of the players in the league who get open get open because they are running the route that attacks the weakness in the defense. Any average NFL receiver gets open when he's in the right route, and that's how offenses attack defenses. Teams are lucky if they have one guy who can regularly beat defenders one on one. I doubt any teams have two. You actually prove my point. You say separation is an issue and then you say Duke was "so open." Duke got that separation because the defense left is defender one on one, and in the middle of the field that's impossible to defender. The defender has to guess to have a chance. Any of the Bills' receivers would have gotten open on that route. Allen complete something around 70% of his passes. He didn't do that throwing the ball into tight windows. He was throwing to guys who were open. That's separation, and what the Bills are getting is about as much as you can expect in the NFL. Finally, as I said, I have process-itis. Part of the disease is that you understand that things go wrong on every play. Penalties called, penalties not called. Missed blocks or tackles. And things go wrong over the course of the game. Momentum shifts. There are ups and downs, ebbs and flows. Yes, it's important to identify them and work to correct those things that are correctable. but you're going to have those things in every game. There are no perfect games. That's why I rarely get into discussions about play calling. The OC calls 70 plays a game; there's no way he's going to call the best play 70 times in a row. It just doesn't happen. Some of the success of a play call depends on what the defense called. So when people complain about this play call or that play ball having been bad, I just move on. And it's the same with penalties. It's easy to say "can't take penalties on 3rd and 2." Do you think the coaches and players don't know that? But this is 11 men each trying to several things perfectly in two or three seconds, while 11 other men try to stop them from doing it. Mistakes are going to happen in an environment like that. What do you want them to do to, only take penalties on 3rd and 22? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stank_Nasty Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 5 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said: Yes the positives.... 1. A Win & 4-1 2. Allen is progressing (& yes I don't get caught up in college & drafts. All I want is for a top 7 pick to be a great player). 18 years without a legitimate QB (top half of the league) is a long time. 3. Defense is very good 4. Wanted to see the #1 receiver in the CFL in 2018 get a shot and produce, which he did. 5. Really like Brown too alrighty then! lol... also. would the jets be 0-4 with darnold and Moseley on the field? we played them pre-injury. that isn't the same jets team now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 10 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said: I like to be entertained, so yes I want 28+ points from the Offense on a regular basis. The Bills have beaten 0-4 Jets, 0-5 Bengals & two win teams NYG & Tennessee. I'm happy with the record, just not a fan that is satisfied with the offense & lack of scoring. To that point, though: when the Bills beat the Jets, they had Sam Darnold at QB and CJ Mosely at MLB, and were arguably a much more competitive team than any game since. They have also lost to the Browns (with a burr under their saddle after screwing the pooch week 1), NE, and the Iggles who are probably not as bad as their 3-2 record suggests and are etting to prove that. It's not gonna get better for the Jets either with Dallas then NE up next. And it kills me to say something exculpatory about 1) the Jets 2) an Adam Gase coached team, so please don't make me do it again. The point is, the schedule for most teams seldom distributes degree of difficulty evenly so just as it isn't necessarily too impressive to be high in the win total early, it doesn't necessarily predict a team's ultimate quality to be low in the win column. Key injuries and the quality of initial opponents can have a disproportionate impact. I mean, whoop de whoodle whoo, NE is 5-0 having whumped on the tanking Dolphins, Darnold- and Mosely-less Jets, and the Redskins and scraped by the Bills on the strength of a blocked punt, 4 INTs, and an arguably headhunting hit to knock out the starting QB. NE is possibly not as good as their 5-0 record would lead one to believe. Until the Bengals bungled one to the AZ Angry Birds I would have argued maybe the Bengals weren't as bad as their 0-5 record would lead one to suspect since they had a pretty hard schedule. Now I doubt. I don't GAF about the "lack of scoring". The only thing that concerns me is whether or not Allen truly internalizes the lesson that as his turnovers go, so goes the team. Take what the D gives you and be smart with your body, Boy! Since usually we are moving the ball when he gets careless, if the carelessness gets roped in I believe the scoring will go up. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted October 7, 2019 Author Share Posted October 7, 2019 15 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: It was going against his better instincts, For Reals. But not him getting killed is the point. Right. When he got knocked out of the Pats game, did ANYONE think it was worth that risk to get the first down? The smart play is to avoid the hit every time. Every time. There is on exception, and that is if the play is your last play in the game, and you need the play to win the game. Then you go for the end zone. Other than that, get down, live for another play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsfan1972 Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: A couple of points. First, since people always say this stuff, I'll always respond. There are very few receivers who regularly get separation. Most of the players in the league who get open get open because they are running the route that attacks the weakness in the defense. Any average NFL receiver gets open when he's in the right route, and that's how offenses attack defenses. Teams are lucky if they have one guy who can regularly beat defenders one on one. I doubt any teams have two. You actually prove my point. You say separation is an issue and then you say Duke was "so open." Duke got that separation because the defense left is defender one on one, and in the middle of the field that's impossible to defender. The defender has to guess to have a chance. Any of the Bills' receivers would have gotten open on that route. Allen complete something around 70% of his passes. He didn't do that throwing the ball into tight windows. He was throwing to guys who were open. That's separation, and what the Bills are getting is about as much as you can expect in the NFL. Finally, as I said, I have process-itis. Part of the disease is that you understand that things go wrong on every play. Penalties called, penalties not called. Missed blocks or tackles. And things go wrong over the course of the game. Momentum shifts. There are ups and downs, ebbs and flows. Yes, it's important to identify them and work to correct those things that are correctable. but you're going to have those things in every game. There are no perfect games. That's why I rarely get into discussions about play calling. The OC calls 70 plays a game; there's no way he's going to call the best play 70 times in a row. It just doesn't happen. Some of the success of a play call depends on what the defense called. So when people complain about this play call or that play ball having been bad, I just move on. And it's the same with penalties. It's easy to say "can't take penalties on 3rd and 2." Do you think the coaches and players don't know that? But this is 11 men each trying to several things perfectly in two or three seconds, while 11 other men try to stop them from doing it. Mistakes are going to happen in an environment like that. What do you want them to do to, only take penalties on 3rd and 22? Absolutely right. There is separation and then there is good coaching to create those seams. Not seeing those from Daboll. Screens seldom called & not well executed when they are. Good on shovel passes, and maybe need more like that (or swing passes). The knock on Duke is he isn't fast, but he is a big target and sure handed. The TD pass was a great call I saw as soon as he lined up. Should be used more often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inthebuff Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 (edited) Quote 7. The final drive to run the clock and close out the game was excellent. Some might say that it was garbage time yards for Gore, but it was anything but that. The Titans were down only one score and desperately needed the ball for one more shot to tie the game. The offensive line took over when the Bills needed first downs, and Gore did the rest. From Peter King (FMIA) Quote i. Frank Gore, closer. Trying to hold a 14-7 lead with three minutes left at Tennessee, from the Buffalo 39, Gore ran for 11 and then 19 and then four and then three, causing the Titans to bleed their final two timeouts This is the thing of beauty that many miss. We pounded the rock when we needed to to finish the game. Again, the game was not a thing of beauty as two teams basically shut each other down, but the outcome was and is the most important thing. I'm with you, Shaw, in that I like and trust the process, too. And I would rather have us win in this fashion than to have a high powered offense that puts up 40 and loses by 2 touchdowns (I'm speaking about the Rams here). The injuries are troubling and the bye is coming at the right time for the team. And one more thing...ya gotta love the Duke story and the game that he played. Edited October 7, 2019 by inthebuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 8 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: You actually prove my point. You say separation is an issue and then you say Duke was "so open." Duke got that separation because the defense left is defender one on one, and in the middle of the field that's impossible to defender. The defender has to guess to have a chance. Any of the Bills' receivers would have gotten open on that route. Allen complete something around 70% of his passes. He didn't do that throwing the ball into tight windows. He was throwing to guys who were open. That's separation, and what the Bills are getting is about as much as you can expect in the NFL. To this point, in another thread I put up screenshots of Allen's INTs vs the Pats. On 2 of the 3, you can see guys who are freakin' college open, either by scheme or accident (defender slipped). The message has got to be: throw to the open guy, Josh. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaattMaann Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 12 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said: Great post. I'm starting to come around to what McD has been preaching. And yes, it applies to him and the coaching staff. Better game management, aggressive coaching and playing to win, not just protect a lead. Good stuff. This was a game the Bills had to win since it will undoubtedly factor into late season playoff scenarios and seeds. The Bills took care of business. We needed this early bye to heal up. I hope the team can get and stay healthy during the longer post bye. Yes, this is a different team than years past. Unless its going into halftime, then we just sit on our thumbs... Seriously. 45 seconds, one of the strongest arms in the league, a good kicker and 3 TOs and we decide to just go into halftime??? I don't care that we took a penalty to start that drive, its 5 yards, that shouldnt dictate or change the desire to go get a FG right before half.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted October 7, 2019 Author Share Posted October 7, 2019 13 minutes ago, PaattMaann said: Unless its going into halftime, then we just sit on our thumbs... Seriously. 45 seconds, one of the strongest arms in the league, a good kicker and 3 TOs and we decide to just go into halftime??? I don't care that we took a penalty to start that drive, its 5 yards, that shouldnt dictate or change the desire to go get a FG right before half.... Close game, you don't wan't to jeopardize a half time lead, you're getting the ball to open the third, and you don't completely trust your young QB. Two years from now, it will be different. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaattMaann Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 8 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: Close game, you don't wan't to jeopardize a half time lead, you're getting the ball to open the third, and you don't completely trust your young QB. Two years from now, it will be different. Nope, hate that. We are good enough to move the ball 30-40 yards to get into FG range. Thats loser mentality. (not you, from coach McD) And for whats its worth I think they were prepared to push the ball down the field but McKenzie screwed up and got the penalty, and then the first play screen didnt go anywhere so they just licked their wounds and left the field. Call the TO, go for a downfield pass and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted October 7, 2019 Author Share Posted October 7, 2019 8 minutes ago, PaattMaann said: Nope, hate that. We are good enough to move the ball 30-40 yards to get into FG range. Thats loser mentality. (not you, from coach McD) And for whats its worth I think they were prepared to push the ball down the field but McKenzie screwed up and got the penalty, and then the first play screen didnt go anywhere so they just licked their wounds and left the field. Call the TO, go for a downfield pass and see what happens. I know that's what you want, but it isnt smart football. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsfan1972 Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, PaattMaann said: Nope, hate that. We are good enough to move the ball 30-40 yards to get into FG range. Thats loser mentality. (not you, from coach McD) And for whats its worth I think they were prepared to push the ball down the field but McKenzie screwed up and got the penalty, and then the first play screen didnt go anywhere so they just licked their wounds and left the field. Call the TO, go for a downfield pass and see what happens. This is the Bills MO & a lot of fans fall for it. 19 years of a loser mentality that no one can make a mistake. Would have neutered Favre, Rodgers, Elway, Brees, Mahomes, Watson & others with this coaching staff. Heck I was awfully proud of the coaching staff for having not wasted a timeout the first half. May have been a first!!!!? Edited October 7, 2019 by Billsfan1972 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaattMaann Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 9 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: I know that's what you want, but it isnt smart football. We disagree on what smart football is...Josh Allen is more than good enough to be asked to do what even average QBs can do. We would ask him to do it if the game was on the line in the 4th quarter, he can be asked to do it with 40 seconds left in a half. Smart football is using extra possession to score points. The risk is MINIMAL with where we had the ball, how much time we had left and TOs, how many TOs the titans had left and with our stellar defense smothering the titans offense all first half. Its not just what I want, its what other teams regularly do. And spare me the "we arent there yet", yes we are. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: Close game, you don't wan't to jeopardize a half time lead, you're getting the ball to open the third, and you don't completely trust your young QB. Two years from now, it will be different. Not to mention they had just dodged a bullet on a Tennessee drive and they are playing against a very good defense. It was the right decision 30 minutes ago, PaattMaann said: Nope, hate that. We are good enough to move the ball 30-40 yards to get into FG range. Thats loser mentality. (not you, from coach McD) And for whats its worth I think they were prepared to push the ball down the field but McKenzie screwed up and got the penalty, and then the first play screen didnt go anywhere so they just licked their wounds and left the field. Call the TO, go for a downfield pass and see what happens. 15 minutes ago, PaattMaann said: We disagree on what smart football is...Josh Allen is more than good enough to be asked to do what even average QBs can do. We would ask him to do it if the game was on the line in the 4th quarter, he can be asked to do it with 40 seconds left in a half. Smart football is using extra possession to score points. The risk is MINIMAL with where we had the ball, how much time we had left and TOs, how many TOs the titans had left and with our stellar defense smothering the titans offense all first half. Its not just what I want, its what other teams regularly do. And spare me the "we arent there yet", yes we are. There are times to be aggressive and times not to be aggressive. That was not the time to be aggressive Edited October 7, 2019 by billsfan1959 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaattMaann Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 34 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said: Not to mention they had just dodged a bullet on a Tennessee drive and they are playing against a very good defense. It was the right decision There are times to be aggressive and times not to be aggressive. That was not the time to be aggressive Pleas explain why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 10 minutes ago, PaattMaann said: Pleas explain why? I thought it was explained pretty well above. It was a close game, Tennessee has a very good defense and it was difficult to move the ball for large chunks of yardage, the Bills game plan was a short passing game and had NOT taken any downfield shots at all, Allen has had turnover issues in every game this year and was coming off a 4 turnover performance - pretty much on plays he was trying to go downfield, they were getting the ball first in the 2nd half, and they had just dodged a score and an emotional lift on the part of the Titans - and their defense was playing lights out. IMO, it was not the time to try to take shots down the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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