Now Clayton (per AZ board) says Henry trade will

[VABills]

That analogy doesn't work for me. That analogy is like comparing Travis to Willis, and there is no comparison. Willis is much, much better, because Willis does virtually everything well, and Travis has trouble doing certain things well. But I wasn't and have never compared Travis favorably to Willis (since seeing McGahee in action of course). Willis is going to be or already is great. Travis has been good and often very good running the ball.

 

What I was saying is that you guys are ignoring the two MOST important factors (out of, say, 10), in a running back, being able to run for yards and scoring touchdowns, in favor of perhaps the 3rd and 5th and 12th and 1876th most important factors in a running back that make him a complete running back (like not fumbling, and pass blocking, and not being smart off the field, and how to conduct yourself at a gas station)

295152[/snapback]

But it is a more fair analogy. For some teams Worrell might be better then the closer they got. Worrell wants to be a closer, period. On a good team, Worrell doesn't bring enough to the table to be a closer, just missing too much, and with his weaknesses he doesn't help his team win. He is better then a lot of guys at closer, but he isn't great has a lot of problems in his game, and is too one dimensional.

 

Same thing goes for Travis, he does one thing well, running to a hole as quickly as possible. His ability to throw a curve, change-up, split finger, etc... is very limited and therefore tends to fail when he tries. He could be used on the Yankees as a set-up guy but his pride and wanting to be called the "starting" closer limits his worth (yeah I know Worrell plays for the Phillies). But stay with me.

 

So if he were on the Yankees they would get rid of him because he is basically worhless if he won't play setup and demands to be a closer even if Rivera is heads and shoulders above him in abaility.

[GG]

Did you "select" the games Willis played great?  As I recall, and had posted when it happened, the Bills almost always came out passing and not running. [snip]

 

Mostly looked at the early losses to see what the issue was and then select wins during the streak. Would you consider that Bills went to a more pass oriented attack with Willis on the field, because their offensive options greatly expanded?

 

NOT that I think Willis wasn't a huge factor, because I do. I think he is great, and better than Travis in every way. And I hope IF Travis is on the Bills this year that he never gets a carry the entire season, because that means Willis is in there. But IMO, although Willis was the single biggest difference on offense (except arguably Jim McNally and MM's offense) the line, Evans, the plays, the play-calling, the field position, the score, all played a significant part, and just below the addition of Willis.

 

And this is the point I made when you posted the poll last year. You asked for the main catalyst for the offense to get its act together, and I cannot pinpoint a more definite source than Willis. All the other factors certainly contributed, but none to the same impact that Willis had.

 

I would also say, that if you had a healthy Travis in there this year, WITH all the other factors (the coaching, Evans, the line, the defense, the ST) and no Willis, the results would have been much closer to what they actually were compared to if you just stuck Willis in place of Henry on the 2003 team. What say you to that? 

295143[/snapback]

 

Yeah ok, let's play alternate universe. I can then guess that Bills may even have made the playoffs, because Travis may not have pulled the crap he did in the first 4 games. But that is not the point of this debate.

 

I thought that we're trying to reason out 1) whether Henry has tangible trade value and 2) whether Willis was the reason for the offensive resurgence.

 

1) The market has basically spoken on Henry's trade value, where TD is left with only one reluctant suitor.

2) Willis was the key to the turnaround.

 

I reason that Henry's stupidity is why the above numbers add up. Henry's strengths and weaknesses are known by GMs around the league. Teams with better starting RBs also drafted future RBs in first round in 2003. Each of those better starters fought for and retained their starting job. Henry sulked and laid a turd on the field, that his demotion was academic by week five. That further dropped his marketability.

 

For all the crap that Clarett gets for quitting, where would you put Henry? I don't want to hear the injury excuse, because what I heard was that he was medically cleared to play shortly after mid-season. All these things add up in the eyes of professionals, and that is why Jordan, whose stats pale in contrast to Henry, got a huge deal in Oakland. Crenell, who faced Henry twice/yr, didn't even consider the guy, SF decided to extend Barlow, Tampa elected to stay with Pittman (oops) & Garner, etc, etc, etc.

 

Let's be hopeful that Denny Green continues to be Denny Green, and we can still get a trade done.

[Kelly the Dog]

But it is a more fair analogy.  For some teams Worrell might be better then the closer they got.  Worrell wants to be a closer, period.  On a good team, Worrell doesn't bring enough to the table to be a closer, just missing too much, and with his weaknesses he doesn't help his team win.  He is better then a lot of guys at closer, but he isn't great has a lot of problems in his game, and is too one dimensional. 

 

Same thing goes for Travis, he does one thing well, running to a hole as quickly as possible.  His ability to throw a curve, change-up, split finger, etc... is very limited and therefore tends to fail when he tries.  He could be used on the Yankees as a set-up guy but his pride and wanting to be called the "starting" closer limits his worth (yeah I know Worrell plays for the Phillies).  But stay with me. 

 

So if he were on the Yankees they would get rid of him because he is basically worhless if he won't play setup and demands to be a closer even if Rivera is heads and shoulders above him in abaility.

295157[/snapback]

When you are the GM of a football or a baseball team, you try to get a player, as many players as you can to help your team win. If you have a championship caliber team, but your running back is terrible, like, say, the Pats in 2003, you go out and get a RB because it makes your team better. And you get any player you can that is better than the player you have. If the Pats were in the position that they were in last year, and Travis Henry was available and Corey Dillon wasn't, there is a good chance IMO they would have shown interest in him because it would have made their team better. They may not have pulled the trigger for a #2 but with the draft choices they had last year, that would not have been out of the question for them. Hell, they took and won the Super Bowl by taking Antowain Smith from us, who Travis Henry had just beaten out, and isn't any more multi-dimensional than Travis is, and rode him to a SB win.

[Ramius]

He scores TDs in large numbers, too, which is the object of the game. That is like saying "other than throwing a ton of strikes and having a great ERA, this pitcher is just bad and we should get rid of him." And try not to say "he doesn't win" because it is a team game and with your analogy, we should dump the entire team, especially Takeo Spikes, because none of them "win".

 

To further the pitcher analogy, it is safe to say that Henry is like a pitcher who throws a ton of strikes and has a great ERA but commits way too many errors, can't field all that well, doesn't strike out enough batters, and sometimes gives up untimely homeruns which keeps him just a very good or good player from being a great player, which people who quote his strike throwing and ERA often wrongly state that he is.

295107[/snapback]

 

and TH would be a pitcher who slipped off the mound once per game...or maybe tripped over the foul line...hes got a knack for those things too...

[MadBuffaloDisease]

Travis is poor in blitz-pickups I'll admit. But while he's not a "gifted" receiver, he's caught his fair share of passes. And his fumbling problems have improved since 2002, to the point that he didn't fumble once in 94 carries last year. As I've said before, outside of blitz pickups, he's proven to be a MUCH better RB than Lamont Jordan, and look what HE got from the Raiders. It just so happens that this is a bad year for trading RB's.

[Mark VI]

Rather than debate the on field positives and negatives ( which have all been listed above ), it's probably safe to say the Bills and Henry will soon part ways. Henry has basically burned his bridge in Buffalo, with some very unflattering comments to the local press. Unfortunately, few suitors outside of the Cardinals exist.

 

I see Arizona insists Henry is still looking for an extension which may be the holdup in the supposed trade. Henry told the Buffalo News it's not true. Is the agent playing the press ?

 

I'd be surprised to see him back. Henry doesn't have any leverage but he's too dumb and stubborn to know that. The distraction isn't worth it.

[Stussy109]

Amazing.... Cardinal fans to exist.

 

Watch for TH to be a major mistake for the Cards.  They need him, and they will bow to TD's request to switch seconds.  He will be a bust on that sorry team.

 

Hope they won't be reading this.

295065[/snapback]

 

I say Henry runs for 1400 yards, 11td's if traded, just my opinion. A motivated man is a scary man.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

I say Henry runs for 1400 yards, 11td's if traded, just my opinion.  A motivated man is a scary man.

If he stays healthy, or at least as healthy as he was in 2002 and 2003, he'll easily surpass 1,500 yards and 14 TD's, in that weak division. Maybe the Bills should demand a conditional draft pick next year?

[BuckeyeBill]

To further the pitcher analogy, it is safe to say that Henry is like a pitcher who throws a ton of strikes and has a great ERA but commits way too many errors, can't field all that well, doesn't strike out enough batters, and sometimes gives up untimely homeruns which keeps him just a very good or good player from being a great player, which people who quote his strike throwing and ERA often wrongly state that he is.

295107[/snapback]

 

Great analogy. I never thought about it that way, but I think you are right on.

[34-78-83]

Travis is poor in blitz-pickups I'll admit.  But while he's not a "gifted" receiver, he's caught his fair share of passes.  And his fumbling problems have improved since 2002, to the point that he didn't fumble once in 94 carries last year.  As I've said before, outside of blitz pickups, he's proven to be a MUCH better RB than Lamont Jordan, and look what HE got from the Raiders.  It just so happens that this is a bad year for trading RB's.

295168[/snapback]

 

This best represents what I feel has slipped by the eyes of the Henry detractors. While spending all that time telling us about his many flaws and how terrible he is, they failed to see him actually become a good pass receiver (right down to the play he got injured on last year) and improve his fumble numbers greatly over the past 2 seasons. As stated, no, he does not compare to Willis in his completeness, but his improvements have been missed.

[ndirish1978]

i find it interesting that the cards are talking about taking Baas and Jones in the 2nd. im gonna enjoy when we swap 2nd rounders and wind up getting one of those two with their old pick.

[ndirish1978]

Also, John Clayton is about as reliable as TH picking up a linebacker blitz. I put as much confidence in his information as in bledsoe's ability to ressurect his career.

[1billsfan]

If he stays healthy, or at least as healthy as he was in 2002 and 2003, he'll easily surpass 1,500 yards and 14 TD's, in that weak division.  Maybe the Bills should demand a conditional draft pick next year?

295188[/snapback]

 

Which is why TD will not make like Marvin Lewis and just give away a player, like Travis Henry, the way that Cory Dillon was given to the Patriots for a 2nd. Henry may not be as good as Dillon, but Dillon was widely considered a "shot" player and Lewis blinked. Keep Henry until there's a fair trade. If not, he'll be our #2 back.

[Bill from NYC]

>>>I would also say, that if you had a healthy Travis in there this year, WITH all the other factors (the coaching, Evans, the line, the defense, the ST) and no Willis, the results would have been much closer to what they actually were compared to if you just stuck Willis in place of Henry on the 2003 team. What say you to that?<<<

 

I would say that nothing could be farther from the truth. It is hard for me to believe that you are putting this forth in a serious manner.

Henry is a career loser. Look at his w/l record. Willis is superior in each and every phase of their position. Why do you think that TD drafted Willis after TH had the big stats? Because there was no need? Because Travis is such a good RB?

Please. Travis is a dog. He is a flea bitten dog to boot, and this is why we as Bills fans are hoping to trade him for an injured under acheiver.

[1billsfan]

>>>I would also say, that if you had a healthy Travis in there this year, WITH all the other factors (the coaching, Evans, the line, the defense, the ST) and no Willis, the results would have been much closer to what they actually were compared to if you just stuck Willis in place of Henry on the 2003 team. What say you to that?<<<

 

I would say that nothing could be farther from the truth. It is hard for me to believe that you are putting this forth in a serious manner.

Henry is a career loser. Look at his w/l record. Willis is superior in each and every phase of their position. Why do you think that TD drafted Willis after TH had the big stats? Because there was no need? Because Travis is such a good RB?

Please. Travis is a dog. He is a flea bitten dog to boot, and this is why we as Bills fans are hoping to trade him for an injured under acheiver.

295525[/snapback]

 

Underacheiver? The guy was a 2nd round pick that few here had ever even heard of when the Bills selected him! He then proceeds to gain over 1,300 yards rushing behind an abysmal offensive line in 2002 and 2003. I really doubt you understand the term.

 

Also, your point that Travis Henry is not as good as Willis McGahee is redundant. We know that. He's nowhere near the back that Willis is. Willis is a star runningback who would fetch a high 1st round pick if he were shopped around. I don't get why you are trying to compare the two runningbacks here, this is not being disputed.

 

We shall see Travis' worth after the draft, and I can't wait to dig this one up for a good ol' fashion "I told you so" post.

[C.Biscuit97]

>>>I would also say, that if you had a healthy Travis in there this year, WITH all the other factors (the coaching, Evans, the line, the defense, the ST) and no Willis, the results would have been much closer to what they actually were compared to if you just stuck Willis in place of Henry on the 2003 team. What say you to that?<<<

 

I would say that nothing could be farther from the truth. It is hard for me to believe that you are putting this forth in a serious manner.

Henry is a career loser. Look at his w/l record. Willis is superior in each and every phase of their position. Why do you think that TD drafted Willis after TH had the big stats? Because there was no need? Because Travis is such a good RB?

Please. Travis is a dog. He is a flea bitten dog to boot, and this is why we as Bills fans are hoping to trade him for an injured under acheiver.

295525[/snapback]

 

 

No offense but that is an absurd statement. In football, it takes an entire team to win. The Bills of 2004 were a more complete and better football team than in 2002 and 2003. I believe that a porous defense had more to do with an 8- 8 record in 2002 than the guy wh o ran for 1400 yards. As for 2003, a limited offense with no real playmakers and a qb who had the worse season of his career as had more impact that Henry who arguably was the MVP of the team. Asw much as I love Bills fans, these shots at Henry are kinda of disgusting. A flea-bitten dog? Come on, does he really deserve that? He grew up a Bills fan and achieved his dream and was a very productive player. Is Willis a better player? It remains to be seen but he definitely has the potential. But to discount everything Travis did is just flat out stupid. Check the stats, in 2002 and 2003 had a higher rushing average and more catches. Now while he does have his flaws, he still was a big part of his team and attacks on his intelligence and appearance is just idiotic. Bills fans should be better than that.

[KRT88]

No way do we trade Henry staight up for Shelton. Clayton is smokin grass on this one. Shelton is a bust while Henry has proven NFL skills. TD will tell Green to take a hike if a player swap is the only way he trades Shelton. We can then wait for them to cut him June 1st.

295072[/snapback]

 

 

Why no way?

 

If no one wants Henry but them you say we just keep him? What the benefit in that? If they won't swap picks, they won't swap picks. Both teams need to make the deal otherwise everyone loses when the players get released.

 

We need a LT, I say make the deal and cut Teague. No point in paying a guy 4 million to be average center. We could pay Tucker to be that.

[Bob in SC]

Travis Henry ran for 1438 and 1356 yards in the two years before the 2004 season. Bad skills???? That's your opinion, and it's flat out wrong. I expect either the 2nd round swap with the Cards or a 2nd round pick in this years or the 2006 draft. We'll see.

295094[/snapback]

 

Have to agree. Henry is a better than average RB with a proven record. Don't give him away, TD. We could end up with the best back-up RB in the NFL - not a bad situation with WM, who no one can guarantee (like any RB) that he can make it through the season unhurt. This is not Pucillo we are talking about here. He is valuable, for trade-bait or back up.

[Bob in SC]

No offense but that is an absurd statement.  In football, it takes an entire team to win.  The Bills of 2004 were a more complete and better football team than in 2002 and 2003.  I believe that a porous defense had more to do with an 8- 8 record in 2002 than the guy wh o ran for 1400 yards.  As for 2003, a limited offense with no real playmakers and a qb who had the worse season of his career as had more impact that Henry who arguably was the MVP of the team.  Asw much as I love Bills fans, these shots at Henry are kinda of disgusting.  A flea-bitten dog?  Come on, does he really deserve that? He grew up a Bills fan and achieved his dream and was a very productive player.  Is Willis a better player?  It remains to be seen but he definitely has the potential.  But to discount everything Travis did is just flat out stupid.  Check the stats, in 2002 and 2003 had a higher rushing average and more catches.  Now while he does have his flaws, he still was a big part of his team and attacks on his intelligence and appearance is just idiotic.  Bills fans should be better than that. 

295662[/snapback]

 

Thank you for injecting a bit of rationality into this discussion. Travis is not without his flaws, we all know that, but let's get serious. How many RB's in the NFL have two consecutive seasons like he had while running behind a line like we had. Then he got hurt -so? Give him some credit. He is gifted and a gutsy guy; not some POS. If he goes to the Cards, what is the likelihood we can sign anyone better (or as good) for '05 for his salary?

[Britbillsfan]

Probably will get the deal done with a conditional pick/swap of picks clause for next year. That way each side will know that they have got a solid deal.