The Book is Closed on the Mahomes Trade

[JohnC]

24 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

You certainly  make fine arguments for your case. No matter the topic.
Even Bill must take some pleasure as to how you described his thinking as outlier.
 

Well done to both of you for quality discourse !

i can see both points rather clearly and respect that .

One of us is a recalcitrant. Which one? It depends on one's perspective. ?

[BADOLBILZ]

34 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

It’s not a pop warner philosophy.

 

Its the philosophy I learned playing division 1 football and scouting and coaching

 

The NFL is all about coaching and health, a backup QB just won the SB.

 

Building the best roster from the ground up so it can win with any QB. Everyone wants a franchise QB but they don’t grow on trees

 

I don't care if you were a former Penn State LB and won SB's as a player and became GM of the Detroit Lions..........if you make dumb personnel decisions like passing on QB's and end up without one and are on the outside looking in at contenders you WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.  Whether you want to pretend it's a moot point because that guy wasn't at the top of your board or not.   That's a bad coach/GM's fantasy.   "There is nothing we can do now about all my bad decisions in the past........so I vote we just put those behind us and I will try harder this time.   Continuity......right?"     Your board being wrong is not an excuse.?

 

Capiche?

 

As for your other assertion that the goal is to build a team that can win without a QB..............again, no.     It's not about one-off's.    It's about being in consistent contention for and winning multiple SB's over a long period of time.    You don't achieve that in the 21st century without a franchise QB because you can't keep deep rosters together.   Even coaches like John Gruden and Brian Billick didn't get lifetime contracts for taking woeful franchises to one-time SB victories.   You want to last in the NFL you NEED a franchise QB.    

 

[John from Riverside]

54 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

It’s not a pop warner philosophy.

 

Its the philosophy I learned playing division 1 football and scouting and coaching

 

The NFL is all about coaching and staying healthy as a team., a backup QB just won the SB because his team was very well built

 

Building the best roster from the ground up so it can win with any QB is the recipe for success . Everyone wants a franchise QB but they don’t grow on trees

I just wanna point out that Pop Warner (or Junior All American Football where I coached kids among other places) is not truly "next man up"

If your starters get held out by their parents or god forbid actually get hurt you are gonna struggle now matter how well you coach fundamentals.....your best players play and the kids that are not as talented get sprinkled in to get their plays and you cover them up as best you can because all the kids deserve to play if they show up for practice.

 

I thought that our bills coaching staff got a lot out of a little last year when they started sending off our core players for draft picks.....I dont know if people understand what a great job that was by McDermott to even have us in a POSITION to be able to make the playoffs.

 

McDermott is gonna lean on his defense this year.

[Buffalo716]

14 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I don't care if you were a former Penn State LB and won SB's as a player and became GM of the Detroit Lions..........if you make dumb personnel decisions like passing on QB's and end up without one and are on the outside looking in at contenders you WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.  Whether you want to pretend it's a moot point because that guy wasn't at the top of your board or not.   That's a bad coach/GM's fantasy.   "There is nothing we can do now about all my bad decisions in the past........so I vote we just put those behind us and I will try harder this time.   Continuity......right?"     Your board being wrong is not an excuse.?

 

Capiche?

 

As for your other assertion that the goal is to build a team that can win without a QB..............again, no.     It's not about one-off's.    It's about being in consistent contention for and winning multiple SB's over a long period of time.    You don't achieve that in the 21st century without a franchise QB because you can't keep deep rosters together.   Even coaches like John Gruden and Brian Billick didn't get lifetime contracts for taking woeful franchises to one-time SB victories.   You want to last in the NFL you NEED a franchise QB.    

 

 

I never said if you make dumb decisions you shouldn’t be held accountable,of course you should. If you suck as a GM you should be held accountable 

 

Of course the Goal Of EVERY TEAM is to find a franchise QB. But it’s way harder than you are making it sound. When you draft a QB just to draft one you end up with Manuel and Geno Smith and Gabbert etc

 

If you aren’t drafting top 5 or 10 in a good QB draft you need to find a guy who has the traits you look for in an offense. 

 

The one thing college coaches don’t do is prepare their QBs to be successful NFL QBs... It’s all about winning now in college 

 

Andrew Lucks and Peyton Manning’s are going to be rarer and rarer

8 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I just wanna point out that Pop Warner (or Junior All American Football where I coached kids among other places) is not truly "next man up"

If your starters get held out by their parents or god forbid actually get hurt you are gonna struggle now matter how well you coach fundamentals.....your best players play and the kids that are not as talented get sprinkled in to get their plays and you cover them up as best you can because all the kids deserve to play if they show up for practice.

 

I thought that our bills coaching staff got a lot out of a little last year when they started sending off our core players for draft picks.....I dont know if people understand what a great job that was by McDermott to even have us in a POSITION to be able to make the playoffs.

 

McDermott is gonna lean on his defense this year.

 

Yes I agree there is no next man up in pop warner. You have the stars, then the kids who are playable and then the rest.

 

when your best kids go down in pop warner you can’t replace them

 

Everybody in the NFL is very talented no matter their stat line or pedigree. Some like Freddy or Victor Cruz or Adam Theilin or Kurt Warner were just waiting for their next man up opportunity 

 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Buffalo716

[thebandit27]

13 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Shots not taken at the QB position that result in success for another team while you struggle at the position..........are absolutely no less damning than misses on your resume though.  

 

Buddy Nix and Russell Wilson are tied to each other in Bills lore.........he too would choose no QB until it's time.......so imagine actually trading a first round pick that turns into someone else's franchise QB........that is actually worse than whiffing on your own.

 

You really can't hide in the NFL..........you will be held accountable either way so it's a mistake to think that "I wasn't ready" is an excuse.   A reason?  Sure.  But not an excuse.

 

Oh I definitely believe that it was the wrong approach.

 

And yes, passing on those QBs and choosing instead to give up multiple valued assets to get Allen should be part of the evaluation.

 

All that said, Allen will (rightly or wrongly) be the bottom line on this one. If he ends up being the franchise guy, then this regime will live on.

[JohnC]

45 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Oh I definitely believe that it was the wrong approach.

 

And yes, passing on those QBs and choosing instead to give up multiple valued assets to get Allen should be part of the evaluation.

 

All that said, Allen will (rightly or wrongly) be the bottom line on this one. If he ends up being the franchise guy, then this regime will live on.

I liked the aggressiveness this regime exhibited in getting Allen. However, where I have a nuanced disagreement with your position is if Allen doesn't work out or is hurt that doesn't mean that the franchise is sunk. There is nothing mutually exclusive about dedicating resources to finding a franchise qb while at the same time continuing on with building the roster. The Eagles demonstrated that point. 

 

It's clear that one of the primary reasons that the Bills have been mired in generational mediocrity is that they didn't have a franchise qb, and to make matters worse seemed to have a perplexing languid attitude toward addressing that issue. But on top of that demonstration of nonfeasance/malfeasance the franchise was in general poorly run. Poor drafting, poor cap management, bad coaching and front office staffing and the constant churning within the organization have led to a hollowed out franchise competing with serious and focused franchises. 

 

I'm not disagreeing with your take. I'm simply adding to it. The source of this organization's historical failure had more to do with how the organization was being run than with a particular position (qb) requirement. Because the organization was shallow (front office and coaching staff) it's not surprising that its output was paltry. If there is to be success in the near distant future it will be more attributable to the selection of McDermott as the HC and Beane as the GM. Smartly working in tandem and sync is what is going to be the most influential factor for future success. Again, I'm aware that we are not in disagreement but wanted to add another layer to the discussion.  

[thebandit27]

32 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I liked the aggressiveness this regime exhibited in getting Allen. However, where I have a nuanced disagreement with your position is if Allen doesn't work out or is hurt that doesn't mean that the franchise is sunk. There is nothing mutually exclusive about dedicating resources to finding a franchise qb while at the same time continuing on with building the roster. The Eagles demonstrated that point. 

 

It's clear that one of the primary reasons that the Bills have been mired in generational mediocrity is that they didn't have a franchise qb, and to make matters worse seemed to have a perplexing languid attitude toward addressing that issue. But on top of that demonstration of nonfeasance/malfeasance the franchise was in general poorly run. Poor drafting, poor cap management, bad coaching and front office staffing and the constant churning within the organization have led to a hollowed out franchise competing with serious and focused franchises. 

 

I'm not disagreeing with your take. I'm simply adding to it. The source of this organization's historical failure had more to do with how the organization was being run than with a particular position (qb) requirement. Because the organization was shallow (front office and coaching staff) it's not surprising that its output was paltry. If there is to be success in the near distant future it will be more attributable to the selection of McDermott as the HC and Beane as the GM. Smartly working in tandem and sync is what is going to be the most influential factor for future success. Again, I'm aware that we are not in disagreement but wanted to add another layer to the discussion.  

 

Indeed

 

There's really no downside to being aggressive at QB; either you get it right, or you fail spectacularly enough to be drafting high again and take another shot.

[JohnC]

7 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Indeed

 

There's really no downside to being aggressive at QB; either you get it right, or you fail spectacularly enough to be drafting high again and take another shot.

I have to salute McDermott and Beane in mapping out a strategy to get a high end prospect qp from this draft class. They were really focused on this endeavor. They made moves  to acquire picks and traded Glenn to move up the board and on draft day after exploring their many options executed a deal that got Josh Allen. This was a many layered and complex operation. And they got the deal done for a reasonable price. And as a bonus they didn't give up any of their two first round picks or future picks. On top of that multi-pronged approach the McBeane tandem made a deal to get an exceptional talent in Edmunds for a pick they acquired in the trading of Tyrod. This was a tremendous execution that hopefully got us our franchise qb but also an anchor defensive player. While Whaley took a patchwork approach to addressing the roster this regime was much more strategic in reworking the roster and its structure. Kudos to them. 

[BigBuff423]

On 4/27/2018 at 4:20 PM, Zerovotlz said:

Chiefs Get : 

QB Pat Mahomes (R1 pick 10, 2017)

 

Bills Get:

CB Tre White (R1 pick 27, 2017)

Pick 91 (R3 pick 91, 2017) packaged with other picks for trade up to 37.  Rams used pick on S John Johnson.  Bills go to (R2 pick 37, 2017) and select WR Zay Jones.

Pick 21 (R1 pick 21, 2018) packaged with other picks for trade up to 16.  Ravens traded out with Titans who used the pick on LB Rashaan Evans.  Bills go to (R1 pick 16, 2018) and select LB Tremaine Edmunds.

 

Esentially, after it was all said and done, it was Mahomes for Tre White, Zay Jones and Tremaine Edmunds.

 

Thank you.

 

You’re missing a few components like trading Cordy Glenn to get to 12 and then trading assets up to 7 go get Allen. And the assets acquired as part of the Mahomes trade were part of the total evaluation because the forfeited the option of Mahomes knowing this was their QB selection year. So it’s more a part of the whole set of circumstances rather than direct link to what was actually traded. 

[3rdand12]

19 hours ago, JohnC said:

One of us is a recalcitrant. Which one? It depends on one's perspective. ?

Ha ! 

 I did chuckle reading this, thanks.
:  )

[3rdand12]

6 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Indeed

 

There's really no downside to being aggressive at QB; either you get it right, or you fail spectacularly enough to be drafting high again and take another shot.

There is a time and place to be aggressive. and by gosh you better pick the right ones. In life and the NFL draft for QB.
 These guys feel like they are in the beginning stages of what the Bills should look like to them. The general turnover is complete or will before the season begins.

This was a great shot to take in my very humble opinion. Was not sure before the draft which one they were focused on . But now i feel as if Allen might have been the guy they wanted all along !
Sure hope they got it right. I like these guys.

[BillsFan17]

So the careers of all involved in the trade have yet to be played out and the book is closed?

 

Just asinine.

[3rdand12]

23 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

You’re missing a few components like trading Cordy Glenn to get to 12 and then trading assets up to 7 go get Allen. And the assets acquired as part of the Mahomes trade were part of the total evaluation because the forfeited the option of Mahomes knowing this was their QB selection year. So it’s more a part of the whole set of circumstances rather than direct link to what was actually traded. 

You have to view this from 20 thousand feet i think. The Project which includes Building defense first year and preparing to be able to reach for the QB in the second make the direct comparison using statistics does not tell the whole story as to value of the individual decision making maybe ?

1 minute ago, BillsFan17 said:

So the careers of all involved in the trade have yet to be played out and the book is closed?

 

Just asinine.

it was explained upthread by the OP that was not the intention of the post.
I thought as you did till i read through.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, 3rdand12 said:

There is a time and place to be aggressive. and by gosh you better pick the right ones. In life and the NFL draft for QB.
 These guys feel like they are in the beginning stages of what the Bills should look like to them. The general turnover is complete or will before the season begins.

This was a great shot to take in my very humble opinion. Was not sure before the draft which one they were focused on . But now i feel as if Allen might have been the guy they wanted all along !
Sure hope they got it right. I like these guys.

This regime starting with McDermott felt that it was better to wait for the next draft class rather than select from the prior class. Maybe it was mostly due to the fact that McDermottt just took over and still was working with the Whaley regime that was going to be replaced. Contrast that more calculated approach than the Nix approach who was determined to draft a qb in the Manuel draft class in which none of the qbs in that class were ranked very high. What was obviously apparent was that Nix was determined to come out of that class with a qb regardless how good the class was. My problem was not in the drafting of Manuel as it was selecting a third or fourth round graded qb in the first round. It was an ill-conceived reach that set this franchise back. There is certainly no guarantee that Allen is going to be a franchise qb but it was still a reasonable selection. 

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Indeed

 

There's really no downside to being aggressive at QB; either you get it right, or you fail spectacularly enough to be drafting high again and take another shot.

 

And I agree with this too. Ultimately if the ones they passed on last year and this year end up better than our boy they will get criticised and rightly so... but I prefer the identify a guy and be aggressive to the passivity of the past. 

 

If Allen fails then Beane better hope McDermott has kept the team sneaking into the post-season in order that it is he who gets the chance to take the next shot. 

[Doc Brown]

On 5/27/2018 at 1:51 PM, oldmanfan said:

I liked Watkins a lot, thought it was a smart move to trade up and draft him, but time has shown he can't be considered a stud WR.

He still has the physical tools and quickness to make occasional big plays and stretch the defense.  Him being a decoy allows other weapons on offense to have more room to work with.  Goff, Gurley, Kuff, and Woods all had their best years last year due in large part to defenses shading to Watson. The Rams wisely recognized this value and although Watkins was too expensive for them, they made a deal to Brandon Cooks who also can stretch a defense.

 

Watkins should make it easier for Mahomes to take advantage of his other weapons including Kelce, Hunt, Hill, and Albert Wilson.  Having said all that, I hope Watkins and Mahomes fail miserably.

[3rdand12]

45 minutes ago, JohnC said:

This regime starting with McDermott felt that it was better to wait for the next draft class rather than select from the prior class. Maybe it was mostly due to the fact that McDermottt just took over and still was working with the Whaley regime that was going to be replaced. Contrast that more calculated approach than the Nix approach who was determined to draft a qb in the Manuel draft class in which none of the qbs in that class were ranked very high. What was obviously apparent was that Nix was determined to come out of that class with a qb regardless how good the class was. My problem was not in the drafting of Manuel as it was selecting a third or fourth round graded qb in the first round. It was an ill-conceived reach that set this franchise back. There is certainly no guarantee that Allen is going to be a franchise qb but it was still a reasonable selection. 

Manuel was to satisfy us screaming Fans !
after long Fitz Nix had no option and it was a tough year to finally cannon ball into the pool of shallow water ( QB)
I have been of the opinion , McD wanted to get his Offensive Coaching and scouting in place via Beane. Before jumping of the high board into the deep end.
we shall see, but hope is what the offseason Bills Fans do best !
Go Bills !

[JohnC]

11 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

Manuel was to satisfy us screaming Fans !
after long Fitz Nix had no option and it was a tough year to finally cannon ball into the pool of shallow water ( QB)
I have been of the opinion , McD wanted to get his Offensive Coaching and scouting in place via Beane. Before jumping of the high board into the deep end.
we shall see, but hope is what the offseason Bills Fans do best !
Go Bills !

I have a different take on Nix's delaying in getting a qb. He was simply inept. He had an outdated philosophy of believing that you build up the roster before adding a qb instead of getting one when the opportunity exists. When you hire an old time scout ill equipped to be a GM there shouldn't be much surprise when the GM falters.  

[3rdand12]

17 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I have a different take on Nix's delaying in getting a qb. He was simply inept. He had an outdated philosophy of believing that you build up the roster before adding a qb instead of getting one when the opportunity exists. When you hire an old time scout ill equipped to be a GM there shouldn't be much surprise when the GM falters.  

That is not a disagreement on Nix.
He knew Bills needed a QB when the Fitz thing happened. He should have known Ryan was not the answer to begin with.
 Inept ? yes we agree.

 I am loathe to mention it.

 but Ralph was cheap  : )

[buffaloaggie]

20 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

He still has the physical tools and quickness to make occasional big plays and stretch the defense.  Him being a decoy allows other weapons on offense to have more room to work with.  Goff, Gurley, Kuff, and Woods all had their best years last year due in large part to defenses shading to Watson. The Rams wisely recognized this value and although Watkins was too expensive for them, they made a deal to Brandon Cooks who also can stretch a defense.

 

Watkins should make it easier for Mahomes to take advantage of his other weapons including Kelce, Hunt, Hill, and Albert Wilson.  Having said all that, I hope Watkins and Mahomes fail miserably.

Watkins won't fail, because all he'll be is a decoy, as you mention, for Kelce, Hunt, and Hill. A very expensive decoy though. Hill is gonna go nuts this year. Tyreek Hill's catch rate vs targets is right near the top of the league, and he's just scratching the surface.

 

Mahomes won't fail because he has Andy Reid.