Making the case for Lamar Jackson

[26CornerBlitz]

 

[John from Riverside]

2 hours ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

I can't put into words how much I want the Patriots to use a 1st rd pick on Lamar Jackson. 

LOL

[26CornerBlitz]

Greg Cosell's draft analysis: Lamar Jackson can execute an NFL passing game
When I watch Lamar Jackson on film I think about the Houston Texans last season. You look at what Bill O’Brien did with Deshaun Watson and I wonder, why couldn’t Jackson execute that offensive system effectively?

In studying Jackson’s tape from 2016 and 2017, you see a quarterback who can operate effectively within framework of a structured passing game. Louisville’s offense had NFL passing game concepts, and that’s a plus for Jackson. There’s also a spectacular dimension to Jackson’s game that shows up with both designed runs and second-reaction throws and runs.

[transplantbillsfan]

5 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

Greg Cosell's draft analysis: Lamar Jackson can execute an NFL passing game
When I watch Lamar Jackson on film I think about the Houston Texans last season. You look at what Bill O’Brien did with Deshaun Watson and I wonder, why couldn’t Jackson execute that offensive system effectively?

In studying Jackson’s tape from 2016 and 2017, you see a quarterback who can operate effectively within framework of a structured passing game. Louisville’s offense had NFL passing game concepts, and that’s a plus for Jackson. There’s also a spectacular dimension to Jackson’s game that shows up with both designed runs and second-reaction throws and runs.

 

And hey... the Patriots probably have an interest in Jackson, in part, because the Eardhart-Perkins offense they run is what Jackson ran at Louisville.

 

Hey, what offense do we run again? 

[Solomon Grundy]

1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

And hey... the Patriots probably have an interest in Jackson, in part, because the Eardhart-Perkins offense they run is what Jackson ran at Louisville.

 

Hey, what offense do we run again? 

You're about to get Jackson hate in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1....

[racketmaster]

16 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

Greg Cosell's draft analysis: Lamar Jackson can execute an NFL passing game
When I watch Lamar Jackson on film I think about the Houston Texans last season. You look at what Bill O’Brien did with Deshaun Watson and I wonder, why couldn’t Jackson execute that offensive system effectively?

In studying Jackson’s tape from 2016 and 2017, you see a quarterback who can operate effectively within framework of a structured passing game. Louisville’s offense had NFL passing game concepts, and that’s a plus for Jackson. There’s also a spectacular dimension to Jackson’s game that shows up with both designed runs and second-reaction throws and runs.

Cosell also went on to discuss his poor mechanics and awkward throwing motion. He questioned his accuracy and ball placement as well as his over reaction to pressure and collapsing pockets. 

 

Jackson possesses some freakish talent but we would be fooling ourselves to think he is Deshaun Watson who was a much more accurate and poised passer. Best case scenario for Jackson, he gets drafted by a team that can afford to sit him for a few years like Tyrod. Then when he plays Jackson will hopefully have corrected or at least minimized some of his deficiencies.

[BigBuff423]

1 hour ago, racketmaster said:

Cosell also went on to discuss his poor mechanics and awkward throwing motion. He questioned his accuracy and ball placement as well as his over reaction to pressure and collapsing pockets. 

 

Jackson possesses some freakish talent but we would be fooling ourselves to think he is Deshaun Watson who was a much more accurate and poised passer. Best case scenario for Jackson, he gets drafted by a team that can afford to sit him for a few years like Tyrod. Then when he plays Jackson will hopefully have corrected or at least minimized some of his deficiencies.

 

I strongly disagree about the "few years" portion of your statement. I think Jackson would benefit from A year to sit, but Cosell has mentioned in other places that Jackson's footwork in some cases is fine, it's when his base is too narrow, causing the errant throws. But considering Jackson's percentage is .09% below the coveted 60% for a college passer, let's not presume he's "way off"...then you consider he led the 5 major QBs in dropped passes by his receivers and that he ran a Pro Style Offense, and I don't think he's as raw or under-developed as you insinuate. Jackson has developed tremendously under proper teaching and coaching with Petrino and IMO, you can see how he's still developing meaning, he's going to get better with good coaching. Jackson is a good pocket passer that needs to work on his footwork and placement but he's not some prospect that couldn't come in and begin to win from the pocket - he just wouldn't be as good as he will be if he sits and learns for a year. That said, whatever team will need to commit to that year. Not just have him hold a clipboard and throw him out onto an island, but have the QB coach really work with him, spend time with him, go over mechanics and film. If so, sky is the limit for the kid.

[26CornerBlitz]

 

[racketmaster]

33 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

I strongly disagree about the "few years" portion of your statement. I think Jackson would benefit from A year to sit, but Cosell has mentioned in other places that Jackson's footwork in some cases is fine, it's when his base is too narrow, causing the errant throws. But considering Jackson's percentage is .09% below the coveted 60% for a college passer, let's not presume he's "way off"...then you consider he led the 5 major QBs in dropped passes by his receivers and that he ran a Pro Style Offense, and I don't think he's as raw or under-developed as you insinuate. Jackson has developed tremendously under proper teaching and coaching with Petrino and IMO, you can see how he's still developing meaning, he's going to get better with good coaching. Jackson is a good pocket passer that needs to work on his footwork and placement but he's not some prospect that couldn't come in and begin to win from the pocket - he just wouldn't be as good as he will be if he sits and learns for a year. That said, whatever team will need to commit to that year. Not just have him hold a clipboard and throw him out onto an island, but have the QB coach really work with him, spend time with him, go over mechanics and film. If so, sky is the limit for the kid.

I think we can just agree to disagree on Jackson. To me he has some significant mechanical flaws that may or may not ever get corrected. They are nowhere near the issues Tebow had but they are issues and sometimes all the practice and repetitions do not translate to the actual games. When discussing his accuracy, Jackson is pretty good with the shorter throws and at times has some solid deep ball accuracy. However, he can miss badly on intermediate throws even without pressure. Those throws that end up 3 yards over the head of his wr end up being picks in the NFL more often than not. And the thing that concerns me most about Jackson is that he is too quick to run or bail the pocket at the first sign of pressure or perceived pressure. It happens way too often and this hampers his development as a passer (every time he decides to rely on his legs is one less practice repetition he could have had going deeper into his progressions and developing better in pocket movement). 

 

In the end, Jackson is a dynamic runner. He has run the ball on average about 245 times a year the past 2 seasons. That is an extremely high amount of runs and they are not all designed runs. That amount of running will cause Jackson to have a very short career in the NFL. He was able to completely dominate most college defenses with his athletic ability but it will be much less so at the NFL level. Good defenses will remain disciplined and will have the speed to contain him. His freakish athletic ability is both a gift and a curse. Jackson has been able to go through a quick 1-2 read and then take off if he does not feel comfortable with it. And when taking off he is frequently able to avoid defenders and pick up chunk yards or sometimes get outside the pocket and make a passing play in a scramble drill. It worked for him in high school and it worked for him in college (and if it usually works why not keep doing it). But that style has slowed his development as a passer and he will need to be a better passer at the NFL level to have long-term success. 

 

I see two paths for Jackson. (1) he gets drafted by a team like Arizona and he ends up playing early because Bradford gets hurt or is ineffective. Jackson will be able to make some explosive plays, mostly with his legs or in scramble mode. But he will not be a developed enough passer and will ultimately struggle. (2) he gets drafted by a team like the Chargers or Ravens. He sits behind a veteran who is a passer and Jackson works on his mechanics and focuses on being a more patient and poised pocket passer (don't forget about his legs but use them only when necessary). Here is a situation where I could see Jackson having some success after 2-3 years. If he is willing to work and put in the time, I think he could have a chance. I think this path helped Tyrod and I believe Jackson is more talented. And for the Bills, I don't see it as a good fit because he would be pushed into action too quickly (I don't see McCarron as anything more than an average backup). 

7 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

It's possible the Patriots draft Jackson. They have taken shots on qbs similar to Jackson (Tebow, Edelman). They like versatile football players and Jackson is a versatile football player. I have concerns over whether Jackson could be a long-term option at qb but he would have time to learn and develop. If he develops then they have a weapon at qb for a reasonable price and a replacement for Brady. The Patriots could also find ways to use Jackson in special packages while they are trying to develop him. And if in 2-3 years, things were not going well for his development at qb, NE could move him to wr where he would probably be a dynamic threat. 

[BillsVet]

On 4/11/2018 at 5:32 AM, Buffalo Ballin said:

Lamar Jackson will be our new QB.

- No trading needed to get him.

- O-line is depleted. Our QB has to be able to run given the current situation.

- Our team now has as much holes to fill as the Colts. We have to keep our picks. I don't want us fielding an XFL level team.

 

McBeane are thinking longer term than 2018 when, on paper, this team will have at least 2 new OL starters.  No decent GM or HC is thinking only 1 year into the future.  At least not those who want to have a job further down the road. 

 

Besides, no one drafts a QB because they are concerned about the OL. They improve the OL and simultaneously get the QB.

 

 

[26CornerBlitz]

 

[Buddy Hix]

I like Jackson, not as much as Mayfield or Darnold but when the cost of moving up is factored in I think Jackson would be a good selection. Watson's accuracy was questioned last year and he looked great, so that critique doesn't scare me off of Jackson.

 

I'm pretty much good with anybody but Allen and Ruldolph, as long as it doesn't cost the Bills next year's 1st as well.

[BigBuff423]

2 hours ago, racketmaster said:

I think we can just agree to disagree on Jackson. To me he has some significant mechanical flaws that may or may not ever get corrected. They are nowhere near the issues Tebow had but they are issues and sometimes all the practice and repetitions do not translate to the actual games. When discussing his accuracy, Jackson is pretty good with the shorter throws and at times has some solid deep ball accuracy. However, he can miss badly on intermediate throws even without pressure. Those throws that end up 3 yards over the head of his wr end up being picks in the NFL more often than not. And the thing that concerns me most about Jackson is that he is too quick to run or bail the pocket at the first sign of pressure or perceived pressure. It happens way too often and this hampers his development as a passer (every time he decides to rely on his legs is one less practice repetition he could have had going deeper into his progressions and developing better in pocket movement). 

 

In the end, Jackson is a dynamic runner. He has run the ball on average about 245 times a year the past 2 seasons. That is an extremely high amount of runs and they are not all designed runs. That amount of running will cause Jackson to have a very short career in the NFL. He was able to completely dominate most college defenses with his athletic ability but it will be much less so at the NFL level. Good defenses will remain disciplined and will have the speed to contain him. His freakish athletic ability is both a gift and a curse. Jackson has been able to go through a quick 1-2 read and then take off if he does not feel comfortable with it. And when taking off he is frequently able to avoid defenders and pick up chunk yards or sometimes get outside the pocket and make a passing play in a scramble drill. It worked for him in high school and it worked for him in college (and if it usually works why not keep doing it). But that style has slowed his development as a passer and he will need to be a better passer at the NFL level to have long-term success. 

 

I see two paths for Jackson. (1) he gets drafted by a team like Arizona and he ends up playing early because Bradford gets hurt or is ineffective. Jackson will be able to make some explosive plays, mostly with his legs or in scramble mode. But he will not be a developed enough passer and will ultimately struggle. (2) he gets drafted by a team like the Chargers or Ravens. He sits behind a veteran who is a passer and Jackson works on his mechanics and focuses on being a more patient and poised pocket passer (don't forget about his legs but use them only when necessary). Here is a situation where I could see Jackson having some success after 2-3 years. If he is willing to work and put in the time, I think he could have a chance. I think this path helped Tyrod and I believe Jackson is more talented. And for the Bills, I don't see it as a good fit because he would be pushed into action too quickly (I don't see McCarron as anything more than an average backup). 

It's possible the Patriots draft Jackson. They have taken shots on qbs similar to Jackson (Tebow, Edelman). They like versatile football players and Jackson is a versatile football player. I have concerns over whether Jackson could be a long-term option at qb but he would have time to learn and develop. If he develops then they have a weapon at qb for a reasonable price and a replacement for Brady. The Patriots could also find ways to use Jackson in special packages while they are trying to develop him. And if in 2-3 years, things were not going well for his development at qb, NE could move him to wr where he would probably be a dynamic threat. 

 

We certainly do agree to disagree. You continue to say he runs at the first sign of trouble, yet nearly every single evaluator would disagree with you for his most recent, and polished year. Consider reading this Cover1 article:

 

 https://www.cover1.net/scouting-report-qb-lamar-jackson-louisville/

 

Here's an excerpt about his strengths:

Strengths:

"Aside from his overall athletic ability, which of course is my highest-graded trait of the former Cardinal, his poise and ability to throw from the pocket really stood out on his 2017 film."

 

Again, we won't agree, but your take on him, IMHO, is very far from being based in fact and more from taking quick hit reads and one line headlines and forming an opinion. 

[racketmaster]

2 hours ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

We certainly do agree to disagree. You continue to say he runs at the first sign of trouble, yet nearly every single evaluator would disagree with you for his most recent, and polished year. Consider reading this Cover1 article:

 

 https://www.cover1.net/scouting-report-qb-lamar-jackson-louisville/

 

Here's an excerpt about his strengths:

Strengths:

"Aside from his overall athletic ability, which of course is my highest-graded trait of the former Cardinal, his poise and ability to throw from the pocket really stood out on his 2017 film."

 

Again, we won't agree, but your take on him, IMHO, is very far from being based in fact and more from taking quick hit reads and one line headlines and forming an opinion. 

There are a lot of favorable opinions of Lamar Jackson out there in the media and draft community. This is in part because Jackson has some unique physical traits and there is potential that he could develop into a very good qb. But I also believe many analysts and members of the media have purposely avoided being too harsh or negative toward Jackson because of the firestorm that Polian’s comments caused. In many ways, Jackson has become a sympathetic figure and a player to root for because he has been doubted and potentially discriminated against. It tends to be human nature to root for the underdog and since the Polian comments Jackson has been viewed by many as an underdog. No character concerns, said to be a hard worker, and the racial component does make Jackson an easy underdog.

 

With all that said, real NFL evaluators who have their jobs on the line need to make objective judgments. And I believe in the private draft rooms of each team there have been serious debates about whether Jackson can make it as a qb. Why do I say that? Because there were some serious criticisms of Jackson’s ability to become a good NFL qb (most all of which took place before Polian’s comments). Here is a sample:

- Albert Breer writes…

“The evaluators I’ve spoken with have questions about his instincts and anticipation in the passing game, and his ability to process within the context of a pro offense, and still believe he’s more thrower than passer… He was seen as raw as a quarterback going into 2016, and the feeling on that remains the same.”

 

- “Watson has a chance to be at least as good as Winston,” he said. “We played he and Lamar Jackson, and Jackson has no shot at playing quarterback in the NFL. None. He can’t make the throws and can’t read coverages. He’s not going to have a chance. Watson stands tall in the pocket and whips the ball around like Ben Roethlisberger.” Anononymous ACC Coach

 

- "I don't know for sure where he'll play in our league, but he's f-ing; exciting. I could also see someone breaking him in half the first time he's hit." —AFC defensive coordinator

 

-"With as much natural talent he has, there's developmental potential. The key will be how well his offensive coordinator and quarterbacks coach can create a scheme for him—like Kyle Shanahan with RGIII—so he can have success early. Then you have to build on that success so defenses don't catch up to him." —NFC player personnel director

 

-"Well, I think the first question is what is he? I don't think he's a great passer despite good arm strength. I don't think he's a powerful enough runner to have success on the ground. So he'll have to learn to be a better thrower and stop relying on his legs. And if that doesn't work, move him to receiver." —former NFL general manager

 

-And of course Bill Polian:  “Exceptional athlete, exceptional ability to make you miss, exceptional acceleration, exceptional instinct with the ball in his hand, and that’s rare for wide receivers. That’s [Antonio Brown], and who else? Name me another one; Julio [Jones is] not even like that.” Polian added, “Don’t be like the kid from Ohio State and be 29 when you make the change,” referring to Washington Redskins wide receiver Terrelle Pryor, who switched from quarterback in 2015.

 

The above comments all came before Polian and the draft/smokescreen season kicked into overdrive. The above comments also come from all talent evaluators and persons in the college or pro game. I doubt all the above individuals had some vendetta that made them want to try and lower Jackson’s draft stock.

But if that is the case, I have another evaluation on Jackson from Steve Fairchild (35 years coaching experience on offense at NFL and college level). He completed an extensive breakdown on Jackson and the other top qbs. He did not hide behind anonymity and his evaluation lines up with the player I have seen play. The summary is below is from a breakdown of his film:

-

“This well-accomplished collegiate player possesses average size for an NFL quarterback and is off the charts when it comes to athletic ability. Jackson has the speed and change of direction ability to allow him to make plays at the next level both when he scrambles/creates and with designed runs. The volume of these types of plays in the NFL will depend on his durability and how much the coaching adapts the offense to his style of play. He throws a good ball and has a good upper body motion, to go along with above-average arm strength. His alignment of his lower body and his ability to be compact in the pocket must improve.  This can be corrected but will take time, as will the ability to adapt from under center. Jackson is a tremendous athlete but doesn’t demonstrate drop-back fundamentals that will make his transition to the NFL easy. He lacks the ability to stand in the pocket when it’s pushed and can move radically but he doesn’t show the subtle movement needed to be an effective NFL quarterback at this point in time. He’ll need to continue to develop as a pocket-passer with his movements and ability to progress through his reads. Jackson will have to gain a degree of comfort and become more compact in a tight pocket. There is no denying he is a dynamic athlete and a big-time play maker. The Florida native has a huge upside because of athleticism and possibly the ability to be a wide receiver. Jackson will definitely need time to develop as a quarterback. He projects as a second-round pick in the 2018 NFL Draft.” Steve Fairchild (35 years as an offensive coach in the NFL and college).

 

My opinion of Jackson is pretty much in line with Fairchild. He has some arm talent and he is an extremely rare talent as a runner. No character concerns so there is upside but he needs time to develop in order for him to have the best chance at success. Because he needs more time and development is not guaranteed, I don’t think he is on the Bills radar. I don’t think the Bills will target Allen either for a similar reason as he needs time to develop.

 

By now, most people have their opinions as to whether Jackson will be any good or not formed already. I don’t expect to change your mind either but I provided all the comments above from real personnel and coaches just to show that there is likely significant concerns in NFL draft rooms about whether Jackson can ever play effectively from the pocket. Comparing him to Watson is not completely fair. Watson was above 67% completion percentage all 3 years he was at Clemson. He was a much more poised and developed passer. He ran a lot less (165 times in his junior year to Jackson’s 232 times) and Watson like pretty much everyone else was much less effective running than Jackson. I have no ill will toward Jackson and if the Bills draft him I will be rooting for him to make it. Just my honest opinion. 

Edited April 13, 2018 by racketmaster

[Solomon Grundy]

3 hours ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

We certainly do agree to disagree. You continue to say he runs at the first sign of trouble, yet nearly every single evaluator would disagree with you for his most recent, and polished year. Consider reading this Cover1 article:

 

 https://www.cover1.net/scouting-report-qb-lamar-jackson-louisville/

 

Here's an excerpt about his strengths:

Strengths:

"Aside from his overall athletic ability, which of course is my highest-graded trait of the former Cardinal, his poise and ability to throw from the pocket really stood out on his 2017 film."

 

Again, we won't agree, but your take on him, IMHO, is very far from being based in fact and more from taking quick hit reads and one line headlines and forming an opinion. 

You'll get A LOT of that on here!! #fakenews

[Solomon Grundy]

For everyone who says/thinks Jackson doesn't fit Beane/McDermott profile, read this:

 

https://billswire.usatoday.com/2018/02/28/nfl-draft-lamar-jackson-buffalo-bills-combine/

[stuvian]

I think Jackson is the surest thing at QB in this draft. If we take him at 12 without trading up it would be icing on the cake

[Big Gun]

35 minutes ago, stuvian said:

I think Jackson is the surest thing at QB in this draft. If we take him at 12 without trading up it would be icing on the cake

No

[xRUSHx]

Why get rid of Tyrod if your just going to draft a QB just like him. No thanks I want a true pocket QB. Hey dont give Jackson too much to learn did his pushers see his WLscore? Limited in a simplified system, Tyrod all over again.

 

It is sad how some want to settle for what is left, the old Whaley way. I'd rather see this staff take a real swing at getting better. Is it just me or is it the old Tyrod diehards on these boards that are pushing hard to draft his clone? Looking at the names posting support for Jackson sure like the same ones that wouldn' t let Tyrod go. I can hear them now, McCoy is only good because Jackson makes him be a better RB, if the OC would just dumb down the system and Taylor make it for Jackson we would be great. JMO

Edited April 14, 2018 by xRUSHx

[1billsfan]

On 4/14/2018 at 9:14 AM, xRUSHx said:

Why get rid of Tyrod if your just going to draft a QB just like him. No thanks I want a true pocket QB. Hey dont give Jackson too much to learn did his pushers see his WLscore? Limited in a simplified system, Tyrod all over again.

 

It is sad how some want to settle for what is left, the old Whaley way. I'd rather see this staff take a real swing at getting better. Is it just me or is it the old Tyrod diehards on these boards that are pushing hard to draft his clone? Looking at the names posting support for Jackson sure like the same ones that wouldn' t let Tyrod go. I can hear them now, McCoy is only good because Jackson makes him be a better RB, if the OC would just dumb down the system and Taylor make it for Jackson we would be great. JMO

 

I never liked Tyrod Taylor as the Bills QB, yet I want the Bills to draft Lamar Jackson. He's going to be the best QB in this draft class and it's not even going to be close. As for your comparison of the two, it's as if you're saying all sports cars are the same. However, Taylor is a Camaro and Jackson is a Lamborghini.

 

BTW, the smartest QB guru on the planet Bruce Arians went on record saying he would draft Lamar Jackson as the Cardinals franchise QB (a team he was just head coach of for the past five seasons)...

 

https://www.revengeofthebirds.com/2018/4/15/17238760/bruce-arians-lamar-jackson-2018-nfl-draft-pick-15-arizona-cardinals

 

 

Edited April 15, 2018 by 1billsfan