davspo Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Does the dude even play? Time to move on. Between the health issues and drug issues, there is no good reason to believe his career will take a sudden turn for the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob in Mich Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 7 minutes ago, jmc12290 said: I'm willing to bet that zero of those came from taking opioids as directed. Also, lots of new opioid addicts in our country. They got this way by following the directions on the bottle perfectly......and now they are addicted. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: I’d take that bet. It’s a small percentage for sure but it isn’t crazy to think that someone prescribed the wrong dosage. I actually was accidentally prescribed to take a dosage 5x what it is supposed to be. When I questioned it the pharmacist contacted the doctor. By the same token you may not find 1 cannabis related death based on consumption. Wrong. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22231902 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24598271 https://www-ncbi-nlm-nih-gov/pubmed/24598271 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29218644 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29227828 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29125965 Not to mention the deleterious effects of consumption on the developing brains of adolescents. They may not die, but they have their cognitive function impaired forever. This is why I challenged you. There is an opioid crisis but the meme "opioids bad, weed good" needs to die. 7 minutes ago, Bob in Mich said: Also, lots of new opioid addicts in our country. They got this way by following the directions on the bottle perfectly......and now they are addicted. Lots of weed addicts too. What's your point? Edited February 26, 2018 by jmc12290 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 12 minutes ago, jmc12290 said: Wrong. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22231902 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24598271 https://www-ncbi-nlm-nih-gov/pubmed/24598271 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29218644 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29227828 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29125965 Not to mention the deleterious effects of consumption on the developing brains of adolescents. They may not die, but they have their cognitive function impaired forever. This is why I challenged you. There is an opioid crisis but the meme "opioids bad, weed good" needs to die. Lots of weed addicts too. What's your point? There were 26 deaths attributed to marijuana overdoses betweeen 1999-2007 (from what I saw). There were 63,000 deaths from opioid overdoses in 2016. So if we are going to play the “good, bad” game you will have a difficult time proving that marijuana is more dangerous than opioids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: There were 26 deaths attributed to marijuana overdoses betweeen 1999-2007 (from what I saw). There were 63,000 deaths from opioid overdoses in 2016. So if we are going to play the “good, bad” game you will have a difficult time proving that marijuana is more dangerous than opioids. I'm not trying to prove that. Especially because we don't know. But opioid use as directed is safe. The OD number is not as directed. Edited February 26, 2018 by jmc12290 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkyMannn Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 My understanding that when Henderson was battling Crohns, he also lost a lot of strength. Who knows if he ever gains that back. Time to move on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Just now, jmc12290 said: I'm not trying to prove that. Especially because we don't know. But opioid use as directed IS SAFE. Still no safer than marijuana. 1 in 4 people prescribed opioids for pain struggle with addiction. https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/data/overdose.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said: Still no safer than marijuana. 1 in 4 people prescribed opioids for pain struggle with addiction. https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/data/overdose.html We have insufficient data to make that claim. How do opioids affect brain development in adolescents? How does marijuana? Also, that 1 in 4 number is BOGUS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob in Mich Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 10 minutes ago, jmc12290 said: I'm not trying to prove that. Especially because we don't know. But opioid use as directed is safe. The OD number is not as directed. Being a chronic pain patient in Michigan when medical cannabis became legal in 2009 I have vast experience with both forms of pain control. Cannabis does not control all types of pain equally but for me and many others I know, cannabis concentrates were a Godsend. Opiates may be better for acute pain but the long term use of opioids is very hard on a person, both physically and mentally. Over time opiates will damage liver and kidneys too. If you think there is an equivalence between long term cannabis use versus long term opiate use, even as directed, you may want to do some further research, or ask your doctor. To conclude, even as directed, long term opiate use is not safe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 5 minutes ago, jmc12290 said: We have insufficient data to make that claim. How do opioids affect brain development in adolescents? How does marijuana? Also, that 1 in 4 number is BOGUS. So the CDC is the one putting out bogus numbers? The only people that think the data is insufficient are the ones sticking their heads in the sand or being funded by big pharma. Marijuana as a schedule 1 drug is a joke. That’s why so many places have taken the common sense steps to legalization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wppete Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Yes I want the Bills to sign him. Unlock the potential if he is healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: So the CDC is the one putting out bogus numbers? The only people that think the data is insufficient are the ones sticking their heads in the sand or being funded by big pharma. Marijuana as a schedule 1 drug is a joke. That’s why so many places have taken the common sense steps to legalization. Yep. Follow their citation. It comes form nowhere. They literally made it up. Also, you changed it from what they said. You said, "1 in 4 people prescribed opioids for pain struggle with addiction." The CDC said, "As many as 1 in 4 people who receive prescription opioids long term for noncancer pain in primary care settings struggles with addiction." And the source they cited....didn't say anything. What does "struggle with addiction" mean, anyway? Symptoms of physical dependence? Because some slight constipiation isn't a big deal. Psychological dependence? How severe is the "struggle?" You see how having lay people meme there way around these topics is such a problem, and why physicians train for 12+ years. The potential for misinformation is vast. I agree that marijuana as a schedule 1 is excessive. I don't believe any drugs should really be illegal. That doesn't mean they are safe. There is insufficient data to prove to safety and efficacy of marijuana. Any health care professional with a brain will admit that. 7 minutes ago, Bob in Mich said: Being a chronic pain patient in Michigan when medical cannabis became legal in 2009 I have vast experience with both forms of pain control. Cannabis does not control all types of pain equally but for me and many others I know, cannabis concentrates were a Godsend. Opiates may be better for acute pain but the long term use of opioids is very hard on a person, both physically and mentally. Over time opiates will damage liver and kidneys too. If you think there is an equivalence between long term cannabis use versus long term opiate use, even as directed, you may want to do some further research, or ask your doctor. To conclude, even as directed, long term opiate use is not safe. Your experience as an n of 1 is really not relevant. I don't need to ask another doctor to know the data. I know the data. Edited February 26, 2018 by jmc12290 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob in Mich Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 2 minutes ago, jmc12290 said: Yep. Follow their citation. It comes form nowhere. They literally made it up. I agree that marijuana as a schedule 1 is excessive. I don't believe any drugs should really be illegal. That doesn't mean they are safe. There is insufficient data to prove to safety and efficacy of marijuana. Any health care professional with a brain will admit that. Your experience as an n of 1 is really not relevant. I don't need to ask another doctor to know the data. I know the data. If you honestly think there is a safety equivalence between opiates and cannabis, you are either plain ignorant or willfully ignorant. Which would you say it is? By 'another doctor' you are implying that you are a doctor, then I would suspect the willfully ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBonhamRocks Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Re: Henderson, I won't weep either way. Re: drugs, there should not even be a marijuana vs. opioid "debate". Opioid use as directed is not safe. It has created many, many addicts. I've reviewed thousands of medical records at work -- the amount of people who get prescribed a coctail of pills for pain and end up completely reliant is bonkers. Just from some of the posted marijuana articles: - I'm not even going to give any credence to the one that says the guy mutilated himself because of marijuana use. - "The pathophysiological basis of these events is not fully understood..." - "After exclusion of other causes of death we assume that the young men experienced fatal cardiovascular complications evoked by smoking cannabis." - "Cannabis was mentioned once only on a death certificate, but not as a cause of death. . . . A positive urine cannabinoids immunoassay alone is insufficient evidence in the linkage of acute cardiac death and cannabis." I mean, c'mon. Elevated blood pressure? Maybe with the lethality of a cup of coffee, but no more. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logic Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 6 minutes ago, Bob in Mich said: If you honestly think there is a safety equivalence between opiates and cannabis, you are either plain ignorant or willfully ignorant. Which would you say it is? By 'another doctor' you are implying that you are a doctor, then I would suspect the willfully ignorant. This. Is it even a reasonable discussion? Cannabis is, without question, safer than opioids, and kills FAR less people and destroys FAR less lives. Everybody from medical doctors to McDonalds fry cooks can see that. Well, everybody except Jeffrey Beauregard "my private prisons depend on weed arrests to make money!" Sessions. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 8 minutes ago, Bob in Mich said: If you honestly think there is a safety equivalence between opiates and cannabis, you are either plain ignorant or willfully ignorant. Which would you say it is? By 'another doctor' you are implying that you are a doctor, then I would suspect the willfully ignorant. Here, I'll give you a chance. Show me a randomized double blinded clinical study that conprares the efficacy and adverse events of opioids and canniboids. Maybe I am ignorant to such a study, but I haven't seen it. 4 minutes ago, JohnBonhamRocks said: Re: Henderson, I won't weep either way. Re: drugs, there should not even be a marijuana vs. opioid "debate". Opioid use as directed is not safe. It has created many, many addicts. I've reviewed thousands of medical records at work -- the amount of people who get prescribed a coctail of pills for pain and end up completely reliant is bonkers. Just from some of the posted marijuana articles: - I'm not even going to give any credence to the one that says the guy mutilated himself because of marijuana use. - "The pathophysiological basis of these events is not fully understood..." - "After exclusion of other causes of death we assume that the young men experienced fatal cardiovascular complications evoked by smoking cannabis." - "Cannabis was mentioned once only on a death certificate, but not as a cause of death. . . . A positive urine cannabinoids immunoassay alone is insufficient evidence in the linkage of acute cardiac death and cannabis." I mean, c'mon. Elevated blood pressure? Maybe with the lethality of a cup of coffee, but no more. You have no idea how medicine is practiced. Of course the pathophys is poorly understood. That's the whole god damn point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logic Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Just now, jmc12290 said: Here, I'll give you a chance. Show me a randomized double blinded clinical study that conprares the efficacy and adverse events of opioids and canniboids. Maybe I am ignorant to such a study, but I haven't seen it. Dude...you can try to tie everyone up in double blinded studies and all sorts of jargon, but there's no reasonable way to assert that cannabis is as dangerous as opioids. There just isn't. From https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/index.html "The United States is in the midst of an opioid overdose epidemic. Opioids (including prescription opioids, heroin, and fentanyl) killed more than 42,000 people in 2016, more than any year on record. 40% of all opioid overdose deaths involve a prescription opioid." Now how many people did cannabis kill in 2016? I mean, seriously, this isn't even a debate. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Just now, Logic said: Dude...you can try to tie everyone up in double blinded studies and all sorts of jargon, but there's no reasonable way to assert that cannabis is as dangerous as opioids. There just isn't. From https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/index.html "The United States is in the midst of an opioid overdose epidemic. Opioids (including prescription opioids, heroin, and fentanyl) killed more than 42,000 people in 2016, more than any year on record. 40% of all opioid overdose deaths involve a prescription opioid." Now how many people did cannabis kill in 2016? I mean, seriously, this isn't even a debate. I stopped prescribing heroin in 1888. Double blinded studies and that "jargon" is the basis of every medical decision made in the modern era. You also have no idea how medicine is practiced. Surprisingly, you don't realize the science matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logic Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 1 minute ago, jmc12290 said: I stopped prescribing heroin in 1888. Double blinded studies and that "jargon" is the basis of every medical decision made in the modern era. You also have no idea how medicine is practiced. Surprisingly, you don't realize the science matters. Please show me the science, then, that lends any credence whatsoever to the idea of a reasonable equivalence between the addiction and death potentials of opioids and cannabis. I'd love to see it. Studies not in any way funded by pharmaceutical companies or others with vested interest would be preferred. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBonhamRocks Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 5 minutes ago, jmc12290 said: You have no idea how medicine is practiced. Of course the pathophys is poorly understood. That's the whole god damn point! And you do have an idea of how medicine is practiced? I would think the pathophysiology, which according to Google is "the disordered physiological processes associated with disease or injury", should probably be understood in order to make a diagnosis of that disease or injury being cause of death. Show me even one double blinded study that proves cannabis as a cause of death. Please do. You would be making medical history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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