Kelly vs Marino -- Bills dominance

[Big Turk]

2 hours ago, Azucho98 said:

Dolphins never had the running game Buffalo had. Thomas was the dolphin killer.

 

If remember correctly one of the games they beat us is when Mark Higgs had a monster day running the ball against us

1 hour ago, mjt328 said:

The Bills were a much better team from top to bottom.  Better running back.  Better receivers.  Better O-Line.  Better defense.

 

Jim Kelly wasn't the best Quarterback in the NFL during those years, but we had the offense to win a shoot-out with anyone.  Our Achilles heel was against teams with big/strong offensive lines and really good running backs.  At the time, most of those teams were in the NFC.  And we always seemed to play them in the Super Bowl.

Craziest part was we beat them during the regular season quite often just not in the super bowl...49ers, Giants and Cowboys we beat during the regular season...Cowboys the same year we lost in the Super Bowl and the Giants I believe the season after losing the Super bowl...or maybe that was the same season also

[BigDingus]

Like many have said, we had more talent but also that Marino didn't believe in running the ball. The wasn't the coach, but he damn sure got what he wanted from the offense.

Kelly called our plays, and he appreciated Thurman & the run game. Even though Kelly  liked slinging the ball, he liked winning more. Dan wanted to throw all the time, and the offense suffered for it when they came up against teams that could deal with it.

[BigDingus]

Also, to those saying Marino was a "better QB," I don't necessarily buy it.

He has the better numbers certainly, but there's more to the story.

Jim played 11 years in the NFL. That's it. Marino played 17 years, start to finish, in the NFL. Even if Jim hadn't gone to the USFL, Marino would play 3 years longer than him, retiring in 1999 as opposed to 1996.

Kelly had only 3 seasons where he started all 16 games. Marino had 11 seasons where he started all 16, starting 240 overall compared to Jim's 160. The other huge difference is obvious; one played in Buffalo where weather is not conducive to great QB play compared to Miami where it's as close to an outdoor dome as possible outside of LA or San Diego. Also, Jim called the majority of the offense from the field which takes someone extremely smart to do. He understood the game and could read a defense better than almost anyone. You can't give him enough credit for what he was able to do play by play and how focused & intelligent you have to be to do so.

Concussions cut Jim's career short and took him out of many games. Although he wasn't the best runner, he still tried, and rushed for 1,050 yards in his career compared to Marino's 301 yards, and he did it in 6 less seasons. They were just different types of QBs, but both great in different ways. That 301 rushing total in 17 years just shows how much of a true pocket passer Marino was. People called Bledsoe a statue, but Bledsoe had 385 rushing yards in 3 less seasons lol. Marino was a REAL statue.

Overall, I just think they're 2 different animals all together. Marino should get all the credit in the world, but people shouldn't forget that he got the offense he wanted. He's as much to blame for their lack of a SB caliber team as anyone else.


 

Edited December 20, 2017 by BigDingus

[Big Turk]

12 hours ago, jr1 said:

they were 1 dimensional. Dan had 11 seasons of more than 500 passing attempts

 

That would be par for the course now, but back then that ws a ton.

[hondo in seattle]

11 hours ago, Dadonkadonk said:

It was Thurman Thomas not Kelly that made the difference in those games.  Marino was a far superior QB though Kelly was a perfect QB for the K-gun and the Buffalo weather.  Marv never outcoached anyone.  Marv was the beneficiary of one of the top 5 GMs in the history of the NFL.  To Marv's credit he created a culture that was able to overcome the bickering Bills and somehow get a team to battle back year after year.  I am still amazed he made the HOF.  He was outcoached by Parcells/Belichick, Gibbs, and Johnson.   

I don't now what the hell happened to Shula in the 80's.  He had the premier QB in the NFL with a superior O-line(yes Marino made them look better than they probably were) and superstar WRs.  Even drafting middle to late, he should have been able to acquire the pieces necessary to get to more than one SuperBowl in an era when the AC was so weak.

 

I'm with BigDingus...   I don't believe that Marino was "far superior."  BD's characterization as the two QBs being "2 different animals" is right on. 

 

Both guys were very talented and both now deservedly find their busts in the HOF.    Marino was a pocket QB known for his accuracy and quick release.  Kelly was known more for his gunslinger confidence and toughness.  But Kelly was pretty darn accurate as well.   In my estimation, both were great.  Which was greater - I don't know.  But Kelly was the right QB for that team.  

[BigDingus]

20 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

I'm with BigDingus...   I don't believe that Marino was "far superior."  BD's characterization as the two QBs being "2 different animals" is right on. 

 

Both guys were very talented and both now deservedly find their busts in the HOF.    Marino was a pocket QB known for his accuracy and quick release.  Kelly was known more for his gunslinger confidence and toughness.  But Kelly was pretty darn accurate as well.   In my estimation, both were great.  Which was greater - I don't know.  But Kelly was the right QB for that team.  

 

Kelly was actually slightly MORE accurate than Marino. He just doesn't get the credit he deserves because of the things I mentioned above. When watching them play against each other, I never once thought "Man, if only Kelly was as good as Marino we'd be unstoppable!" They were much closer in the "great QB" discussion than people like to think.

[Real McClappy]

8 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

 

Kelly was actually slightly MORE accurate than Marino. He just doesn't get the credit he deserves because of the things I mentioned above. When watching them play against each other, I never once thought "Man, if only Kelly was as good as Marino we'd be unstoppable!" They were much closer in the "great QB" discussion than people like to think.

Marino was the better QB overall IMO. I love Jim Kelly BTW and would love a clone of him playing now.

 

Swap Marino and Kelly on teams --- Do the Bills win a Superbowl? Does Kelly pass for 61K yards and does Marino pass for 35K yards?

 

Marino's Dolphin teams remind me of the Colts and Luck. Full team effort, not just one man.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Real McCoy

[BigDingus]

29 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

Marino was the better QB overall IMO. I love Jim Kelly BTW and would love a clone of him playing now.

 

Swap Marino and Kelly on teams --- Do the Bills win a Superbowl? Does Kelly pass for 61K yards and does Marino pass for 35K yards?

 

Marino's Dolphin teams remind me of the Colts and Luck. Full team effort, not just one man.

 

A lot more would change than what you're saying. It's not total yards and that's it. Here's what would change:

1. The Bills wouldn't have half the rushing game they had. Marino CHOSE to ignore the run game and wanted to pass nearly every play. 

2. The Dolphins would have a run game. Kelly wanted to win by whatever means possible. Did he like to pass? Yes. But he knew how to manage a game & have a balanced attack.

3. Kelly called all his own plays, Marino didn't. The Bills offense wouldn't be the same if it relied on Marv & Marchibroda calling all the plays with Marino only being able to audible.

4. Shula & Kelly would've worked well together, and Shula was without a doubt a better coach than Marv. He likely could've made the swap work in his best interest far more than Marv could've.

5. Marino would've been playing in Buffalo. No QB would be throwing for 60k yards in Buffalo. 

So again, entire offenses would change and the approach would've been totally different. We don't suddenly win a SB because Marino is the QB, considering Thurman was the workhorse that we rode to victory more than anything. You think Marino would've used Thurman nearly as much if he was calling the shots? Also throw 6 more years worth of NFL stats onto Kelly's resume & then compare the numbers. It'd be closer to 54,000 yards at his regular rate.

Edited December 20, 2017 by BigDingus

[buffalobloodfloridahome]

Loved watching Bills V. Dolphins even at a young age I remember mostly in the 90's how Bruce would close out the games by sacking the daylights out of Marino. Marino had one of the quickest releases I've ever seen. They consistently surrounded Marino with less than talent at RB and WR and the defense was so up and down. Our defense was pretty solid and we had Thurman Thomas who ran through them pretty much every time. We had a better team in those years and we were more balanced on both sides of the ball. Marino was a heck of a QB and with a few more playmakers would of probably had a ring.

[bmur66]

The Bills beat them "Like a bad restaurant closing early". That's a quote that stuck with me about a playoff game in Miami.

[Chuck Wagon]

Looking at old Miami Dolphins stats brought up names of guys I hated, Karim Abdul-Jabbar, Oronde Gadsden, Lamar Smith.  Then I got to 2000 and rage quit.  I remember Thurman playing for them, yet somehow I blocked it out of my memory.  Yuck.  That 2000 offseason, at least Bruce had something left, kind of sad Thurman and Andre were washed up yet wore different uniforms for a year (or parts of a year).

[SaviorPeterman]

Both Marino and JK are all time greats, but I don't care what anybody says and not afraid to admit that Marino was the superior QB to JK.

 

And this is no indictment against JK and the margin is great, but you have to consider what Marino meant to his team and how he truly carried them many years with lackluster teams around him and virtually no running game unlike the Bills who also had an all time great RB, WR, DE, etc to pair with JK.

 

In the end it sucks that both of them never won a SB.

[Real McClappy]

2 hours ago, BigDingus said:

 

A lot more would change than what you're saying. It's not total yards and that's it. Here's what would change:

1. The Bills wouldn't have half the rushing game they had. Marino CHOSE to ignore the run game and wanted to pass nearly every play. 

2. The Dolphins would have a run game. Kelly wanted to win by whatever means possible. Did he like to pass? Yes. But he knew how to manage a game & have a balanced attack.

3. Kelly called all his own plays, Marino didn't. The Bills offense wouldn't be the same if it relied on Marv & Marchibroda calling all the plays with Marino only being able to audible.

4. Shula & Kelly would've worked well together, and Shula was without a doubt a better coach than Marv. He likely could've made the swap work in his best interest far more than Marv could've.

5. Marino would've been playing in Buffalo. No QB would be throwing for 60k yards in Buffalo. 

So again, entire offenses would change and the approach would've been totally different. We don't suddenly win a SB because Marino is the QB, considering Thurman was the workhorse that we rode to victory more than anything. You think Marino would've used Thurman nearly as much if he was calling the shots? Also throw 6 more years worth of NFL stats onto Kelly's resume & then compare the numbers. It'd be closer to 54,000 yards at his regular rate.

I like your post and agree on some points. #1 and 3 totally contradict themselves though. Marino did not chose to ignore the running game his FO did. If he had THurman Thomas why would he choose to ignore him?

https://americansportshistory.com/2013/01/03/dan-marino-did-the-lack-of-an-running-back-really-cost-him-super-bowl-rings/

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

Marino would win today w/a helmet speaker and a coach calling the plays.

 

He just needed to cheat.

[Charles Romes]

Another factor is Bruce owned Marino. It was hilarious watching Dan step up to the line every snap totally preoccupied with monitoring where Bruce was coming from.  It was impossible to pile up huge sack stats on Dan who got rid of it quicker abb anyone but man did Bruce disrupt his play.  

[Fadingpain]

8 hours ago, Real McCoy said:

Marino was the better QB overall IMO. I love Jim Kelly BTW and would love a clone of him playing now.

 

Swap Marino and Kelly on teams --- Do the Bills win a Superbowl? Does Kelly pass for 61K yards and does Marino pass for 35K yards?

 

Marino's Dolphin teams remind me of the Colts and Luck. Full team effort, not just one man.

I agree Marino would have been an improvement over Kelly in those years, but QB was not the weakness of our team.

If I could go back and change something, it would be to improve the Defense, which was always way over-rated in those years, despite having some big names on it and the magnificent Bruce Smith.