Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Figster said: You accomplished two things IMO, evaluated Peterman when games still mean something and told Taylor checking down when its 4th and forever doesn't get the job done. Now Buffalo can go into the next draft with no holding back. It was a very cold and calculated move in my humble opinion. Someone had to do it... I'm still trying to wrap my mind around why this is considered to be a Necessary Thing by so many here. Other teams draft QB in the 4-6 round, and it's typically expected that these guys may develop into capable backups in a few years. Unless they light up the place like a flare during preseason a la DangerRuss Wilson and earn the right to start, or start because of injury, it is not considered necessary to put them into a game that means something in order to evaluate them. And even then, if you must start them, it's typically expected that you will help them out, focus on the run game and short passes, simplify the scheme for them, be prepared to leave in extra blockers if the line is having a rough day. Suppose he did come in and light the place on fire, then have some up-and-down games the rest of the season -what then? Do you bank everything on him as "The Man", your new starter? What's the point of this "game that matters" evaluation supposed to be? Edited November 21, 2017 by Hapless Bills Fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadLandsMeanie Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Simply and maybe a bit inaccurately put, I see two possibilities about how they handled Peterman in his first game. A) They are bat **** crazy. B) They were drastically overconfident and enamored by Peterman, and put in a game plan suited for an experienced player. I am hoping it is B. Now McDermott has the problem of either letting Peterman stew on that as his first professional outing for the next year or two or three, or he can put him in again with a plan that some chance of success and hope he gets some positive experiences so that McDermott and his staff have not potentially ruined him completely. I would love to see film of this game to try and see what has happened to the defense but so far I haven't come across any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Murica Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 The browns call their stadium the factory of sadness, so, can we call ours The New Era of Misery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Ayjent said: Also, never said that the Bills should go to a quick passing game, I said they should go to a spread alignment. The reason is to give him more time to asses the rush. Bolded part of your post is spot on if Taylor is the QB, since this type of offense is his strength. Don't give Tyrod a pocket, let him move around behind the line as needed and create plays. But all this, I fear, is for not because of the rigid philosophy of Dennison...he won't allow it to come to fruition since this is not the type of offense he knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figster Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ayjent said: How did you evaluate Peterman? Seriously...if that's the kind of situation this team is going to put players in to evaluate them, I feel really bad for the players. He looked like hot garbage, but there are few QBs that could have commanded a decent offensive performance with that blocking and gameplan. Again, I don't care who the QB is as long as the Bills win, but that was a really bad time (when your line has been a sieve the past two games) and really poor way to evaluate a rookie QB. I guess you can rationalize this as ballsy, commendable coaching and a fair evaluation of a player, but I see it a lot differently. I think it is way more likely that the coaching staff is scrambling and grasping at straws, and it was the equivalent of grabbing a powerline instead of a straw. How are they going to evaluate the next guy and what kind of awful situations are they going to put him - that's what this staff has me seriously questioning after this game, not that they made a cold, calculated move. It also shows me that if they have adverse circumstances where injuries force them to adjust their schemes they are going to be listless. 5th round draft choices don't get many chances early on under normal circumstances. Taylor had to wait for years. So I wouldn't feel to bad for the most NFL ready Peterman because he's not and Buffalo knows that now. Nate Peterman should be grateful for the opportunity in my humble opinion. Perhaps he learned something from it and won't stink the place up so bad next time... Edited November 21, 2017 by Figster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoPar_v2 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Oh look, you’re LAMP didn’t get merged. Happy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figster Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I'm still trying to wrap my mind around why this is considered to be a Necessary Thing by so many here. Other teams draft QB in the 4-6 round, and it's typically expected that these guys may develop into capable backups in a few years. Unless they light up the place like a flare during preseason a la DangerRuss Wilson and earn the right to start, or start because of injury, it is not considered necessary to put them into a game that means something in order to evaluate them. And even then, if you must start them, it's typically expected that you will help them out, focus on the run game and short passes, simplify the scheme for them, be prepared to leave in extra blockers if the line is having a rough day. Suppose he did come in and light the place on fire, then have some up-and-down games the rest of the season -what then? Do you bank everything on him as "The Man", your new starter? What's the point of this "game that matters" evaluation supposed to be? vs a meaningless game when you have to wonder how well the supporting cast is playing. I'm wondering that anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 8 hours ago, BadLandsMeanie said: Simply and maybe a bit inaccurately put, I see two possibilities about how they handled Peterman in his first game. A) They are bat **** crazy. B) They were drastically overconfident and enamored by Peterman, and put in a game plan suited for an experienced player. I am hoping it is B. Now McDermott has the problem of either letting Peterman stew on that as his first professional outing for the next year or two or three, or he can put him in again with a plan that some chance of success and hope he gets some positive experiences so that McDermott and his staff have not potentially ruined him completely. I would love to see film of this game to try and see what has happened to the defense but so far I haven't come across any. Hmmm, some might say B) would be a reasonable working definition of what A) means 22 hours ago, clayboy54 said: Interesting corollary in a little story I want to share with you. When I played hockey (I was too small to play football), I was the walk-on, 3rd team goaltender, and never suited up for games. The starter, and some of our "stars" was often late to practice, didn't take practice seriously, and he didn't take heed to coach's warnings. We had a huge game coming up and everything seemed status quo. In the locker room before the game coach came in and said he was going to start me. You could hear a pin drop in the room. I started, and played the 1st period. I let in a soft goal in the final minute of the period. At the start of the 2nd period, the "stars" were back in their respective positions. They played well, and never took practices lightly again. The following year, we went to the Frozen Four. Coach built a helluva team with that statement. It has been written that coach Dennison instructed Tyrod to "open it up" the previous game (or two). He clearly didn't. He didn't target Benjamin often enough, and he didn't throw downfield. as instructed. For whatever reason, he defied coach's directions. He got "sat down." The results are now in the books, but the message is clear. When I played that 1st period, I definitely didn't give the team the best chance to win. But when the starter came in, he was a changed man. Neither did Nate Peterman give the team the best chance to win. But, did you see Tyrod checking down and looking indecisive when he came in for the 2nd half? No. He pushed the ball downfield and looked good doing it. In short, there is no chance the message wasn't received loud and clear by the team. We'll see whether that equates to performance improvements in the coming weeks. Based on my personal experiences, I appreciate the coaching style. I have a lot of respect for this style of coaching. It worked on my team, and it may start something here. It also explains a lot of the moves this team has made in 2017. I ask that you look at this in this context and give it a chance. This technique actually works with talented athletes. I agree with Shaw. I have a lot of belief in this GM and HC. If it was a "message", "play as you're asked or play Left Bench", then I would feel better about it as actually making sense. Although, by all reports, Taylor is first in/last out and takes preparations of all sorts seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadLandsMeanie Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Hmmm, some might say B) would be a reasonable working definition of what A) means Bravo! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 (edited) On 11/19/2017 at 11:14 PM, Maine-iac said: I think they made a few moves too many, at least for this season. Every move right up until trading Dareus seemed almost genius but they went to the well one too many times. Dareus left and the defense left with him. No defense means the games aren't even close. Agreed. People can argue all they like about how Dareus didn't play enough to make a difference. I put the facts out there: the Oakland game (Oak has little run game and none apart from ML) is an anomaly. Otherwise it can be seen that the run game was more porous when MD was out earlier in the season, and vastly more porous since he left; and that contrary to popular report that he was only playing 1/3 of snaps, in several games it was closer to 2/3. Then look at Jax run D since Dareus showed up. If you really want to tank, you start at the very beginning. I think all signs point to they genuinely are trying to win as much as they can this year, and either these guys didn't realize what Mr Big Stuff was doing for the D (they see better film, they'd be stupid), or, Mr Big Stuff got up to some shenanigans which led them to say "I don't care who you are and what you do on the field, You're Out and we'll deal with the consequences". But you know, then...Deal. Make changes to your scheme. Adapt. Use the players you have. On 11/19/2017 at 11:14 PM, Maine-iac said: When was the last great Dennison QB, maybe Schaub in Houston 2012? I think it got good and then it got out of control and maybe it's all a little bigger than McDemott can handle right now. Schaub (whom long timers know I regarded as an under-rated QB in his prime) had Kubiak for 3 years and Kyle Shanahan for 2 before Dennison moved from Denver in 2010. I don't think Dennison had much to do with developing Schaub, who had his best career in 2009. 16 minutes ago, BadLandsMeanie said: Bravo! Thanks. If you're moderately organized or better, you can get a week's free trial of NFL Gamepass and watch the game (condensed and all-22 should be up today). Then cancel. 6 hours ago, Figster said: vs a meaningless game when you have to wonder how well the supporting cast is playing. I'm wondering that anyway... No, vs letting him do the typical late round rookie development path: barring injury, let him practice at half speed and watch game film for a year and support the starter on the bench. If there's injury, support him with a simple, run-heavy game plan that doesn't ask too much of him, give the OL extra help, and hope for the best. Give him a meaningless game if relevant, and see how he does at 3/4 speed. If he starts really lighting it up in preseason and is within spitting distance of or outplays the starter, then consider giving him a meaningful start. But while Peterman did some good things in preseason, he was no Russ Wilson "gotta play me" kid. You don't develop a QB by throwing him into the fire in a meaningful regular season game with a gameplan designed for a seasoned QB. No useful purpose is served. Unless, as someone here speculated, the whole point was as a close-aimed shot across Taylor's bows: throw it, or spend the rest of the season holding a clipboard and watching the Peterman debacle. Edited November 21, 2017 by Hapless Bills Fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Noggin Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 In my twenties, when the drought was just getting underway, I used to play a drinking game to keep things interesting. Take a shot for every time the Bills get scored on and every time they turn the ball over. Kind of like solidarity with the team. Then, in 2007, I think, against the Patsies, I went half blind. I'm strongly considering bringing back this drinking game, as a way to punish myself for being a fan. Now, nearly 40, it will be sadder, and the next day will be much, much worse. I'll feel something like Kyle Williams must feel after getting beat up for 60 minutes, surrounded by back-ups and scrubs. Like an honorary member of this hot mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadLandsMeanie Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 10 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: If you're moderately organized or better, you can get a week's free trial of NFL Gamepass and watch the game (condensed and all-22 should be up today). Then cancel. Hey great. I can do it! I will mark my calendar so I dint forget to cancel. It is bittersweet that I am doing it to see what on earth has gone so wrong. Something is very wrong. More wrong than it should be. It is like the defense have been denied even their physical bodies. They can't even just simply get in the way. They should be able to do better just by having bodies, and being randomly in the way. LIke, we could give the defense all smartphones and have them text while walking around out there. They would be sure to bump into someone. Anyway thank you I will take a look. 5 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said: In my twenties, when the drought was just getting underway, I used to play a drinking game to keep things interesting. Take a shot for every time the Bills get scored on and every time they turn the ball over. Kind of like solidarity with the team. Then, in 2007, I think, against the Patsies, I went half blind. I'm strongly considering bringing back this drinking game, as a way to punish myself for being a fan. Now, nearly 40, it will be sadder, and the next day will be much, much worse. I'll feel something like Kyle Williams must feel after getting beat up for 60 minutes, surrounded by back-ups and scrubs. Like an honorary member of this hot mess. You should sober up. You can do AA or you could only drink when the Bills score a passing touchdown, or win a game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mead107 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 To the pit of misery. Dilly Dilly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Hucklebuck Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 I am glad you have admitted it Shaw. Fans backed Nix when he hired Gailey. I saw a guy who was out of football when the Bills called. Fans loved the Doug Marrone hire, believed Russ Brandon when he said he was "dynamic". I saw a 5-day joke of a "no stone unturned" search for a Coach. Couldn't stand him from the first few sentences I heard him speak. Remember the "I'm one of you guys" talk with all the New York pride? Now I thought Pettine would have been a better HC, but you see how the Browns have done since him. I also thought Rex would have built the Bills defense into a hardened unit. I was always concerned about Rex's simplistic offensive philosophy, and you saw in his two books that he didn't involve himself in offensive meetings. On to McDermott, first time he was asked to describe his offense - run the ball because its Buffalo. And I don't think there really is anything deeper with him. I don't think his vision is to create a top-flight passing game. I think he thinks he can line up and just run over people (with just one viable RB on the roster). I think we will suffer for it. The Bills had a chance to draft Deshaun Watson or Patrick Mahomes and they passed for a cornerback. His Defense is an outdated Tampa-2 that Jauron tried to run 11 years ago here in Buffalo. McDermott is Mr. Calculating, he always "knows where you're going with that" when you ask him questions. I think we have learned that the rest of the league doesn't care about his vision for this team, or how he plans to get better everyday. They are just punching this paper thin/talentless roster in the face now every week. I've said for a long time that the Bills FADE every year down the stretch as these games get tougher, and no surprise, they are doing it again. The question for this regime will be, are they Dick Jauron, believing you can get by with lunchpail guys and reviewing the tape? Or do they actually believe that talent ultimately wins? Because McDermott strikes me so far as a just work harder than everyone else guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bills757 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 I still believe McDermott's decision to bench Taylor for Peterman was motivated to take the focus off how terrible the defense has been playing of late. After Sunday, it's pretty clear to see the primary reason why the offense has sputtered....the Oline play has been horrendous. Peterman got chewed up and spit out (not his fault) so I'm not quite sure why people are shocked at the results. McDermott's decision to change QB's (as if that was the real problem) is akin to replacing your point guard in basketball because your team can't rebound worth a darn. It makes no sense. It's actually scary that McD actually thought Peterman gave the Bills the best chance to win. That, to me, is the most worrisome thing about this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Hucklebuck Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 What I don't understand is the number of fans who clamored for Peterman? He was a 5th Rounder. Is that really a move that signifies the team believes that he is the "future". He'd defy the odds if he topped out as a career backup. I never saw him as a real plan at QB. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bills757 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Just now, Straight Hucklebuck said: What I don't understand is the number of fans who clamored for Peterman? He was a 5th Rounder. Is that really a move that signifies the team believes that he is the "future". He'd defy the odds if he topped out as a career backup. I never saw him as a real plan at QB. He may be the future somewhere but to put him in that position and for him to have such a bad half was McD's fault and only serves to set him back in his development. With a guy like Peterman, you get him into game situations where the game is pretty much over (up big or down big). Let him at least get his feet wet before you throw him to the wolves. Peterman and McD can talk all they want about how he learned from it and all that, but there's no doubt in my mind that when Peterman goes back on the field, he's gonna be thinking about the five interceptions. He's gonna be playing tight not wanting to make a mistake. And that's exactly what you don't want from your QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 22 hours ago, Figster said: Players like Marcell Dareus are a cancer to a locker room. Something you can't have from the highest paid player on the team. McD has the balls to make tough decisions looking into the future long term and I commend him for it. Like OP, I still Billieve... I think Mario Williams was a locker room cancer. His own fridge, special treatment in other ways, then started phoning it in. Rex should of benched his a** and shot him out of town. I didn't see the same from Dareus when he played, and by what accounts have come out, he was well-liked by his fellow players. Just had trouble getting his a** going in time for meetings and such, a problem with which I sympathize (though were I MD, I would hire a personal assistant to worry about my schedule for me). I'm not saying he might not have done something we haven't heard about that caused McD to say "that's it, you're outta here", just saying I think the "locker room cancer" story is unsubstantiated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 38 minutes ago, mead107 said: To the pit of misery. Dilly Dilly Dilly Dilly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeagentqb Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 17 minutes ago, Bills757 said: He may be the future somewhere but to put him in that position and for him to have such a bad half was McD's fault and only serves to set him back in his development. With a guy like Peterman, you get him into game situations where the game is pretty much over (up big or down big). Let him at least get his feet wet before you throw him to the wolves. Peterman and McD can talk all they want about how he learned from it and all that, but there's no doubt in my mind that when Peterman goes back on the field, he's gonna be thinking about the five interceptions. He's gonna be playing tight not wanting to make a mistake. And that's exactly what you don't want from your QB. Except playing tight is what TT appears to have been doing since he got here. At least to me anyway. I like Peterman and he looked good while completing his first three passes especially the laser to Kelvin, a pass Tyrod rarely if ever throws. The first int went off the hands of the fullback and returned for six. Another int was miscommunication when peterman threw long and the receiver cut out short. At least one and possibly two were caused when he was hit when throwing. I'd put Peterman in again with a carefully scripted set of initial plays to help his confidence and see if he can be salvaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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