KD in CA Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 So if the bills have this amazing culture this year, what are their chances of the playoffs? It's been proven time and time again too. Culture is raised with talent, The bills could have all the culture in the world, but until they find a QB they will be a below average team, at best. You have it backwards; strong, consistent culture improves the ability to find talent. When you don't have it you end up with the dart throwing strategy the Bills have employed for the last 20 years. If you think the difference between the Bills and Steelers all boils down to who drafted BR in 2004 you have zero understanding of how organizations work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountDorkula Posted August 18, 2017 Author Share Posted August 18, 2017 You have it backwards; strong, consistent culture improves the ability to find talent. When you don't have it you end up with the dart throwing strategy the Bills have employed for the last 20 years. If you think the difference between the Bills and Steelers all boils down to who drafted BR in 2004 you have zero understanding of how organizations work. No it doesn't, draft picks cant pick and choose where they play. Literally its a roll of the dice with QB's. Andrew Lucks decision to stay in school altered the course of the Bills. They would have had Cam Newton, not Marcel Dareus. If the Bills end up with Big Ben instead of JP Losman, this team most definitely has been in the playoffs several times by now. If you cant see that, you have no idea how football works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elite Poster Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 Old timer farts as you put it have wisdom. You should listen and learn. I live just outside Indy and there is absolutely no question that Manning established a culture in the Colts. His talent aside he demanded work ethic and excellence from the guys around him and established that culture and mindset. Any cursory reading of the success of Brandy and Belichicks teams will tell you the same. Do you need talent? Sure, in any organization. Do you also need a culture that optimizes use of talent and that maximizes effort of all employees? Absolutely. I'm not young by any means, but holy hell, if it was Blake Bortles demanding that same drive out of his teammates and organization, does it change a damn thing??? I was also living in Indy when the Colts got Manning. They knew he was going to be good. We all did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 I'm not young by any means, but holy hell, if it was Blake Bortles demanding that same drive out of his teammates and organization, does it change a damn thing??? I was also living in Indy when the Colts got Manning. They knew he was going to be good. We all did. Yes he was good. And yes he changed the culture. And you should know that if you lived here. You need talent and the right culture. Ask any CEO. It is not an either/or choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 Like it or not NE has a culture and so does Pittsburgh. I guess I am saying yes. Except for the many documented times in which the Steelers were Team Dissension. Just a few quick examples from the Mike Tomlin era: 2009: http://insidepittsburghsports.com/story/tomlin-must-fix-dissension-in-the-locker-room/ 2017: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000775119/article/mike-tomlin-steelers-spotted-patriots-a-day-and-half 2013: http://triblive.com/sports/dejankovacevic/dejancolumns/4513658-74/clark-polamalu-steelers 2013: https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2013/3/4/4062416/is-the-steelers-locker-room-fractured I know, I know ... the response will be "but this proves the Steelers have a strong culture. They overcame the typical locker room problems that every NFL team has and continued to put a winning product on the field." I consider this to be an example of what is called the "narrative fallacy" - "our tendency to construct stories around facts, which in love for example may serve a purpose, but when someone begins to believe the stories and accommodate facts into the stories, they are likely to err." The Steelers continue to win; there must be something more to it than having a future HOF QB, stable ownership, and stable/sound coaching. We'll call that "culture." At some point things will go south (they always do) and Mike Tomlin will quit or retire or be kicked upstairs (perhaps coinciding with their QB retiring?) and all of a sudden there won't be a winning culture there after all. It's all circular. Now, I'm willing to concede this: there may be organizations (businesses, sports teams, even governments - some would say Singapore?) that are so strong that they instill in their young employees the same ethic of hard work, stability, and sound fact-based decisionmaking that they are able to sustain excellence even when key personnel retire or otherwise leave. I will grant that. But you'd have to show me a sports team that manages to sustain excellence in this situation. The Steelers are about as good an example as I can think of (mostly due to a remarkable 3 head coaches in 45+ years, but even there Cowher came from outside the Steelers (the Browns) and Tomlin too (Bucs/Vikes), so it isn't a good example of coming up through the system learning the "Steelers way." On the other hand, the examples of an Assistant taking over when a head coach retires aren't very compelling; Richie Pettibone following Joe Gibbs' first retirement comes to mind as a colossal failure of promoting from within. So after all that ... no, I'm not convinced that there is something real that we can call "a winning culture" ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountDorkula Posted August 18, 2017 Author Share Posted August 18, 2017 Yes he was good. And yes he changed the culture. And you should know that if you lived here. You need talent and the right culture. Ask any CEO. It is not an either/or choice. So, Big Ben and Pittsburgh..... Patrick Kane and Chicago.... Multiple time champions. Complete )*&^'s as people, and character always called into question. how do you explain that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 So, Big Ben and Pittsburgh..... Patrick Kane and Chicago.... Multiple time champions. Complete )*&^'s as people, and character always called into question. how do you explain that. Pittsburgh is easy. Stability in HC and front office. Commitment to strong D and running game. I don't know much about the Hawks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountDorkula Posted August 18, 2017 Author Share Posted August 18, 2017 Pittsburgh is easy. Stability in HC and front office. Commitment to strong D and running game. I don't know much about the Hawks. Pittsburghs defense has been below average for awhile now. The Hawks were the laughing stock of the NHL for a while. constantly terrible in every way. Arrives the best winger in the game and they magically start winning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 (edited) Pittsburgh is easy. Stability in HC and front office. Commitment to strong D and running game. I don't know much about the Hawks. 1, 1, 6, 11, 14, 18, 10 -- that's the Steelers defensive rankings since 2010. Culture was no substitute for age taking away their best defensive players, or for "modern sports training techniques" bringing James Harrison back from the dead ... Edited August 18, 2017 by The Frankish Reich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 1, 1, 6, 11, 14, 18, 10 -- that's the Steelers defensive rankings since 2010. Culture was no substitute for age taking away their best defensive players, or for "modern sports training techniques" bringing James Harrison back from the dead ... And the difference is they will stay with that commitment and continue to be successful, rather than bouncing around every couple years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 And the difference is they will stay with that commitment and continue to be successful, rather than bouncing around every couple years. Or maybe their key defensive players got old/left, and then they started rebuilding the defense and it started getting better again. Kind of like what's happened and is happening with the Bills? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaadThingsMan Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 Without getting too far into it...yes. I think culture can lead to alot of winning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 Yes. I do not believe it starts and ends in the lockerroom though. Its the entire organization. It usually gets passed down from the owner, team president, coach. You are never going to have a perfect group of 53 millionaire players. You need to somehow get them on enough of a commitment to win. It comes from culture. Players in ne, pittsburgh, denver, seattle, gb, etc know that a championship is an attainable. Jax, buffalo, tampa, miami, jets, etc... it is probably seen more as a business/profession/stepping stone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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