BillsFan17 Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Funny thing is the guy could move the team... so there is that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 More luxury boxes is generally what the owners are after, because that's non-shared revenue IIRC. As to seat licenses, I think that if they were smart about how they incorporated them--say a few thousand dollars for the premium seats being the top of the scale--that it wouldn't be prohibitive. ...true but it is getting tougher to fill the existing suites at New Era.....our company has one......20 seats for $75,000/yr......now add in game day food and beverage @$1,500 (case of Blue Light is $125; chicken wings @ $100), $450 for parking, $1,000/game for limo bus we provide from Roch-Cha-Cha and it adds up quick.....we see more WNY companies "suite sharing" to mitigate the cost, which leads to more vacancies....it is the WNY economy of scale...our set up would be $250k-$300+k in major markets like DC, Dallas, or SF PLUS licenses...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 ...true but it is getting tougher to fill the existing suites at New Era.....our company has one......20 seats for $75,000/yr......now add in game day food and beverage @$1,500 (case of Blue Light is $125; chicken wings @ $100), $450 for parking, $1,000/game for limo bus we provide from Roch-Cha-Cha and it adds up quick.....we see more WNY companies "suite sharing" to mitigate the cost, which leads to more vacancies....it is the WNY economy of scale...our set up would be $250k-$300+k in major markets like DC, Dallas, or SF PLUS licenses...... I hear you...I wonder if they're hoping that a nice shiny new set of luxury boxes would lure more suitors from the GTA? For as much heat as Russ Brandon takes on this board, his ability to generate revenue has been solid, so I have to assume that he has (or is developing) a plan for when a new stadium becomes a reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 I hear you...I wonder if they're hoping that a nice shiny new set of luxury boxes would lure more suitors from the GTA? For as much heat as Russ Brandon takes on this board, his ability to generate revenue has been solid, so I have to assume that he has (or is developing) a plan for when a new stadium becomes a reality. ....if new digs meant a substantial increase is suite costs, we would be out....it's pretty embarrassing now when we have to literally beg people to go in December when the Bills are traditionally out of it and the suite goes vacant..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 You miss the point. Has it ever occurred to you that because it's only "a little money" from every taxpayer doesn't make it OK? It's not a vital service and the private business entity in question absolutely has the financial means to fund the stadium completely with private wealth. Ratings may be down, but the NFL is still the most popular broadcast product available to advertisers. I think we all understand how new stadiums increase owner wealth, but...so what? Teams will always be getting tons or free money because nearly all the wealth is shared. Putting a competitive team on the field will not depend on how gigantic an owner's annual profit is. It will still be large. Ralph was making tens of millions a year, despite relatively low nonshared revenue. HE was worried about having to pay some back if the owners who's teams were driving league popularity wanted to changed the revenue sharing formula. So you believe that there is a huge (untapped?) market of Bills fans who would pay significantly higher seat prices....but they currently don't go to the games because the food/drink/seating styles (amenities) aren't fancy enough for them? And where would all of the new corporate box money come from? Again so what? So the owners can't stash as much profit every year. How does that matter? It really can't affect the "competitiveness" of the actual football team. If an owner can't compete with Kraft or Jones in just how high their pile of money is, that's a billionaire's problem. If taxpayers are going to be in the business of funding Pegula's stadium, it should be as a lender. Why give the money away? That's a sucker move. Let Terry pay interest on a loan to Erie/NYS. That's business, baby. I am not going to try to argue how things ought to be. I am simply stating how things are. Believe what you wish. This is still the NFL we are talking about. Whatever is being done elsewhere in the NFL is likely the model that will be followed here. I say BS. On one of my properties, I park average people to multi millionaires. A couple had suites for 35-40 years. They got the amenities and perks which came with the suites. They dropped the suites because of the drought, not because of the weather, or the type of crowd. I go to the game to watch football. I don't know what amenities I need more than the game. If I needed more than I guess I would stay home. Ok , the team won't pursue a more modern NFL business model because you don't think they need to and would stay home if you needed more amenities. That settles it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUFFALOKIE Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 (edited) You know, I have a feeling; In the end I bet Pegula writes a check for the whole damn stadium. At least the portion not paid by the NFL itself. He could certainly become a legend by doing so. I guess that's just the old romantic in me. Edited March 27, 2017 by BUFFALOKIE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 ....if new digs meant a substantial increase is suite costs, we would be out....it's pretty embarrassing now when we have to literally beg people to go in December when the Bills are traditionally out of it and the suite goes vacant..... Kirby would know better than me, but my guess is that it would mean a slight increase, but more likely an increase in the number of boxes. You know, I have a feeling; In the end I bet Pegula writes a check for the whole damn stadium. At least the portion not paid by the NFL itself. He could certainly become a legend by doing so. My guess (and that's all it is) is that it'll be something like Pegula funding 40-50%, the NFL's G5 program contributing 10-20%, Jacobs contributes 10% and gets the concessions, and then public money does the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Poll the season ticket holders , new stadium for higher prices or refurbish . As long as the team stays here, all is good. That would eliminate potential season ticket holders. People who would pay more to get more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Kirby would know better than me, but my guess is that it would mean a slight increase, but more likely an increase in the number of boxes. My guess (and that's all it is) is that it'll be something like Pegula funding 40-50%, the NFL's G5 program contributing 10-20%, Jacobs contributes 10% and gets the concessions, and then public money does the rest. Think that your stab at the breakdown is fairly reasonable. In terms of the suites, I would guess that there would be a slight increase in price and total number (not drastic though). I think that you will see some PSL's and the biggest jump will be the lower level tickets between the 20's. Those will have club type amenities and PSL's associated with them. I would think that you'd be looking at about $200 a ticket there (roughly double). There will also be a variety of new avenues for sponsorship. My guess is that the Bills will initially hope to generate another $50M or so a year in non-shared revenue. They should be able to do that pretty easily IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaCrispy Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 (edited) You want conspiracy? What if the Pegulas secretly don't ever want to have to build a new stadium so they quietly allow their team to continue to flounder so that they never have success? Quote Does anybody even know what this means? Tougher to compete? What are they talking about? Compete for what with who? What disadvantage? I know, right...we constantly hear other owners saying this and not 1 fan knows what it means...is there a secret agenda by the NFL that fans are not aware of? Is it to scare teams into getting new stadiums? is it just words or is there something behind it? Edited March 27, 2017 by JaCrispy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianFan Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 ...true but it is getting tougher to fill the existing suites at New Era.....our company has one......20 seats for $75,000/yr......now add in game day food and beverage @$1,500 (case of Blue Light is $125; chicken wings @ $100), $450 for parking, $1,000/game for limo bus we provide from Roch-Cha-Cha and it adds up quick.....we see more WNY companies "suite sharing" to mitigate the cost, which leads to more vacancies....it is the WNY economy of scale...our set up would be $250k-$300+k in major markets like DC, Dallas, or SF PLUS licenses...... A suite is only $75k per year? That's CHEAP! I guess Bills are lying to this source about their costs - this is cost per game: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 A suite is only $75k per year? That's CHEAP! I guess Bills are lying to this source about their costs - this is cost per game: It could be the ticket cost vs. the license fee associated with the suite. That $18k would account for both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevWarRifleman Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/sports/columnist/roth/2015/10/30/roth-buffalo-bills-ghostly-gridiron/74865990/ Thanks Chan. Perhaps we need to get a Shamen, or Spirit Chief and do a ceremony to cleans the area. Who knows, it might end our playoff drought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 No, I didn't miss the point; you never raised the question of the morality or propriety of it. Do I think that the owners should pay for their own stadium? Yes. Am I willing to fork over $300 over a multi-year tax period if asked? Yes. I pay him exactly what he asks, and I bring he and his wife a veritable bounty of food and drink on a weekly basis to show my appreciation for allowing us to park. I know this is an issue that's close to your heart; I also don't think that saying I'm able to pay the increased costs associated with a new stadium makes me a villain in any way, shape, or form. I have in each response. Also, it's fine for you donate 300 tax $$ each year for who knows how long, because you were asked to by the Pegulas. But what if the majority of NYS taxpayers don't want to donate to the Pegulas business again? ....the busted State is going to give it away anyway, whether to Pegula or another municipality.......so either fight for your share or watch it pissed away somewhere else....of course now the Gov is sweating bullets because any significant change in 'Bama Care could make $2.3 billion go away for Medicaid..... Who is doing the fighting--you mean the Pegula's should fight for theirs? The taxpayers? The latter group would not be fighting for "theirs". They get nothing new from this. Cuomo is sweating out the entire "Buffalo Billion" fiasco as it is mired in scandal. And the there's the solar city giveaway. I know that this is a little older but I think that it is a decent example. http://deadspin.com/the-nfl-split-7-2-billion-in-revenue-sharing-last-year-1719217695 The local revenue in Green Bay was about 40% of their total revenue. That percentage is much smaller in Buffalo. As of the most recent Forbes valuation the Bills total revenue was $326M and $226M was from the revenue sharing. Roughly 30% of the total revenue for the Bills is local revenue. As the new stadiums in Vegas and LA role in those teams will start bringing in $200M plus (potentially) in local revenue that will continue to drive the cap. That is coming from teams that were perennially near the Bills in terms of local (or non-shared) revenue. The gap closing between % of shared vs. % non-shared is not a good thing for the Bills. Yes, they are still profitable (now) but if that ever levels out and the cap starts to exceed the shared portion (or even take up a larger portion of it) it is a disaster for the Bills. The down ratings are not a good thing for us. If the NFL goes back in the next TV negotiation (unlikely but declining ratings don't help) it will hurt the Bills. They need to find a way to close some of that gap and a new stadium certainly accomplishes it. We are never going to be the Giants or the Cowboys but we could be the Panthers. I hear what you are saying, but the buffer is still in the tens of millions of dollars in profit even for the Bills. Who is going to spend for these top dollar new suites? DO you believe, as bandit does, that there is some secret stash of Buffalo or Toronto high rollers that Brandon has up his sleeve that is itching to dump tons of cash as long as the "amenities" are to their liking? Of course not... And then there is the fact that Pegula can personally close any gap out of pocket that may arise in the future---and that gets to the crux of this issue: public money for a stadium that may make him more money to cover a potential gap in the free money revenue from the league that he can certainly afford to close under any circumstances. It's wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 WEO, it's $300 TOTAL--not $300/year $30/year over 10 years Compared to the already outrageous types of taxes we pay, it's a drop in the bucket. Maybe we should be looking at more than just this opportunity to reduce tax burdens on all NYS citizens...though I suppose that's a discussion for another forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 (edited) WEO, it's $300 TOTAL--not $300/year $30/year over 10 years Compared to the already outrageous types of taxes we pay, it's a drop in the bucket. Maybe we should be looking at more than just this opportunity to reduce tax burdens on all NYS citizens...though I suppose that's a discussion for another forum Death by a thousand cuts. I already pay far too much in NYS taxes. Saying "hey, it's only another $30" is exactly how all of these wasteful projects get funded so easily by politicians.. This is a time proven huge waste of money based on the lack of return for the taxpayer and the lack of need for the recipient---therefore, this would be the most outrageous use of our money, hands down. Some idiot on here actually suggested taking the money from Medicaid to fund Terryworld. Edited March 28, 2017 by Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 I have in each response. Also, it's fine for you donate 300 tax $$ each year for who knows how long, because you were asked to by the Pegulas. But what if the majority of NYS taxpayers don't want to donate to the Pegulas business again? Who is doing the fighting--you mean the Pegula's should fight for theirs? The taxpayers? The latter group would not be fighting for "theirs". They get nothing new from this. Cuomo is sweating out the entire "Buffalo Billion" fiasco as it is mired in scandal. And the there's the solar city giveaway. I hear what you are saying, but the buffer is still in the tens of millions of dollars in profit even for the Bills. Who is going to spend for these top dollar new suites? DO you believe, as bandit does, that there is some secret stash of Buffalo or Toronto high rollers that Brandon has up his sleeve that is itching to dump tons of cash as long as the "amenities" are to their liking? Of course not... And then there is the fact that Pegula can personally close any gap out of pocket that may arise in the future---and that gets to the crux of this issue: public money for a stadium that may make him more money to cover a potential gap in the free money revenue from the league that he can certainly afford to close under any circumstances. It's wrong. Wrong or right, it is the norm and the precedent is there. I'm not coming from a standpoint of what "should" or "shouldn't" happen. I am talking about what "is" going to occur. In terms of selling higher priced seats, I certainly don't think it isn't an issue. I've said (as has bandit) we aren't talking about a ton more suites or much higher pricing. I would think that it may be 10-20 more in total with prices going up no more than 20%. The money will be made turning seats, at the 50 yard line, 20 rows up from $70 a ticket to closer to $200. Do I think that there are 40,000 people that will pay anywhere from $1000 a ticket to $2500 a ticket for the season in a new facility? Yeah, I think it's easy. The best amentities will match the best locations (which they don't currently) and the value will be there. That still leaves 25,000 season tickets below $100 a piece a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Wrong or right, it is the norm and the precedent is there. I'm not coming from a standpoint of what "should" or "shouldn't" happen. I am talking about what "is" going to occur. In terms of selling higher priced seats, I certainly don't think it isn't an issue. I've said (as has bandit) we aren't talking about a ton more suites or much higher pricing. I would think that it may be 10-20 more in total with prices going up no more than 20%. The money will be made turning seats, at the 50 yard line, 20 rows up from $70 a ticket to closer to $200. Do I think that there are 40,000 people that will pay anywhere from $1000 a ticket to $2500 a ticket for the season in a new facility? Yeah, I think it's easy. The best amentities will match the best locations (which they don't currently) and the value will be there. That still leaves 25,000 season tickets below $100 a piece a game. 40,000 would pay 1000-2500 for 8 games? Maybe (doubt there would be cheap seasons in the new stadium at under 100 a game). But if it was this easy, why wait? They could raise prices now to some degree no doubt. And why not try to match amenities to seats appropriately now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 40,000 would pay 1000-2500 for 8 games? Maybe (doubt there would be cheap seasons in the new stadium at under 100 a game). But if it was this easy, why wait? They could raise prices now to some degree no doubt. And why not try to match amenities to seats appropriately now? It is 10 games as every team that I have ever encountered charges for the preseason. In terms of the last part the infrastructure isn't there. In addition, you have people that have had seats in those locations for 40-50 years. You can't just double their price. People in sports NEVER downgrade locations. You can take my word on that. You will keep some and lose others and the Bills aren't in position to anger 8k (or so) people that they never see again. They need the clean slate of a new stadium for that cover. In my scenario (if down correctly) you could have 15,000 seats with $1k per year license fee (a little different than a PSL), and 25,000 that pay $500 a year. The tickets will then range from $50 a game to $150 a game (something like that). That alone would create $27.5M in non-shared revenue. The suite changes can generate another $5M. That's $33.5M of the $50M increase that I envision that they would hope to see. You can EASILY offset the rest with different sponsor opportunities. You keep the 25k at $100 or under and no one is being excluded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Death by a thousand cuts. I already pay far too much in NYS taxes. Saying "hey, it's only another $30" is exactly how all of these wasteful projects get funded so easily by politicians.. This is a time proven huge waste of money based on the lack of return for the taxpayer and the lack of need for the recipient---therefore, this would be the most outrageous use of our money, hands down. Some idiot on here actually suggested taking the money from Medicaid to fund Terryworld. There's your first mistake. Run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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