TheFunPolice Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 When has a CB, S or WR ever been seen as the guy who turned around a franchise's fortunes? Yeah, yeah it takes a team, etc. etc. Let's get real: The Bills don't have a top QB. You don't trade for top QBs because they are few and far between. You don't sign top QBs in free agency because nobody lets them go, aside from a freak occurrence once a decade or so: Brees then Peyton. You need to draft one and hit on the pick. But this whiny, weak, pathetic, loser attitude of "well we might miss guys! Wahhhhh!" Is why this team has gone nowhere in terms of wins and losses for a generation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 When has a CB, S or WR ever been seen as the guy who turned around a franchise's fortunes? Yeah, yeah it takes a team, etc. etc. Let's get real: The Bills don't have a top QB. You don't trade for top QBs because they are few and far between. You don't sign top QBs in free agency because nobody lets them go, aside from a freak occurrence once a decade or so: Brees then Peyton. You need to draft one and hit on the pick. But this whiny, weak, pathetic, loser attitude of "well we might miss guys! Wahhhhh!" Is why this team has gone nowhere in terms of wins and losses for a generation. This. The only reason you pass on qb to fill a hole at cb, lb, wr etc. is if you determine there are no potential franchise qbs available at #10. There is probably at least one, imo, and the Bills need to take a shot. Mahomes has the highest ceiling. I am not discounting the risk, but I'd roll the dice. I also like Watson and Trubisky. But fellas like Kiper's Hair who claim inside knowledge say they are doing the same "fill the holes" strategy that has resulted in nearly twenty years of failure. Franchise qb and good coaching makes up for a lot of misses. Get those two right and you are almost always in the conversation. Figure it out OBD and show some guts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 (edited) This. The only reason you pass on qb to fill a hole at cb, lb, wr etc. is if you determine there are no potential franchise qbs available at #10. There is probably at least one, imo, and the Bills need to take a shot. Mahomes has the highest ceiling. I am not discounting the risk, but I'd roll the dice. I also like Watson and Trubisky. But fellas like Kiper's Hair who claim inside knowledge say they are doing the same "fill the holes" strategy that has resulted in nearly twenty years of failure. Franchise qb and good coaching makes up for a lot of misses. Get those two right and you are almost always in the conversation. Figure it out OBD and show some guts. Weighing Pros and Cons for Mahomes: Pros: Elite, Once in a decade arm talent Very Good Accuracy Great Pocket Presence Fast Release Ability to Throw Off Balance/Different Platforms Ability to Throw on Move Good Movement in Pocket to Evade Rush Can Throw With Anticipation and Touch Can Go Through Progressions Can Manipulate Defenders With Eyes Field General Qualities Natural Athlete Not a running QB but can scramble for a 1st down Good Size Adequate Height Toughness Fiery Leader Loves Football Intelligent Swagger Cons: Played in Spread Offense Not used to calling out plays in huddle, will need to learn verbiage Not used to playing under center Very Raw in throwing under 3, 5, and 7 step drops Over Confident in Arm Sloppy, inconsistent footwork He checks so many boxes and few college QB's play under center in pro-style offenses. He does need to be reined in with a strong coaching staff. Edited April 5, 2017 by jeffismagic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HansLanda Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 Buyer Beware: http://thebiglead.com/2017/04/05/pat-mahomes-air-raid-nfl-draft/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 Buyer Beware: http://thebiglead.com/2017/04/05/pat-mahomes-air-raid-nfl-draft/ Perfect. That will keep the dinosaur thinking era team's ugly mitts off our boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 Weighing Pros and Cons for Mahomes: Pros: Elite, Once in a decade arm talent Very Good Accuracy Great Pocket Presence Fast Release Ability to Throw Off Balance/Different Platforms Ability to Throw on Move Good Movement in Pocket to Evade Rush Can Throw With Anticipation and Touch Can Go Through Progressions Can Manipulate Defenders With Eyes Field General Qualities Natural Athlete Not a running QB but can scramble for a 1st down Good Size Adequate Height Very Athletic Toughness Fiery Leader Loves Football Intelligent Swagger Cons: Played in Spread Offense Not used to calling out plays in huddle, will need to learn verbiage Not used to playing under center Very Raw in throwing under 3, 5, and 7 step drops Over Confident in Arm Sloppy, inconsistent footwork He checks so many boxes and few college QB's play under center in pro-style offenses. He does need to be reined in with a strong coaching staff. An impressive list of transferable traits that make Mahomes really intriguing. But, you know, a fella posts a link about the Air Raid offense and "buyer beware." Deep thought there. Did you know, Jeffismagic, that the Air Raid offense has never produced an NFL qb of merit? Like, no one has said that in this ginormous thread. Forget everything else. Forget that most Air Raid qbs are small, quick fellas like Johnny football or that individuals can actually learn and transcend the limits of a system, especially if they have rare, superior measurables. But for some, Air Raid = takes off list of draftable players or waits until a late round to chance it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 An impressive list of transferable traits that make Mahomes really intriguing. But, you know, a fella posts a link about the Air Raid offense and "buyer beware." Deep thought there. Did you know, Jeffismagic, that the Air Raid offense has never produced an NFL qb of merit? Like, no one has said that in this ginormous thread. Forget everything else. Forget that most Air Raid qbs are small, quick fellas like Johnny football or that individuals can actually learn and transcend the limits of a system, especially if they have rare, superior measurables. But for some, Air Raid = takes off list of draftable players or waits until a late round to chance it. It's true. Air Raid was for underdog schools who got the QB's no one else wanted. Nick Foles and Case Keenum not that impressive. But Air Raid is now getting Jared Goff, Patrick Mahomes, and Luke Falk type prospects so this way of thinking will soon be over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 It's true. Air Raid was for underdog schools who got the QB's no one else wanted. Nick Foles and Case Keenum not that impressive. But Air Raid is now getting Jared Goff, Patrick Mahomes, and Luke Falk type prospects so this way of thinking will soon be over. For once, OBD, get ahead of the curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billspro Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 Weighing Pros and Cons for Mahomes: Pros: Elite, Once in a decade arm talent Very Good Accuracy Great Pocket Presence Fast Release Ability to Throw Off Balance/Different Platforms Ability to Throw on Move Good Movement in Pocket to Evade Rush Can Throw With Anticipation and Touch Can Go Through Progressions Can Manipulate Defenders With Eyes Field General Qualities Natural Athlete Not a running QB but can scramble for a 1st down Good Size Adequate Height Toughness Fiery Leader Loves Football Intelligent Swagger Cons: Played in Spread Offense Not used to calling out plays in huddle, will need to learn verbiage Not used to playing under center Very Raw in throwing under 3, 5, and 7 step drops Over Confident in Arm Sloppy, inconsistent footwork He checks so many boxes and few college QB's play under center in pro-style offenses. He does need to be reined in with a strong coaching staff. I do have questions about his pocket movement and progression ability. He makes mistakes in those areas often, he does flash the ability to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 When has a CB, S or WR ever been seen as the guy who turned around a franchise's fortunes? Yeah, yeah it takes a team, etc. etc. Let's get real: The Bills don't have a top QB. You don't trade for top QBs because they are few and far between. You don't sign top QBs in free agency because nobody lets them go, aside from a freak occurrence once a decade or so: Brees then Peyton. You need to draft one and hit on the pick. But this whiny, weak, pathetic, loser attitude of "well we might miss guys! Wahhhhh!" Is why this team has gone nowhere in terms of wins and losses for a generation. I'm 100% with ya. Further in regards to Mahomes, from now until the draft, in the NFL media specifically, you will hear all sorts of reasons why Mahomes would be a reach or how crazy it would be for a team to draft him in the top 10. Yet if he were selected by the Cardinals at #13 it would get a total pass because of the love for Arians. If he were picked by the Giants, Steelers or Chiefs, it would be seen as a fantastic pick because he'll be the next franchise QB for that team in a year or two. If he's picked by the Texans, well, they needed a QB and he's got the highest ceiling...again, great pick! But we're talking about the QB position here...in the NFL...where the importance of the position to the success of an NFL franchise is about 70-80%. So knowing this, why would the spot where Mahomes was drafted in the 1st round even matter? The NFL media shouldn't be able to have it both ways. They can't love the pick to the Cardinals, but hate the pick to the Bills three spots earlier. Same for the other teams I mentioned, because of the huge importance of the position. If he'd be a great for the Giants, he should be a great pick for the Bills. My advice is to tune out the NFL media when it comes to talking about QBs, and Mahomes in particular. Because they talk out of both sides of their mouths and it seems like in mock drafts they're rooting for certain QBs to go to the places they want them to go to....and Buffalo is not a place where they want them to draft a great QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 I'll be honest... I have no idea who the best QB in this draft is... But I do want to see this team make getting a long term answer at QB a priority instead of acting like it's some kind of luxury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 When has a CB, S or WR ever been seen as the guy who turned around a franchise's fortunes? Yeah, yeah it takes a team, etc. etc. Let's get real: The Bills don't have a top QB. You don't trade for top QBs because they are few and far between. You don't sign top QBs in free agency because nobody lets them go, aside from a freak occurrence once a decade or so: Brees then Peyton. You need to draft one and hit on the pick. But this whiny, weak, pathetic, loser attitude of "well we might miss guys! Wahhhhh!" Is why this team has gone nowhere in terms of wins and losses for a generation. Of course none of this goes to prove that Mahomes should be the pick at 10. If only QB matters, then why not pick QB at every single pick until you get it right? No you can't just keep blindly taking QBs without logic behind it and that's really what you're saying here. You're basically defending the Manuel pick in 2013. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 Of course none of this goes to prove that Mahomes should be the pick at 10. If only QB matters, then why not pick QB at every single pick until you get it right? No you can't just keep blindly taking QBs without logic behind it and that's really what you're saying here. You're basically defending the Manuel pick in 2013. What a complete and utter non sequitur. No one has said "only QB matters." Some fellas think they are funny or are making a strong satiric point when they suggest taking 53 qbs, as if they were producing a reductio ad absurdam argument when they are merely being absurd. Franchise qb remains disproportionately important to success in the NFL. Obviously, one needs good players. One needs to fill "holes" as much as possible. Arguing for a priority to qb is not the same as dismissing other needs. Further, I don't see many folks saying one should "blindly" choose a qb. There are ample examples of those who have articulated a genuine argument as to why Mahomes could become a franchise qb. It's fine to disagree, but dishonest to pretend that those who advocate for taking a qb have not presented reasons why Mahomes, Trubisky, or Watson might be worthy of an early pick. It is not a proven certitude that this draft class is the same as 2013. I think it is clearly a better draft class. So, it is not "basically defending the Manuel pick" unless one presupposes this is a poor draft class at qb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 Of course none of this goes to prove that Mahomes should be the pick at 10. If only QB matters, then why not pick QB at every single pick until you get it right? No you can't just keep blindly taking QBs without logic behind it and that's really what you're saying here. You're basically defending the Manuel pick in 2013. I wholly defend the EJ pick in 2013. Was it a pick that worked out? Unquestionably not. Was it a smart pick at the time? Absolutely. If you don't have a franchise QB, and you believe that there's a guy available that can become one, then you're negligent if you don't pull the trigger on the guy. That's not to say you should pick a QB just for the sake of doing it...there's a major difference in the two statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan17 Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 I wholly defend the EJ pick in 2013. Was it a pick that worked out? Unquestionably not. Was it a smart pick at the time? Absolutely. If you don't have a franchise QB, and you believe that there's a guy available that can become one, then you're negligent if you don't pull the trigger on the guy. That's not to say you should pick a QB just for the sake of doing it...there's a major difference in the two statements. Not to stir this pot up, but EJ in ways had the one main flaw that all these guys have... RAW. Everyone knew coming put manuel was not supposed to start day one. Freak accident ultimately ended up rushing Manuel and despite playing well early, he just never was given a chance to develop correctly. None of these guys are day one starters and honestly none of them scream franchise material, enough so to take them tenth overall. I will state that the way the CBA is structured you can get out of under a bust at QB sooner, but you still are costing your self potential roster building blocks. One of the reasons Prescott looked so good last year, the strength of the roster around him. You can't blindly just continue to draft until you find one, but sitting on your hands never gets ya anywhere either. I firmly believe if you can get one of these guys in the second, then by all means. If not, turn your attention to next year's class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 Not to stir this pot up, but EJ in ways had the one main flaw that all these guys have... RAW. Everyone knew coming put manuel was not supposed to start day one. Freak accident ultimately ended up rushing Manuel and despite playing well early, he just never was given a chance to develop correctly. None of these guys are day one starters and honestly none of them scream franchise material, enough so to take them tenth overall. I will state that the way the CBA is structured you can get out of under a bust at QB sooner, but you still are costing your self potential roster building blocks. One of the reasons Prescott looked so good last year, the strength of the roster around him. You can't blindly just continue to draft until you find one, but sitting on your hands never gets ya anywhere either. I firmly believe if you can get one of these guys in the second, then by all means. If not, turn your attention to next year's class. I understand what you're saying; here's my issue: your final sentence falls into the "taking a QB just for the sake of it" category IMO. That, to me, is wasting a pick. I only take a QB if I think he's got franchise upside; otherwise I'm moving on to best player available at a key position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billspro Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 I wholly defend the EJ pick in 2013. Was it a pick that worked out? Unquestionably not. Was it a smart pick at the time? Absolutely. If you don't have a franchise QB, and you believe that there's a guy available that can become one, then you're negligent if you don't pull the trigger on the guy. That's not to say you should pick a QB just for the sake of doing it...there's a major difference in the two statements. I have no problem with it either. They bet on EJ's character and intangibles and lost. His failure had nothing to do with his work ethic, EJ gave everthing he could to become a franchise guy, he just didn't have the stuff. Keep drafting until we hit one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 ....don't get to see college football.....but most of the "pundits" have Mahomes in the middle of the pack in the "Top 10 2017 QB Draft Prospects"......anybody help me out here as to why?.....seems like they all have flaws....Watson's red flag was ball velocity....Mitch's is "one year starter"......so why is Pat a seemingly big favorite here?............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 (edited) I also have no issue with the EJ pick. You have to try. It didn't work out, so you just need to try again. There is one way to end up with an exciting young QB: draft QBs. Saying you need a QB to succeed in this league is not the same thing as saying "only QB matters." You are only going to win in this league if you can score 30 points vs. the top teams. Denver had a scary defense for maybe 2 years. Seattle for 2-3 years before it got picked apart. Those are not sustainable models. Many people here want to shoot for the KC/ CIN model: have a balanced great roster, good coach, and a mediocre QB. Win 11 games and lose in the divisional round. The KC/ Cincy model ends one way: eventually the roster gets picked apart in free agency and the window closes without ever getting anywhere. The Bengals went from a super talented roster that was a broken thumb away from maybe even giving NE a game to being just plain bad. Edited April 5, 2017 by TheFunPolice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan17 Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 I understand what you're saying; here's my issue: your final sentence falls into the "taking a QB just for the sake of it" category IMO. That, to me, is wasting a pick. I only take a QB if I think he's got franchise upside; otherwise I'm moving on to best player available at a key position. My thing is, that is where their value is to me. A guy who I projected to be a few years away, but isn't as developmental as a lower round pick. Also has a higher upside with a better chance to reach said upside. We are starting to see it a bit more where people at finding starters outside of the first round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts