SWATeam Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Seriously? You can't make that connection? Are you stoned again? Because it sounds like you're stoned again. Hint- there is no connection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Seriously? You can't make that connection? Are you stoned again? Because it sounds like you're stoned again. Do you have a salient anti pot message to relay or would you like to talk about Heroin as well ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) I just couldn't disagree more. Drug dealers offer and sell what people want. Are you telling me just because these mythical dealers have heroin more people are going to want it? If you got to your weed guy for weed and he offers you heroin you aren't buying it. If you want heroin you find someone who has heroin. The cartels may decide to push heroin or they may decide to push other illicit drugs or they may get into something else altogether. If you think the demand for heroin is anywhere in the same neighborhood as the demand for weed then you are just wrong. Nearly half (49%) of Americans say they have tried marijuana, and 12% in the past year, which the 2012 National Survey on Drug Use and Health says is the most commonly used illicit drug in the U.S. The government survey showed that 18.9 million Americans 12 or older (7.3%) had used marijuana in the prior month. 3.8 million people (1.5 percent of the population above 12) say they have tried heroin at least once in their lifetimes. Ask yourself this, if marijuana were legalized nationwide do you think the economic impact would be in the billions? If heroin were legalized do you think the economic impact would even be in the 100 million range? Heroin is much more dangerous and stigmatized (rightfully so) which is why you don't see rallies to legalize heroin. There isn't a heroin subculture like there is with weed. People hide the fact that they do heroin. Heroin and weed being the same schedule is an embarrassment and undermines the anti-drug sentiment. It is really hard to take people seriously when they argue that marijuana and heroin are equally as damaging. If you do heroin 3 times, do you think there has perhaps been a demand generated for the 4th batch? Geez dude. Do you have a salient anti pot message to relay or would you like to talk about Heroin as well ? It's really more about business than it is about pot or heroin, although they're both part of it. Hint- there is no connection Hint? Another word for hint is clue. Until you have one you shouldn't really hand them out. You'll be at a deficit. Edited November 17, 2016 by 4merper4mer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 If you do heroin 3 times, do you think there has perhaps been a demand generated for the 4th batch? Geez dude. It's really more about business than it is about pot or heroin, although they're both part of it. What? Ask yourself why would they do it the first 3 times? Simply because there dealer had it? Do you think people are just not trying heroin because they can't find it? Are they not doing it because "the cartel" has been pushing weed and not heroin? What is your argument? That weed should stay legal so heroin doesn't become a worse epidemic? Heroin is an epidemic right now because this country has a serious prescription pill problem. That is where the issue lies. Not with weed or the idea of weed legalization. I just want to add that if you do crack or meth 3 times you'll likely go back for more. That has absolutely nothing to do with anything. It just further drives home the point that heroin and marijuana are completely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 What? Ask yourself why would they do it the first 3 times? Simply because there dealer had it? Do you think people are just not trying heroin because they can't find it? Are they not doing it because "the cartel" has been pushing weed and not heroin? What is your argument? That weed should stay legal so heroin doesn't become a worse epidemic? Heroin is an epidemic right now because this country has a serious prescription pill problem. That is where the issue lies. Not with weed or the idea of weed legalization. I just want to add that if you do crack or meth 3 times you'll likely go back for more. That has absolutely nothing to do with anything. It just further drives home the point that heroin and marijuana are completely different. Your argument is all over the place. Let's see if I can help a little bit: What is the drug dealer most interested in? Selling pot? Nope. Selling heroin? Nope. Profit? yup. What does competition do to margins? Increase them? nope? So if you were a drug dealer interested in profit margin, what would you do if faced with lots of new competition? You'd do what you always do, move toward superior margins. That can't come from increasing prices any more. It will be tough to decrease costs too although there could be some of that. So you diversify. And do you diversify into a field that has a lot of competition or one with less? Duh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWATeam Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Your argument is all over the place. Let's see if I can help a little bit: What is the drug dealer most interested in? Selling pot? Nope. Selling heroin? Nope. Profit? yup. What does competition do to margins? Increase them? nope? So if you were a drug dealer interested in profit margin, what would you do if faced with lots of new competition? You'd do what you always do, move toward superior margins. That can't come from increasing prices any more. It will be tough to decrease costs too although there could be some of that. So you diversify. And do you diversify into a field that has a lot of competition or one with less? Duh. Amazing analysis! "Diversify" into a product that is absolutely flooded with supply and dirt cheap (heroin). Brilliant! Stick to what your good at Crayonz, troll threads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Amazing analysis! "Diversify" into a product that is absolutely flooded with supply and dirt cheap (heroin). Brilliant! Stick to what your good at Crayonz, troll threads Please try to answer the following two questions: What do you think people currently selling illegal marijuana would do if it became legal? Define dirt cheap in business terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWATeam Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Please try to answer the following two questions: What do you think people currently selling illegal marijuana would do if it became legal? Define dirt cheap in business terms. I'm sure they will all switch to heroin, which people will be forced to use... Who knows or cares? Maybe they will get real jobs or join the circus? I can only imagine the amazing discussions back in the day over alcohol prohibition. Chef, could you imagine no California wine industry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Your argument is all over the place. Let's see if I can help a little bit: What is the drug dealer most interested in? Selling pot? Nope. Selling heroin? Nope. Profit? yup. What does competition do to margins? Increase them? nope? So if you were a drug dealer interested in profit margin, what would you do if faced with lots of new competition? You'd do what you always do, move toward superior margins. That can't come from increasing prices any more. It will be tough to decrease costs too although there could be some of that. So you diversify. And do you diversify into a field that has a lot of competition or one with less? Duh. I agree that if their pot sales are minimized they will move to a different product. However you see a ton of money going into anti-marijuana funding. That is their first step. They would like to hold on to this cash cow for as long as possible. What I don't agree with is the (preposterous) idea that because they can no longer sell weed they will sell heroin and enjoy the same level of profitability. As I posted earlier the demands are the same. Are you really theorizing that if marijuana is legal more people will move to heroin? People don't smoke weed because they want to run afoul of the law. They smoke weed because they enjoy it. That is why the demand is so high. There won't be some magical uptick in demand for heroin if marijuana is made legal. Please try to answer the following two questions: What do you think people currently selling illegal marijuana would do if it became legal? Define dirt cheap in business terms. Do you know what the punishment for selling weed is vs selling heroin? Do you really think if people couldn't illegally sell weed anymore (they still could sell it though) they would move to a more dangerous substance with a higher criminal penalty just because? Here is some good reading if you actually want to be informed on the issue. The price is cheap -- sometimes as low as $5. Some dealers also offer incentives -- buy 10 balloons and get one free. An 80 mg OxyContin pill has a street value of $80 to $110, Utah County Health Department substance abuse division director Richard Nance said. Nance says OxyContin and other prescription opiates are often "gateway" drugs that lead to heroin use. First, a doctor may cut off an OxyContin addict's prescription, then the money runs out buying the pills on the street, and then a dealer is quick to offer the cheaper heroin. Users of marijuana or spice are far less likely to move on to heroin. "Most people who like alcohol, like alcohol. Most people who like pot, like pot. Stick a needle in your arm, though, it's almost like crossing a point of no return," Nance said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Now tie in for me how pot comes into play? Already have. Several times. I just couldn't disagree more. Drug dealers offer and sell what people want. Are you telling me just because these mythical dealers have heroin more people are going to want it? If you got to your weed guy for weed and he offers you heroin you aren't buying it. If you want heroin you find someone who has heroin. The cartels may decide to push heroin or they may decide to push other illicit drugs or they may get into something else altogether. If you think the demand for heroin is anywhere in the same neighborhood as the demand for weed then you are just wrong. Drug dealers also push what they have. Do you think people one day just woke up and said "hmmm, I feel like doing heroin. I think I'll try to find me some." No someone gave them some to try and they liked it did some more and before they knew it they were hooked. Who do you think some of these people are that gave them some to try? Yup the dealers. Some of the heroin addiction is from people that got hooked on opiates but some is from people who just gave it a try because it was offered. There is nothing in the world better to sell than something that is addictive. I never said the demand was weed and heroin are the same. I'm saying the use of heroin is increasing because of the black market. Once pot is no longer a viable black market product those that dean in the black market are going to find something else to push and in many cases it's become heroin. Hint- there is no connection Yeah there is. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/losing-marijuana-business-mexican-cartels-push-heroin-and-meth/2015/01/11/91fe44ce-8532-11e4-abcf-5a3d7b3b20b8_story.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Being able to get pot in a Starbucks type setting removes the dealer from the picture. It's pills that generally lead to heroin, not the availability of heroin. Clamp down on the friggin' pills! Virtually nobody starts with heroin. It's a last resort when the pills are no longer available. Now, pot users will in some cases end up on pills which gets them a step closer to heroin. There is no absolute rule, but there is a common path (with which I am unfortunately all too familiar). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 Being able to get pot in a Starbucks type setting removes the dealer from the picture. It's pills that generally lead to heroin, not the availability of heroin. Clamp down on the friggin' pills! Virtually nobody starts with heroin. It's a last resort when the pills are no longer available. Now, pot users will in some cases end up on pills which gets them a step closer to heroin. There is no absolute rule, but there is a common path (with which I am unfortunately all too familiar). I disagree. Drug dealers are nasty mother!@#$ers. Heroin addiction is nothing new. It may be due to the prescription opiates now but what caused the heroin addiction in the 50's and 60's? There wasn't a prescription drug problem then as there is now. Once again the best product to sell is something people like and is addictive. You control the prescription drugs in the country you're not solving the heroin problem. And don't ask me how I'd suggest we get rid of the heroin problem. I don't have the answer to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 I disagree. Drug dealers are nasty mother!@#$ers. Heroin addiction is nothing new. It may be due to the prescription opiates now but what caused the heroin addiction in the 50's and 60's? There wasn't a prescription drug problem then as there is now. Once again the best product to sell is something people like and is addictive. You control the prescription drugs in the country you're not solving the heroin problem. And don't ask me how I'd suggest we get rid of the heroin problem. I don't have the answer to that. We agree that drug dealers are nasty mother%#@*&! How many heroin addicts have you asked about this? My son works as an admissions counselor in a very large and renowned addiction and mental health facility. He personally admits dozens of people a month. He has been on the other side too, and we've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars getting him to this point in his life. He gets letters from people who literally say "you saved my life". I'm pretty confident in my position based upon our own experience and conversations with my son. Is this always the way it works? Of course not, but it's pretty common. If you're drug of choice is an opiod you are likely to end up on heroin at some point. Many, many people smoke pot and never move past it, despite what their pot provider may have in the closet. They are almost ALL repulsed by the thought of heroin, until they can't get an opiod fix in any other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 For those looking for a silver lining in the weed legalization trend happening across America: With the legalization of weed in California, it is likely that the demand for weed imported from other countries (especially Mexico) will eventually decline. One thing that Americans are exceptionally good at is agriculture. We should expect California to become a world leader in the production of Marijuana relatively rapidly. And with it, drive the cost down to a point where it disincentivizes illegal drug smuggling from other countries. At some point California will probably be exporting high quality Ganja to the rest of the world where American quality product is in demand. There will still be plenty of bootleg/contraband/black market weed circulating in the US. But, that weed will more likely be sourced from states where it is grown legally rather than sourced from drug cartels in foreign countries. Yay for free market economics! In Seattle now I can buy weed legally at a store for less than the black market price pre legalization. And, I don't have to buy it from a criminal. Win/Win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 I disagree. Drug dealers are nasty mother!@#$ers. Heroin addiction is nothing new. It may be due to the prescription opiates now but what caused the heroin addiction in the 50's and 60's? There wasn't a prescription drug problem then as there is now. Once again the best product to sell is something people like and is addictive. You control the prescription drugs in the country you're not solving the heroin problem. And don't ask me how I'd suggest we get rid of the heroin problem. I don't have the answer to that. I'm not trying to go to battle over this by any means (not my style and it's just not worth it), but I just checked with my son. I don't know how people got in to it in the 50's or 60's, but he says today 99.9999% of people get hooked on pills before using heroin. This is coming from someone who was either in and out of treatment or working at a treatment facility for the better part of the last decade. This is not conjecture or anecdotal evidence. I know for a fact the first step in battling heroin is to clamp down on the pills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWATeam Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 In Seattle now I can buy weed legally at a store for less than the black market price pre legalization. And, I don't have to buy it from a criminal. Win/Win.Unfortunately, those criminals will now be selling heroin which you will be forced to buy and use... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 We agree that drug dealers are nasty mother%#@*&! How many heroin addicts have you asked about this? My son works as an admissions counselor in a very large and renowned addiction and mental health facility. He personally admits dozens of people a month. He has been on the other side too, and we've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars getting him to this point in his life. He gets letters from people who literally say "you saved my life". I'm pretty confident in my position based upon our own experience and conversations with my son. Is this always the way it works? Of course not, but it's pretty common. If you're drug of choice is an opiod you are likely to end up on heroin at some point. Many, many people smoke pot and never move past it, despite what their pot provider may have in the closet. They are almost ALL repulsed by the thought of heroin, until they can't get an opiod fix in any other way. Glad to hear your son was able to clean himself up. However talking about pot smokers traditioning info heroin shows you don't know what my point is. I hope you don't think my position is that pot use leads to heroin use I'm not trying to go to battle over this by any means (not my style and it's just not worth it), but I just checked with my son. I don't know how people got in to it in the 50's or 60's, but he says today 99.9999% of people get hooked on pills before using heroin. This is coming from someone who was either in and out of treatment or working at a treatment facility for the better part of the last decade. This is not conjecture or anecdotal evidence. I know for a fact the first step in battling heroin is to clamp down on the pills. I get that. I'm not talking about how people get addicted. My point is now that pot is becoming legal the streets are getting flooded with heroin and meth to take its place. Unfortunately, those criminals will now be selling heroin which you will be forced to buy and use... You're right. They have moved on to Mary Kay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 (edited) Glad to hear your son was able to clean himself up. However talking about pot smokers traditioning info heroin shows you don't know what my point is. I hope you don't think my position is that pot use leads to heroin use I get that. I'm not talking about how people get addicted. My point is now that pot is becoming legal the streets are getting flooded with heroin and meth to take its place. First, thank you. His little brother is a CPA and we are no more proud of him. Life can be an amazing ride. No, I'm not saying pot leads to heroin. It can on rare occasions lead to other things that may lead to heroin, but that's a stretch. It happened to my best friends son (a chronic smoker for may years), but that''s rare. And the streets are already flooded. Might there be more emphasis to push it? Maybe, but there has to be demand. Edited November 18, 2016 by Augie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWATeam Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 Chef Jim, I'd like to hear your take on alcohol prohibition. Do you think alcohol should be legal? Did the end of prohabition not hurt the mob? I know your a California guy, could you imagine no California wine industry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 Already have. Several times. Drug dealers also push what they have. Do you think people one day just woke up and said "hmmm, I feel like doing heroin. I think I'll try to find me some." No someone gave them some to try and they liked it did some more and before they knew it they were hooked. Who do you think some of these people are that gave them some to try? Yup the dealers. Some of the heroin addiction is from people that got hooked on opiates but some is from people who just gave it a try because it was offered. There is nothing in the world better to sell than something that is addictive. I never said the demand was weed and heroin are the same. I'm saying the use of heroin is increasing because of the black market. Once pot is no longer a viable black market product those that dean in the black market are going to find something else to push and in many cases it's become heroin. Yeah there is. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/losing-marijuana-business-mexican-cartels-push-heroin-and-meth/2015/01/11/91fe44ce-8532-11e4-abcf-5a3d7b3b20b8_story.html As to the bolded, I think you are wrong. I think Augie is spot on. I am basing my opinion on knowing people who unfortunately slipped into heroin addiction, talking with police officers, as well as a substance abuse counselor. I asked this question of all of them because it is so unthinkable to me. I always wondered who decides to just take up heroin. Every single one of them stated it is never the intention to abuse heroin. People get a prescription for an opiod and then get hooked. When they can't get their hands on a script they turn to the cheaper alternative. Heroin use is not increasing due to availability it is increasing due to the prescription drug problem this country turns a blind eye to. From your own linked article: the sticky brown and black “tar” heroin they produce is channeled by traffickers into the U.S. communities hit hardest by prescription painkiller abuse, offering addicts a $10 alternative to $80-a-pill oxycodone. later: The United States has an estimated 600,000 heroin users, Payne said — a threefold increase in the past five years. But that number is dwarfed by the estimated 10 million Americans who abuse prescription painkillers. Those addicts are the prime target for the booming heroin business. A U.S. crackdown on prescription opiates has driven up the price for drugs such as OxyContin and Percocet, enticing desperate addicts to switch to cheap heroin to fend off withdrawal symptoms. later still: “Now, we’re seeing housewives coming in who had been addicted to Vicodin for two or three years before switching to heroin, Augie hits the nail on the head. There has to be a demand for heroin. Increasing supply will do nothing but decrease cost. People won't just try heroin there is almost always a pre-existing addiction that is replaced by heroin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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