Gilmore Thread

[Jerry Jabber]

 

Actually, the corners played very well against Brady last year--it was the safeties and LBs that got victimized repeatedly in game 1. Try watching the games.

 

It seems the only argument you have is that the corners didn't play well against the Jets. Nice work.

 

As for against elite QBs--you seem to have forgotten what they did to Aaron Rodgers and pre-dead-arm Peyton Manning in back-to-back weeks in 2014, but nice job trying to marginalize the stats that you asked for

 

Oh, so it's everyone else's fault except the CB's...right! Brady scored 40 points in their first matchup only against the front seven?

 

You just keep avoiding the fact that the CB's (including Gilmore) were badly burned against Ryan Fitzpatrick.

 

Peyton had a torn quad and played like crap ever since. With Aaron Rodgers, I remember the front seven dominating that game, not the CB's. But please, keep grasping at straws.

[3rdand12]

RE: the Torrey Smith play, based on the front-7 look and the pre-snap coverage look, I'm guessing that the called coverage was 46 Zorro (from Rex's playbook).

 

If I'm correct, then that means that the inside corner (Gilmore) has the Curl Flat assignment, and that it's Cover 3, with Darby and the 2 safeties taking the deep 1/3. See the upper-right frame below:

 

Thanks Bandito !

very much appreciated. Knowledge is good.

 

One of the reasons i am rarely definitive in my hot takes. I do not know enough football.

I do know what i see, but like in life there is often more to the picture

[Blokestradamus]

Toasted?

Beat.

 

as i said, it happens to all CBs.

How about all of Ronalds excellent tackles Sunday? Shall we compare them to Gilmore? Kid plays the whole game

 

If Kaepernick hits that throw, it's 100% on Darby. Yet I've not seen a single thing about the kid in a negative light. The views on the corners from Bills fans is heavily weighted to things that don't particularly matter.

 

Sure, he tackles better. I'm not paying my corners for run support though. I'm paying them to cover primarily and Gilmore's doing a better job of that this season.

[section122]

 

If Kaepernick hits that throw, it's 100% on Darby. Yet I've not seen a single thing about the kid in a negative light. The views on the corners from Bills fans is heavily weighted to things that don't particularly matter.

 

Sure, he tackles better. I'm not paying my corners for run support though. I'm paying them to cover primarily and Gilmore's doing a better job of that this season.

It's because Darby isn't due for a new contract

[thebandit27]

 

Oh, so it's everyone else's fault except the CB's...right! Brady scored 40 points in their first matchup only against the front seven?

 

You just keep avoiding the fact that the CB's (including Gilmore) were badly burned against Ryan Fitzpatrick.

 

Peyton had a torn quad and played like crap ever since. With Aaron Rodgers, I remember the front seven dominating that game, not the CB's. But please, keep grasping at straws.

Watch

The

Games

 

Brady did all of his damage on the interior.

Manning was playing well against every other team

The Bills had one sack all game against Rodgers--he even complained in the media about the Bills' corners roughing up the Packers' receivers.

 

YOU are the one grasping, as every single factual point I make that contradicts your crusade is met with some attempt to marginalize the facts.

 

And once again, we're back to "but Fitzpatrick!!!!" as the foundation of your argument.

 

Yes, they played poorly against the Jets. Now please acknowledge that you're basing your opinion on a single game as opposed to the remainder of the guy's 5-year career.

[3rdand12]

I too think they use the tag on him this year and I am perfectly okay with that. I think that the idea of using the tag on him was why it was so important to get the Tyrod restructure done before the start of the year. Although I don't think Gilmore is worth top 5 money, for 1 year I wouldn't be mad. A long term top 5 money deal would, imo, be a bad business decision.

 

Your post reads as though he needs to be top 5 to be elite and I don't think that is the case. He can be borderline elite/ very good and still not worth top 5 money. Unfortunately the money will likely bear a top 5 contract for him. Some team with a ton of cap space will throw a big deal at him (if not franchised) and he will likely take it. 16 teams have more than 38 million in cap space for the upcoming year.

 

Also your links have not done much for your argument. One had Gilmore as the 11th best cb (at least 2 of the guys on the list haven't played well this year), and the other is from so long ago it has Peanut Tillman (who has since retired) as one of the top cbs in the league.

Thats what I was watching too. Smart play by the Bills.

I agree with you on the future.

 

Would the Bills move forward with C White and K Seymour next year?

Just thinking out loud.

 

Well then someone screwed up! I say we lop of a finger from both of them - that'll teach 'em...

which finger ?

[Alaska Darin]

Exactly! Re-watch the play and notice how Gilmore gave an "OH SHIIT" head movement the moment he moved forward and the receiver blew by him.

 

Also, Aaron Williams should have had him tackled in the flat. That's what a SAFETY is for!!!

 

Lastly, for those saying this touchdown didn't matter, the 49ers took the lead with that play and the game was still an unknown outcome. I was furious with that play and it "could" have been a turning point. I'm glad it wasn't, but playing like that against the Patriots, Steelers, or Seahawks will not get it done!

If your team loses a game because of a play early in the second quarter, then you're not a very good team.

[Blokestradamus]

It's because Darby isn't due for a new contract

 

As I said earlier. I'm already looking forward to 2018 when people suddenly turn on Darby too.

[3rdand12]

 

If Kaepernick hits that throw, it's 100% on Darby. Yet I've not seen a single thing about the kid in a negative light. The views on the corners from Bills fans is heavily weighted to things that don't particularly matter.

 

Sure, he tackles better. I'm not paying my corners for run support though. I'm paying them to cover primarily and Gilmore's doing a better job of that this season.

well you are not paying them at all.

 

But I was not the one to begin the comparisons. and you are getting defensive. and turned you anger towards Darby who is a fine young corner.

and yea I watch the games.

How many first down has Gilmore allowed by not breaking down and getting back to ball? hard to measure i am sure but it happens too much for me.

 

 

lets not take this any further Blokes.

 

 

As I said earlier. I'm already looking forward to 2018 when people suddenly turn on Darby too.

why ? why would you say something so harsh

[thebandit27]

Oh, and before we all pile on Darby for blowing his assignment, Richard Sherman made almost the exact same mistake yesterday, and it resulted in a Julio Jones TD

[Blokestradamus]

well you are not paying them at all.

 

But I was not the one to begin the comparisons. and you are getting defensive. and turned you anger towards Darby who is a fine young corner.

and yea I watch the games.

How many first down has Gilmore allowed by not breaking down and getting back to ball? hard to measure i am sure but it happens too much for me.

 

 

lets not take this any further Blokes.

 

why ? why would you say something so harsh

 

I'm not "turning" on Darby at all, just being objective. If people are watching the All-22, they see the mistakes he's made this year. He's a decent corner but some think he's done no wrong. The disproportion of criticism is what I'm taking issue with, everything Gilmore does is under the most ridiculous spotlight yet Darby gets off for some reason. It's just stupid and people are clinging to their pre-conceived agendas without being objective.

 

Gilmore isn't without fault. I think I've made my frustration with aspects of his game pretty clear. I pride myself on being balanced, especially now I'm getting paid to cover the team. I've given praise to guys like O'Leary and Mills, guys that I felt over the summer and through preseason had no place on an NFL roster. I can't keep going through this circus, it's killing my passion for the team.

[Herb62]

I'm in LA from Buffalo and following the Bills and Rams. T. Johnson is the Rams shut down corner and he is worth all of it. When I watch both he is far superior than Gilmore. Don't waste the money draft a CB instead.

[3rdand12]

 

I'm not "turning" on Darby at all, just being objective. If people are watching the All-22, they see the mistakes he's made this year. He's a decent corner but some think he's done no wrong. The disproportion of criticism is what I'm taking issue with, everything Gilmore does is under the most ridiculous spotlight yet Darby gets off for some reason. It's just stupid and people are clinging to their pre-conceived agendas without being objective.

 

Gilmore isn't without fault. I think I've made my frustration with aspects of his game pretty clear. I pride myself on being balanced, especially now I'm getting paid to cover the team. I've given praise to guys like O'Leary and Mills, guys that I felt over the summer and through preseason had no place on an NFL roster. I can't keep going through this circus, it's killing my passion for the team.

O Leary is treat. Patience has shown worth the wait.

Mills has balanced himself well. So many positives !!

I'm in LA from Buffalo and following the Bills and Rams. T. Johnson is the Rams shut down corner and he is worth all of it. When I watch both he is far superior than Gilmore. Don't waste the money draft a CB instead.

Wish i watched more of him last week !

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Oh, and before we all pile on Darby for blowing his assignment, Richard Sherman made almost the exact same mistake yesterday, and it resulted in a Julio Jones TD

Are we sure it was shermans fault? 😎

[Jerry Jabber]

Watch

The

Games

 

Brady did all of his damage on the interior.

Manning was playing well against every other team

The Bills had one sack all game against Rodgers--he even complained in the media about the Bills' corners roughing up the Packers' receivers.

 

YOU are the one grasping, as every single factual point I make that contradicts your crusade is met with some attempt to marginalize the facts.

 

And once again, we're back to "but Fitzpatrick!!!!" as the foundation of your argument.

 

Yes, they played poorly against the Jets. Now please acknowledge that you're basing your opinion on a single game as opposed to the remainder of the guy's 5-year career.

I do watch the games, but I'm not a fan-boy and love and defend certain players to death. I call it as I see it. The way I see it, Gilmore is overrated (Good, but not great).

 

So you're saying the Bills CB's only cover the outside and deep passes and never anything over the middle? Give me a break!

 

Manning played like crap since the Bills game when he tore his quad.

 

You like to keep ignoring the Jets game and that the Bills secondary got lit up by an erratic QB who looked like a HOF against the Bills. That was an embarrassment!!! Professional sports is "what have you done lately" not what you did years ago.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Jerry Jabber

[thebandit27]

I do watch the games, but I'm not a fan-boy and love and defend certain players to death. I call it as I see it. The way I see it, Gilmore is overrated (Good, but not great).

 

 

Just keep throwing out insults instead of backing up your claim; I promise it's working really well. I'm sure 100% of the folks reading this thread are being won over to your POV.

 

 

 

So you're saying the Bills CB's only cover the outside and deep passes and never anything over the middle? Give me a break!

 

 

Nope. Once again, watch the games. An astute fan would know what happened out there, but thankfully, for those that aren't great at identifying what's happening on the field, here's the information:

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/ne-buf-grades-brady-carves-up-bills-patriots-dominate-in-trenches/

 

"The one bright spot was rookie CB Ronald Darby (+1.1), who allowed only three catches on nine targets for 48 yards, and even won a few battles against Gronkowski."

"CB Stephon Gilmore (-2.2) only surrendered eight official catches for 57 yards"

 

Reminder that Brady completed 38 passes for 466 yards. Apparently 11 of those 38 completions and 105 of those 466 yards (and zero TDs) came against the corners.

 

So yes, apparently Brady completed 27 passes for 361 yards and 3 TDs against guys that aren't Gilmore and Darby.

 

 

 

Manning played like crap since the Bills game when he tore his quad.

 

So we're back to marginalizing the good performances in order to make your point?

 

Manning threw for 817 yards in the 3 games following the Bills game. In fact, his 3rd-highest full-game QB rating of 2014 came in the very next game against SD, in which he complete 70% of his throws en route to an easy victory.

 

Oh, and since I know "SD sucks!!11!!1!" is the next thing coming, let me head that off right now: they had the No. 4 ranked pass defense in 2014, one spot behind Buffalo.

 

 

You like to keep ignoring the Jets game and that the Bills secondary got lit up by an erratic QB who looked like a HOF against the Bills.

 

If you believe that, then I'm afraid you simply don't know how to read. The corners were flat-out bad in the Jets game, as I've said both in this thread and in the Gilmore thread that followed the Jets' game (which I'm sure you didn't see, because you keep ignorantly banging the "fan boy" drum). What I am saying, for about the 12th time, is that one game should not carry more weight than a 5-year career. For you, somehow, it does, and frankly that's a very poor analytical method.

 

 

Professional sports is "what have you done lately" not what you did years ago.

 

Says the guy that posted a PFF grade on Gilmore that dates back 4 years as his first source

Edited October 17, 2016 by thebandit27

[YoloinOhio]

 

Well then someone screwed up! I say we lop of a finger from both of them - that'll teach 'em...

electric chair IMO

[P51]

 

Thanks.

 

Regarding the bold, I'll say only this (since my browser won't let me post the image from the playbook that shows it quite clearly): watch the immediate post-snap action of each corner and LB. There's only one guy that isn't playing man coverage, so it stands to reason that he's the one that screwed up.

 

I'll be watching the All-22 when it comes out, and I'll also be paying specific attention to what guys like @yardsperpass and Cover-1 have to say...I'll put my money down that they agree with me on this one.

 

 

Well would you look at this?

 

YardsPerPass.com ‏@YardsPerPass 21h21 hours ago

I watched the Smith TD again, looks like Gilmore was in man and Darby in zone... Again without knowing the play we don't know who messed up

 

Again, everyone was in man...except Darby.

 

 

So Darby blew it

Man coverage

 

Thread over

 

 

 

Nope--Darby played zone while the rest of the cover guys (corners and LBs) played man.

 

My money is on Darby's mistake.

 

 

I think you and mike are right and ypp.com needs to look a little deeper.

 

* I do not know the play call *

 

I played CB/SS (through 1AA under a great secondary coach) and have coached the secondary before (at the high school level), this is primarily Darby's fault all day IMO. He's not in zone (it doesnt make sense), there is no way watching the other players, AW is the SHS, Z. Brown Band is either a spy or a zone defender(possible robber concept), everyone else is manning up, head up on their coverage responsibility (Graham on the TE, P. Brown on the RB, R-C on the slot/Kerley and so on) and covers that guy post snap. I'd bet AW was peaking in the backfield or at something he shouldnt be, his single responsibility looking at it presnap and what happened post snap was to not let anyone get over the top of him (should be), and especially T. Smith... Which makes me believe secondarily he is culpable as well. Even if Darby was playing some sort of zone from that far off, it should still be his primary responsibility to cover the deep field.

 

p.s. I dont know the defensive play call, but roughly 20 years of secondary related experience tells me #28 and #23 were the responsible parties on this play not #24. Seconds 11-18 of the youtube video link sums all of this up, the all 22 should confirm it. Thats my .02...

Edited October 17, 2016 by P51

[thebandit27]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think you and mike are right and ypp.com needs to look a little deeper.

 

* I do not know the play call *

 

I played CB/SS (through 1AA under a great secondary coach) and have coached the secondary before (at the high school level), this is primarily Darby's fault all day IMO. He's not in zone (it doesnt make sense), there is no way watching the other players, AW is the SHS, Z. Brown Band is either a spy or a zone defender(possible robber concept), everyone else is manning up, head up on their coverage responsibility (Graham on the TE, P. Brown on the RB, R-C on the slot/Kerley and so on) and covers that guy post snap. I'd bet AW was peaking in the backfield or at something he shouldnt be, his single responsibility looking at it presnap and what happened post snap was to not let anyone get over the top of him (should be), and especially T. Smith... Which makes me believe secondarily he is culpable as well. Even if Darby was playing some sort of zone from that far off, it should still be his primary responsibility to cover the deep field.

 

p.s. I dont know the defensive play call, but roughly 20 years of secondary related experience tells me #28 and #23 were the responsible parties on this play not #24. Seconds 11-18 of the youtube video link sums all of this up, the all 22 should confirm it. Thats my .02...

 

This is, down to the word, the exact same breakdown of responsibilities that I saw, so I'm 100% confident in your contribution's accuracy.

 

Thanks for chiming in!

[P51]

I'm in LA from Buffalo and following the Bills and Rams. T. Johnson is the Rams shut down corner and he is worth all of it. When I watch both he is far superior than Gilmore. Don't waste the money draft a CB instead.

 

I could not agree more, +1.

 

This is, down to the word, the exact same breakdown of responsibilities that I saw, so I'm 100% confident in your contribution's accuracy.

 

Thanks for chiming in!

 

My pleasure