Wilkerson + Sanu

[GG]

But to me, our D looked old and slow this year. Mario, Lawson, Graham, McKelvin and Leodis -- all are 30+.

 

Wouldn't McKelvin & Leodis be over 60?

[MarlinTheMagician]

Seemed it at times! Second Leodis should have been K. Williams.

Revis is a good point on Leodis and Graham though. NY Press all saying Revis at 30 is not the "shut-down" corner he was and fretting over what the Jets do with his big deal because he can't run with young guys like Sammy. If that applies to Revis, it especially applies to the technique-lacking Leodis and the never-so-fast Graham (who I like and seemed always to get to the right spot - but much later than needed).

[BuffaloHokie13]

I like Leodis as insurance for AW at safety and then a post june 1 cut if AW comes back well.

[MarlinTheMagician]

I kind of share that view, but question whether he is game aware enough for the job.

Rex needs a true safety to help get everyone in position. What was the name of the guy we had, that played for Jets and Baltimore? We got him back at end of his career a couple of years ago and he helped organize the D for Pettine -- also a punt returne, small but tough. Rex needs a guy like that with more physical talent.

[BuffaloHokie13]

I kind of share that view, but question whether he is game aware enough for the job.

Rex needs a true safety to help get everyone in position. What was the name of the guy we had, that played for Jets and Baltimore? We got him back at end of his career a couple of years ago and he helped organize the D for Pettine -- also a punt returne, small but tough. Rex needs a guy like that with more physical talent.

Jim Loenhard

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Hopeful - good points on the June 1 limit. Didn't know you could only do two, so that requires some modification downward. I don't think it is that material.

 

I'd be interested in your going back and taking a look, bearing in mind that we can only do 2 "post June 1" designations and that any cap space obtained post-June-1 can not be used to renegotiate player contracts or sign free agents or drafted rookies - until AFTER June 1, and our FA will NOT want to wait around until then to see what the Bills offer them - bad business move on their parts, can't blame 'em.

 

So yes, I think it's material. I think you are using some bigger savings from post-June 1 cuts to resign our FA and go after others., and that's not realistic.

 

I don't get anywhere close to the numbers you claim, so I'd be interested in seeing you spell them out player by player and salary by salary and noting which would be replaced and how. For example, it's fine to say "cut Carpenter" but then how are you going to replace him? With a rookie? With a guy earning vet minimum in a league with 32 kickers? Why is he available? Is he an improvement?

 

I love your enthusiasm, but to me your assessment seems very long on enthusiasm and short on cold hard realistic cap facts. Yes, we can go through the team with a pair of scissors and cut all the "old guys", but unless we think very realistically about how and where we're going to replace them it's not necessarily in our interest.

 

Keep in mind that the minimum salary for a 4-yr vet is $0.76M, plus any signing bonus.

[MarlinTheMagician]

Will do that when work stops getting in the way. Not saying "cut all the old guys" - I am saying cut the old guys that are not additive, or additive commensurate with their cost. Kyle is not additive commensurate with cost in a 3-4 in my view. Leodis, Graham, Lawson, Urbik -- all on the downside and need to be upgraded. Will go through it.

[BuffaloBillsMagic1]

Plan for 2016:

 

Whaley said perhaps one D splash signing - Please be Mo WIlkerson, perfect fit.

 

Plus one Mid-range - I like Sanu - big, strong possession peceiver with great RAC ability and bonus of throwing ability , but Marvin Jones if you prefer speed to take top off defense. Both are underrated and should trade as mid-range FA's, and will allow us a number 2 for Sammy without breaking bank or compromising draft. Very happy with Sammy, Sanu/Jones, Woods going into next year.

 

Draft: Rounds 1-3 Best available with focus on Tackle, LBs (that can run)and Safety.

 

We are not far off. To execute the foregoing:

 

Cut Mario (swap out for WIlkerson);

 

Restructure Clay -- deal was meant for it;

 

Cut McKelvin, Urbik, Carpenter, Duke Williams, Corey Graham, Harvin,

 

Cut or restructure (only if very favorable) - Kyle.

 

Work to lock up: Cordy, Incognito and Gilmore (nothing left to prove, do it now).

I like, but I would move Kyle out if not very much in our favor, I would try and keep Urbik and restructure Dareus as right now he is overpaid for what Rex does with him. Maybe Trade Dareus and pick up Snacks Harrison from Jets as true NT.

[MarlinTheMagician]

In fairness - I did a lot of that already. Other than Mario (whom should be replaced with another marquee talent at end or outside linebacker), I don't think any of the other guys I mentioned are any meaningful loss and should all be replaced by younger developmental players you can and should get on the cheap.

 

Leodis and Graham - I would not "replace" with anyone beyond what is on roster. I would develop younger corners/safeties from draft, practice squad. We have our starters, and I don't think they offer much beyond what we already have. I think corners are good, would pick a safety, possibly pretty high if BPA.

 

Mario - Mo. You don't like him, there are lots of other FA options. We need another anchor talent on D if we ditch Mario, as Whaley has recognized.

 

Urbik - if Cyril Richardson can't replace him, he has had no business hanging around for two years.

 

​Kyle - not a scheme fit, need at least one D-Line pick. Like Wynn better right now if healthy.

 

Lawson - big area of need in my view. We need a couple of outside backers in the draft that can run and cover. If you don't go DL with the Mario money (I like Mo, did I say?), consider guys like Demario Davis or Irvin.

[Pete]

In fairness - I did a lot of that already. Other than Mario (whom should be replaced with another marquee talent at end or outside linebacker), I don't think any of the other guys I mentioned are any meaningful loss and should all be replaced by younger developmental players you can and should get on the cheap.

 

Leodis and Graham - I would not "replace" with anyone beyond what is on roster. I would develop younger corners/safeties from draft, practice squad. We have our starters, and I don't think they offer much beyond what we already have. I think corners are good, would pick a safety, possibly pretty high if BPA.

 

Mario - Mo. You don't like him, there are lots of other FA options. We need another anchor talent on D if we ditch Mario, as Whaley has recognized.

 

Urbik - if Cyril Richardson can't replace him, he has had no business hanging around for two years.

 

​Kyle - not a scheme fit, need at least one D-Line pick. Like Wynn better right now if healthy.

 

Lawson - big area of need in my view. We need a couple of outside backers in the draft that can run and cover. If you don't go DL with the Mario money (I like Mo, did I say?), consider guys like Demario Davis or Irvin.

Keep Lawson, Kyle, Urbik, Leodis, and Graham. Good riddance Mario

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Will do that when work stops getting in the way. Not saying "cut all the old guys" - I am saying cut the old guys that are not additive, or additive commensurate with their cost. Kyle is not additive commensurate with cost in a 3-4 in my view. Leodis, Graham, Lawson, Urbik -- all on the downside and need to be upgraded. Will go through it.

 

 

 

Ha ha that pesky renumerative employment!

 

I understand what you're trying to do, just saying that we can't cut all of those folks and expect to replace them with rookies. Typically if you can get 2 players in a draft who start and 1-2 who immediately contribute part-time, that's a good draft.

 

I'm also interested to know how you sign Glenn and Incognito and extend Gilmore, then sign a "marquee talent at end or OLB" to replace Mario.

 

Remember Urbik is our backup C as well as G. If they thought Richardson was better at both roles, he'd have been activated at the end of the season. In terms of gameday roster planning, you typically need a guy who can play two OL positions reasonably. Remember when Levitre played center for one game in Miami? Yeah, that.

[NastyNateSoldiers]

This team has its core in place now is the time to add the dressings so to speak, free up money but add me 3 or 4 mid level guys at 4-6 mil per yr. We need starting caliber

 

#1 - Safety- Rashard Johnson ARZ

#2- MLB - Brandon Marshall Den

#3- WR - Jermaine Kearse or Sanu

#4- NT- Damon Harrison Jets

#5- TE- Ladarius Green or Dwayne Allen

 

These are the type of players we need not one guy. Mo Wilk is a very nice player but I'd rather add multiple guys and stay flexible with the cap then to commit long term to a guy that just broke his leg. Look for DW and crew to attack free agency with this type of mindset mof we would be lucky to add those guys I got on my list. I'm thinking DW is even going to dig deeper into free agency for more dust settle types.

Edited January 11, 2016 by NastyNateSoldiers

[Manther]

Plan for 2016:

 

Whaley said perhaps one D splash signing - Please be Mo WIlkerson, perfect fit.

 

Plus one Mid-range - I like Sanu - big, strong possession peceiver with great RAC ability and bonus of throwing ability.

Please don't ever suggest a WR is good because they can throw the ball. And, I know you are not, but, why bring it up...it is just silly.

[Manther]

OR. We can not spend the big bucks and just nail the draft. No more over priced free agents please. Build through the draft like the Steelers, Seahawks and Packers.

I think it will be hard to build thru the draft for Rex's D and have immediate success.

[BobbyC81]

This team has its core in place now is the time to add the dressings so to speak, free up money but add me 3 or 4 mid level guys at 4-6 mil per yr. We need starting caliber

 

#1 - Safety- Rashard Johnson ARZ

#2- MLB - Brandon Marshall Den

#3- WR - Jermaine Kearse or Sanu

#4- NT- Damon Harrison Jets

#5- TE- Ladarius Green or Dwayne Allen

 

These are the type of players we need not one guy. Mo Wilk is a very nice player but I'd rather add multiple guys and stay flexible with the cap then to commit long term to a guy that just broke his leg. Look for DW and crew to attack free agency with this type of mindset mof we would be lucky to add those guys I got on my list. I'm thinking DW is even going to dig deeper into free agency for more dust settle types.

 

Why would they sign a free agent TE when they just shelled out all that money for Charles Clay?

[Pete]

 

Why would they sign a free agent TE when they just shelled out all that money for Charles Clay?

because we could use a second tight end and red zone threat

This team has its core in place now is the time to add the dressings so to speak, free up money but add me 3 or 4 mid level guys at 4-6 mil per yr. We need starting caliber

 

#1 - Safety- Rashard Johnson ARZ

#2- MLB - Brandon Marshall Den

#3- WR - Jermaine Kearse or Sanu

#4- NT- Damon Harrison Jets

#5- TE- Ladarius Green or Dwayne Allen

 

These are the type of players we need not one guy. Mo Wilk is a very nice player but I'd rather add multiple guys and stay flexible with the cap then to commit long term to a guy that just broke his leg. Look for DW and crew to attack free agency with this type of mindset mof we would be lucky to add those guys I got on my list. I'm thinking DW is even going to dig deeper into free agency for more dust settle types.

I would prioritize Cordy, then Richie, and after that, I would prioritize Damon Harrison

Edited January 11, 2016 by Pete

[BarleyNY]

Thanks for the link. Very interesting. Have you looked at whether it has a big impact on us? Do we agree on the numbers more or less? Seems we can still make some strategic use of the designation. Remembering from yesterday, I don't think it has a huge impact on the money I was suggesting we could have, but it certainly has some. What do you think??

 

Kyle, Leodis, Graham, Lawson, Urbik, Carpenter -- I would be looking very hard at all of those guys. Seems Kyle should be a candidate for some restructure/cut given age/injuries. I love him, but think he is not a plus in a 3-4.

It is more of a tool for teams already in big cap trouble to free up space to sign draft picks and some bargain basement free agents. It won't help with Mario at all, for example, as it would be a minimal deferral of $1.6M. Also any moderate or large contracts the Bills ink this season will be easy to structure so that they have a lower cap hit in 2016 than in subsequent years so there's not much point in using the post June 1st deferral. It really wouldn't help because 2017 would be cap hell if they were so tight in 2016 that they needed to defer money that way.

 

Some vets are going to go or take a pay cut. But the Bills need to be judicious about that. Spending sprees in free agency rarely yield good results. Yes, cut some fat. Don't gut a unit though. Kyle in particular is someone I leave alone this year. I don't like losing two of the four starting DLmen at once and next season there'll be a lot more flexibility with him. He'll be tough to replace for the $5M saved and as much as I'd love a guy like Wilkerson I just don't see that happening for a variety of reasons.

 

Oh, and I was wrong about the Sanu contract. As you said, $3.5M per year is certainly fair and reasonable for him. Don't know where my head was. I do see him as more productive in the slot though and maybe backing up the outside though. The Bills sure could use that skill set and he'd be a good fit.

[NastyNateSoldiers]

because we could use a second tight end and red zone threat

I would prioritize Cordy, then Richie, and after that, I would prioritize Damon Harrison

Definitely need to bring back our oline, if not we need to spend some money on filling those holes. I believe that Incog will be back but Cordy will probably walk. If he does then we should try to sign Kelvin Beachum coming off of injury can probably sign at a discount rate.

[Hazed and Amuzed]

 

and your point is what exactly relative to what is being discussed in this thread?

Nothing man, just playing around

[Hapless Bills Fan]

This team has its core in place now is the time to add the dressings so to speak, free up money but add me 3 or 4 mid level guys at 4-6 mil per yr. We need starting caliber

 

#1 - Safety- Rashard Johnson ARZ

#2- MLB - Brandon Marshall Den

#3- WR - Jermaine Kearse or Sanu

#4- NT- Damon Harrison Jets

#5- TE- Ladarius Green or Dwayne Allen

 

These are the type of players we need not one guy. Mo Wilk is a very nice player but I'd rather add multiple guys and stay flexible with the cap then to commit long term to a guy that just broke his leg. Look for DW and crew to attack free agency with this type of mindset mof we would be lucky to add those guys I got on my list. I'm thinking DW is even going to dig deeper into free agency for more dust settle types.

 

That's great Nasty Nate, but until it's clear where this $30 or $40M of cap space is coming from, just how are we going to pay 4 guys each $4-6M AND resign Glenn and Incognito/extend Gilmore/leave cap room for a QB in 2017?

 

Overthecap has a nifty Salary Cap Calculator. You be the GM and cut, tender, resign, and extend players. You can look at the top-10 LTs and LGs and get a feeling for where Glenn and Incognito probably think they fall. 'Cog might possibly agree to a cap-friendly contract with a big fat signing bonus and a low 1st year salary if the Bills want to do it that way. Look at the FA and think who you want to keep. Cut who you want to cut, pre or post June 1, but remember the post June 1 cuts can't be used to sign FA.

 

It's useful to look at the cap savings when cutting a player and think "OK, with the signing bonus and all, can I get a better player for those cap savings or not?"

 

Have fun don't get hurt.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Hopeful

[NastyNateSoldiers]

 

That's great Nasty Nate, but until it's clear where this $30 or $40M of cap space is coming from, just how are we going to pay 4 guys each $4-6M AND resign Glenn and Incognito/extend Gilmore/leave cap room for a QB in 2017?

 

Overthecap has a nifty Salary Cap Calculator. You be the GM and cut, tender, resign, and extend players. You can look at the top-10 LTs and LGs and get a feeling for where Glenn and Incognito probably think they fall. 'Cog might possibly agree to a cap-friendly contract with a big fat signing bonus and a low 1st year salary if the Bills want to do it that way. Look at the FA and think who you want to keep. Cut who you want to cut, pre or post June 1, but remember the post June 1 cuts can't be used to sign FA.

 

It's useful to look at the cap savings when cutting a player and think "OK, with the signing bonus and all, can I get a better player for those cap savings or not?"

 

Have fun don't get hurt.

Possible Restructure Candidates - Clay, Kyle, Wood ,McKelvin, Felton, Lawson. Carp, Urbik, A Will, Graham & Possibly McCoy.

CUTS if not restructured - McKelvin, Graham, Felton, Carp, Urbik, Lawson & A Will

CUTS - Mario , Harvin , Dixon

Resign open cap space - Gilmore, Cordy & Cog and hopefully Bradham

 

I believe if the Bills want to take the next step some of these Vets on our team have to give back some money or restructure especially Kyle, Wood & McKelvin these guys are our longest tenured Bills and are leaders on this team its time to lead by example and other players in that locker room will follow suit. I see it every yr players on other teams restructuring or flat out taking pay cuts for the betterment of the team.

[MarlinTheMagician]

Couple of comments on some of the preceding posts:

 

I like the fellow's proposed cuts/restructures above but -- would absolutely cut Glass Goodwin and the Duke of Dumb. That is a meaningful amount of change too, as they have been around for a bit. In my view they add nothing (Goodwin literally, and the Duke makes some plays, but then cancels them out with dumb ones). Since they are zero loss (that is, they have no net value) there is no reason to pay more than minimum to replace them.

 

Because our core is in place (agree with that part of a prior post), and we have decent to very good starters at most positions even with the cuts I propose, it is the time to add young players with physical skills or high achievement in college and develop them. Such players are picks (often rounds 4-7) or folks off practice squads, and they are cheap because they are not ready for prime time.

 

The starters we have allow us the luxury of developing players,. A new concept for the Bills. For me, this is the only way to truly "build through the draft" (a concept so loved I have never heard it degraded since George Allen. It is like being for Mom and apple pie), This is so because (as the prior poster said) a team usually only gets one or two starters per draft.

 

Our core being in place also helps make my point about Mo. Adding a few "mid-level guys" rather than a marquee guy with the cap space is a bad play in my opinion, We had to do that in the Jauron/Chan-eras because Ralph was cheap and we had a talent-starved roster. Think Langston Walker - high failure rate. Baseball style moneyball does not work in football in my view. Impact players win games, and I think mid-levels can be the road to ruin -- they are cheaper and available for a reason. Bringing in to many also sends the wrong message to the youngsters you are developing.

 

I believe Mo Wilkerson has an effective failure rate of near zero barring injury. The only vets I would cut other than Mario either don't start or don't add meaningful value over the alternative (back-up). Vets that are cut for such reasons should not be replaced with like-salaried guys - everyone knows you must build through the draft! So you replace them with the young (cheap) folks you are developing.

 

In Sanu's case, I feel we may well know the reason why he is available -- Bengals have much tied in position, and not enough balls to go around (plus I love his arm - he is so freaking multiple).

I like the way Bradham hits, but I feel he needs a "show me" deal and probably knows it -- a year or two, if he performs he can get paid. Great last year, regressed this year in my view. Not time for a long-term lock down. If it requires that, I pass.

 

Damon Harrison is not considered a mid-level guy. He is an elite run stuffer.

 

Go Bills!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Possible Restructure Candidates - Clay, Kyle, Wood ,McKelvin, Felton, Lawson. Carp, Urbik, A Will, Graham & Possibly McCoy.

CUTS if not restructured - McKelvin, Graham, Felton, Carp, Urbik, Lawson & A Will

CUTS - Mario , Harvin , Dixon

Resign open cap space - Gilmore, Cordy & Cog and hopefully Bradham

 

I believe if the Bills want to take the next step some of these Vets on our team have to give back some money or restructure especially Kyle, Wood & McKelvin these guys are our longest tenured Bills and are leaders on this team its time to lead by example and other players in that locker room will follow suit. I see it every yr players on other teams restructuring or flat out taking pay cuts for the betterment of the team.

 

Just curious, what players on other teams do you know of that have given back money for the betterment of the team? We're fans, they're players. It's their business. The teams will cut them in a heartbeat if their production falters or their cap space is needed for a signing the team puts a higher value on.

 

When a team restructures, it either extends a player, or turns some future salary into bonus now. That's player-friendly, and helps the team clear current years cap space. The cost is lack of flexibility and future "dead money" if the team needs to move on. That's essentially what's screwing the Saints - they restructured and pushed money forward and now they're carrying $14M of "dead money" on the books. Restructuring Clay and a bunch of guys now might not be in the best long-term interests of the Bills.

 

Harvin is a pending free agent. The Bills didn't pick up the 2nd year of his contract, and I would guess not likely to leaving us with a $2M cap hit for his prorated bonus.

 

Mario and Dixon are gone, I'm sure. That's $14M to sign Incognito and Glenn. Not sure it's enough.

Because our core is in place (agree with that part of a prior post), and we have decent to very good starters at most positions even with the cuts I propose, it is the time to add young players with physical skills or high achievement in college and develop them. Such players are picks (often rounds 4-7) or folks off practice squads, and they are cheap because they are not ready for prime time.

 

The starters we have allow us the luxury of developing players,.

 

Except that, if we cut Mario and Kyle Williams and (as the previous poster suggested) Lawson, McKelvin, Corey Graham, and A. Williams, just what is our core?

[MarlinTheMagician]

Covered in prior posts. Our offensive core for now is Sammy, Tyrod, Shady (for a while, then maybe Special K), Clay, and Glenn, plus Wood and Incognito while they are here.

 

Defensive core: Mo Wilkerson (or pick another Mario replacement), Dareus, Hughes, Gilmore and Darby. Defense is talent-light after that, which is why we were romped all year. Keeping the old guys does not help that.

Never suggested Aaron Williams be cut - count him as core if he can go.

 

Core is definitely not: Lawson, McKelvin and Graham. Kyle is not core in this system, and he is old, hurt and expensive. Mario - we know the deal there. You have made my point - we need another core player on D if Mario goes! Whaley said as much.

[3rdand12]

Mo Wilk would be good, but I'm not sure we should overpay to get him especially with that injury in the final game. It looked bad from what I saw. Sanu I like, ditto with Jones. I really would want Von Miller but that ain't happening. He's a guy we should overpay to get. Do you really want to cut Corey? I'd rather draft a safety or sign one in FA and have him as depth. Then cut Leodis or trade him.

why lose Leodis?