Kelly the Dog Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Aside from making the defining plays in 3 of the team's 7 wins this season? He also beat his man off the line and was wide open on the last play of the game when Orton missed him by a couple yards which would have been 4 defining plays in 8 wins and maybe a playoff berth. He's a great player and will be for a decade barring serious injury. It was and is and will remain a great trade IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 My impression is he's pretty darn good...Especially for a rookie...And if he was catching the ball from a legit top 10 QB he would be outstanding...He's not perfect...But I think a lot of his negative on-the-field issues are QB related...I think off the field he's as good as it gets... All that being said I was not in favor of the trade then, and I have not changed my mind...I liked Evans more than Watkins...If only slightly...And even though I was not high on Beckham it's hard to argue that Beckham and the 2015 #1 would not be better than Watkins alone... Nonetheless...I still think Watkins can be a legit star WR in this league...And he's ours now...So... Congrats--this is a reasonable way to look at the trade. No need for hyperbole to make a point. Good post (even though I disagree with the over-arching sentiment). He also beat his man off the line and was wide open on the last play of the game when Orton missed him by a couple yards which would have been 4 defining plays in 8 wins and maybe a playoff berth. He's a great player and will be for a decade barring serious injury. It was and is and will remain a great trade IMO. I'm assuming you mean against KC...and yes, that's the case. I also think he had the potential for a few HUGE plays against Houston with a QB that looked down the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddog69 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I think he's off to a good start. Has room to grow and mature. Can get better at dealing with adversity without pouting. The offense can also get better at finding ways to get him the ball. Overall, very solid rookie season and plenty of reason to think he is going to be a very good player for the Bills for a very long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnwalter Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 hard to evaluate with our qb situation and nagging injuries, but he seems like he's going to be a true number 1 - meaning that by his second or third year, on critical third downs, we'll be able to go to him even when the other team knows we're going to him. unfortunately, it looks like he will not be as good as either evans or odell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 unfortunately, it looks like he will not be as good as either evans or odell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterpan Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I like him but he does give up on some balls. He even admitted to it earlier in the season and I saw him give up on two or three balls v Denver. Everyone says he has amazing hands, yea he has made some good catches, but he has also had a lot of drops for someone with such amazing hands. At this point I haven't seen anything that would cause our scouts to value him significantly higher than Evans or Beckem, so I do question the trade when those two where not off the board. Why not sit and wait for two of them to be drafted an then take the last remaining?? And for all the talk about our 2015 pick. I'm sure there will be a boatload of talent at a number of positions. Likely the best G and TE on the draft will still be available. Or a replacement DE for Hughes if he cannot be resigned. Or another CB. And please stop counting Kiko as our first round pick. We already count him as 2013s first round pick because EJ is a bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 You should stop there. Sammy's already a top 20 WR in the league. Name 19 WRs better. GO We can start with a very imperfect list of receiving yards and work from there: http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/receiving/sort/receivingYards After removing the two TEs above him Watkins would sit at 23rd, about where I think he should be. Now I admit that some of the players above him on the list I might not rate as better than him. But for every one of those I can find one below him that I'd rate as better. Now the ball is in your court. Use that list and tell me who with more receiving yards you would rate below Sammy. Then I'll give you a list of everybody I would move above him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 So one opinion needs to be defended, while the other does not? That's the book definition of duality. You're basing your opinion purely upon draft position, not on any quantifiable factor. You want my defense? Quite simple: the 2014 draft class was far and away the best draft class in the last 5 years, and the 2015 draft class isn't even close in talent level IMO. When I look at guys I'd like to have with the 17th overall pick, I think of Shaq Thompson, Shawn Oakman, and perhaps Landon Collins--VERY unlikely any of them will be on the board. The rest of the 1st round seems very pedestrian to me. Now, if you're interested in continuing the discussion, perhaps answer my question (which was not only asked first, but also more relevant given that I'm not the person complaining about not having a 2015 pick). Aside from making the defining plays in 3 of the team's 7 wins this season? no, the defense of the other position is that it's likely a contributing starter could be found at that draft position. his name or position is not necessary for that argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnwalter Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 you disagree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 We can start with a very imperfect list of receiving yards and work from there: http://espn.go.com/n.../receivingYards After removing the two TEs above him Watkins would sit at 23rd, about where I think he should be. Now I admit that some of the players above him on the list I might not rate as better than him. But for every one of those I can find one below him that I'd rate as better. Now the ball is in your court. Use that list and tell me who with more receiving yards you would rate below Sammy. Then I'll give you a list of everybody I would move above him. You're analysis fails because you're basing it on stats from 13 games -- during which he's been injured and playing with two sub par QBs. If there was a redraft in the NFL just for the WR position you're telling me there'd be 20 WRs taken before Sammy Watkins? Not a chance. Megatron, Jones, Bryant, Nelson, Brown, Thomas, Green -- all go before Sammy. After those seven I'm not sure there are 13 other WRs in the league that would go before him though I'm sure there are a handful who would. you disagree? I absolutely disagree that it's possible to make that determination 13 games into their respective careers. "It looks like he will not be as good as evans or odell" -- that's a silly thing to say at this juncture. No one knows. Hell, everyone thought RG3 was the second coming two seasons ago, now look at him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 You're analysis fails because you're basing it on stats from 13 games -- during which he's been injured and playing with two sub par QBs. If there was a redraft in the NFL just for the WR position you're telling me there'd be 20 WRs taken before Sammy Watkins? Not a chance. Megatron, Jones, Bryant, Nelson, Brown, Thomas, Green -- all go before Sammy. After those seven I'm not sure there are 13 other WRs in the league that would go before him though I'm sure there are a handful who would. Wow. You think Sammy Watkins is the 7th best WR in the league. Just WOW. You should get out more. Maybe watch some other teams (even if they aren't playing the Bills). Or at least take the Dark Navy glasses off to watch. For instance, while Kyle Orton isn't better than average at QB (and is probably a tad below) he's still better than a lot of other QBs out there. Lots of WRs play with injuries (some more than others), crappy QBs, one dimensional offenses, etc. Don't make excuses just for your boy, Sammy. Watkins is not even the best WR in his class - Evans looks to be that. Exactly how has he distanced himself from others in that class like Beckham Jr. or Benjamin? He hasn't. Do tell me why he's so great - besides wearing the right uniform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 no, the defense of the other position is that it's likely a contributing starter could be found at that draft position. his name or position is not necessary for that argument. How about any type of justification for why it's "likely" based on who will be available? It sounds like you're basically guessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I give him a 7 Now before anyone jumps on me, some of this isn't his own fault - Obscenely high expectations, after all he needs to produce the same as two first rounders and a 3rd (is that right? 3rd? forget...) - Nagging injuries. Hopefully this is just a fluke... but ribs, groin, hamstring, whatever, it's hindering his abilities this year. - Has made a couple bone headed drops/half efforts But, overall, he appears to be a good WR, with good hands. Has he been worth the cost so far? Nope. Will he in the future? We'll find out. He could certainly use a better QB throwing him the ball, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Wow. You think Sammy Watkins is the 7th best WR in the league. Just WOW. You should get out more. Maybe watch some other teams (even if they aren't playing the Bills). Or at least take the Dark Navy glasses off to watch. For instance, while Kyle Orton isn't better than average at QB (and is probably a tad below) he's still better than a lot of other QBs out there. Lots of WRs play with injuries (some more than others), crappy QBs, one dimensional offenses, etc. Don't make excuses just for your boy, Sammy. Watkins is not even the best WR in his class - Evans looks to be that. Exactly how has he distanced himself from others in that class like Beckham Jr. or Benjamin? He hasn't. Do tell me why he's so great - besides wearing the right uniform. Reading is fundamental. I did say there were probably a few who would go ahead of him of the 7 I already said and never said he's a top 10 guy now. I promise you I watch plenty of football and have seen every Tampa game this year. Evans is not better than Watkins. He's the #2 WR on his team, plays for in the semi-pro NFC South and routinely sees one on one coverage that Sammy does not. Benjamin, also plays in the terrible NFC South has less field awareness than any of the other top WRs in the class and the worst hands. He runs awful routes and is completely raw. Beckham has half a season, playing with a HOF QB and has been great. Let's see what happens when defenses start rolling coverages the way they do with Sammy. That said, you're the one who said Sammy MIGHT be a top 20 WR some day and you've yet to show me your list. There's no way he'd go 20th in a redraft at the position. So if you want to come at me, go for it, but bring something to the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 How about any type of justification for why it's "likely" based on who will be available? It sounds like you're basically guessing. it's likely based on nfl history. it's statistically likely. isn't that what "analytics" are all about? isn't that what the bills profess to subscribe to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Beeeews Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Has had some injury issues. When targeted (and a good ball is thrown..EHhem) makes plays every single time. Hackett often tries to get too cute by using him as a "decoy" against formitable CBs. Uh, you sacrificed a 1st round pick in 2015 for a DECOY? NOT smart..but I guess that's why we're on the outside looking in (again..) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not at the table Karlos Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 My only complaint is he sometimes loses focus or half asses a catch. Other than that my complaints are with how we use him. Those plays where hogan is in motion behind the line before the snap and then thrown the ball in the flat would be perfect for sammy. But canthackit doesn't see it that way for whatever reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnwalter Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I absolutely disagree that it's possible to make that determination 13 games into their respective careers. "It looks like he will not be as good as evans or odell" -- that's a silly thing to say at this juncture. No one knows. Hell, everyone thought RG3 was the second coming two seasons ago, now look at him. i agree that we don't know how they're careers will go based on thirteen games. that's why i started with the phrase "it looks like" - based on what we have observed, it looks like... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not at the table Karlos Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Reading is fundamental. I did say there were probably a few who would go ahead of him of the 7 I already said and never said he's a top 10 guy now. I promise you I watch plenty of football and have seen every Tampa game this year. Evans is not better than Watkins. He's the #2 WR on his team, plays for in the semi-pro NFC South and routinely sees one on one coverage that Sammy does not. Benjamin, also plays in the terrible NFC South has less field awareness than any of the other top WRs in the class and the worst hands. He runs awful routes and is completely raw. Beckham has half a season, playing with a HOF QB and has been great. Let's see what happens when defenses start rolling coverages the way they do with Sammy. That said, you're the one who said Sammy MIGHT be a top 20 WR some day and you've yet to show me your list. There's no way he'd go 20th in a redraft at the position. So if you want to come at me, go for it, but bring something to the table. you made sense with everything until you called eli a hof qb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 you made sense with everything until you called eli a hof qb Like him or not he's got two rings and will be in the hall when his career is done. Is he a first ballot? Probably not but he's getting a gold jacket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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