NE Gets A Little Help From The Zebras

[TheBillsWillRiseAgain]

They must not care about the Texans long snapper then. They allowed the Colts to line up over center on a FG attempt and then called a penalty on them afterward just last week.

[26CornerBlitz]

They must not care about the Texans long snapper then. They allowed the Colts to line up over center on a FG attempt and then called a penalty on them afterward just last week.

 

What? The refs got something wrong? I'm flabbergasted!

[CountDorkula]

What? The refs got something wrong? I'm flabbergasted!

 

I bet New England won that game too.

[All_Pro_Bills]

I see that side of the point. Though, waiting until after the play, my have health consequences for the LS that the league is not willing to risk.

 

http://work.chron.com/long-average-career-nfl-player-12643.html

 

"According to a study by the American College of Sports Medicine, long snappers, kickers and punters have the longest NFL careers. These players are on special teams, taking the field only occasionally. Their roles rarely involve direct hits from other players."

[26CornerBlitz]

I bet New England won that game too.

 

But of course.

[TheBillsWillRiseAgain]

I bet New England won that game too.

 

I guess you guys are right. It's obviously a total coincidence that the Patriots always get the right calls at the right times to alter close games in their favor. It makes total sense that they've been among the top 3 beneficiaries in the entire leagie of the two most important and game-altering penalties every season for the past 3 seasons in a row.

 

Nevermind the ridiculous non-calls and phantom calls we've observed ourselves over the years in Bills and Pats games. It must be a total coincidence that the Patriots never have a critical questionable call go against them, yet the Bills seem to get at least a couple every single time the two play. It must be Bills fan bias even though national broadcast announcers call the penalties terrible calls on the Bills. Never on the Pats though.

 

Nevermind that ESPN.com listed more than a half dozen questionable calls after the Bills game, and sure enough, every single one was a penalty on the Bills:

 

 

Here is our breakdown of each of the calls:

 

The most questionable calls:

• Unsportsmanlike conduct against Jerry Hughes (first quarter): This call drew the most attention during the game. After the Bills made a stop on third-and-1, Hughes celebrated by swatting the helmet of teammate Ty Powell, who was coming up off the ground. The problem was that Stevan Ridley was also rising to his feet in between those two players. Although the celebration wasn't directed at Ridley, the officials may have interpreted it as impeding Ridley's ability to get up. That's one of the few plausible explanations.
  
• Offensive pass interference against Robert Woods (third quarter): This came on a second-and-10 completion. Kyle Orton was upset and for good reason: Robert Woods planted his left arm against Alfonzo Dennard as he made the break in his route but the contact was incidental. It didn't seem like Dennard's ability to cover Woods was affected at all. However, it's important to note that this was only one of two Bills flags on the play. They were also flagged for illegal formation, which was declined.
  

The iffy calls:

• Defensive pass interference against Duke Williams (third quarter): This was a tough play for Williams to defend and it's hard to tell from the camera angle if he grabbed Rob Gronkowski's arm or jersey as he was streaking up the seam. If it happened, it wasn't at the end of the play when the ball came in.
  
• Offensive pass interference against Sammy Watkins (third quarter): Replaying this play in full speed for the first time, it appeared that Watkins made a move downfield to set a pick against Dennard. But on the replay, it merely looks like Watkins was cutting downfield on his route inside of Darrelle Revis and Dennard ran into them. It's one of those calls that officials need to decipher in real time, and it can be tough.
  
• Roughing the passer against Hughes (fourth quarter): Hughes stunted up the middle and was definitely pushed towards the ground by left guard Jordan Devey, but there appeared to be an extra surge from Hughes as he took a dive at Brady's lower left leg.
  
• Defensive offsides against Jarius Wynn (fourth quarter): Tough to see this one from the camera angle. The official had a better view.
  
• Illegal formation against Bills' offense (fourth quarter): This came on the play where Woods was penalized for offensive pass interference. Walt Coleman did not specify what led to the call but it appears that either (a) Woods or Watkins were aligned too close to the line of scrimmage, covering the tight ends to either side, or (b) the offensive tackles were too far off the line of scrimmage.
  

 

I mean how consistently do these coincidences have to occur before they're no longer coincidences? Can anyone here think of TWO games in the past 15 years the Patriots lost and were the victim of questionable calls at critical times during that game? Can anyone here think of a SINGLE penalty call against the Patriots over the past few years that came at a really critical time where the announcers said "Wow that was a bad call?" I'm sure you can think of several against the Bills.

 

 

I'm not saying referees don't make mistakes. I'm saying they don't make them against the Patriots.

[boyst]

They do this all of the time.

 

It is no different from when a WR lines up a checks the LOS, The Ref is preventing an illegal action.

the WR checks with the ref. The ref doesn't check with the WR

why is this a player safety issue?

Really?

[TheBillsWillRiseAgain]

Reasons? Plenty. Robert Kraft is one of the most important/prolific owners in the NFL. The referees are officiating in live games that they know include a guy who will likely go down as the best Quarterback of the history of the sport. The Patriots have been a contender for over a decade and a half, everyone expects them to win. Everyone likes to see that Brady magic where they pull it out in the end for a W like they've done 946620943.2 times before.

[truth on hold]

Reasons? Plenty. Robert Kraft is one of the most important/prolific owners in the NFL. The referees are officiating in live games that they know include a guy who will likely go down as the best Quarterback of the history of the sport. The Patriots have been a contender for over a decade and a half, everyone expects them to win. Everyone likes to see that Brady magic where they pull it out in the end for a W like they've done 946620943.2 times before.

Posted this in a differen thread, I think the motivation behind this is $$$$$$$$'s. The difference in tv ratings and ad revenue between a brady-manning matchup vs an Orton -hoyer is huge. And with the officials ultimately getting paid from the same pot, they have every incentive to influence outcomes. The timing of the bad calls and players targeted is very revealing

Edited October 17, 2014 by Joe_the_6_pack

[NoSaint]

 

 

So it's ok for them to interfere to stop a player from committing a penalty? That's like saying "The ref grabbed him and pulled him back before he went offsides so that's ok."

 

or they pulled him back to avoid a fight, which you wouldnt bat an eye over.

 

it happens, this wasnt some conspiracy.

Edited October 17, 2014 by NoSaint

[TheBillsWillRiseAgain]

Posted this in a differen thread, I think the motivation behind this is $$$$$$$$'s. The difference in tv ratings and ad revenue between a brady-manning matchup vs an Orton -hoyer is huge. And with the officials ultimately getting paid from the same pot, they have every incentive to influence outcomes. The timing of the bad calls and players targeted is very revealing

 

Whatever the reason, it's just too hard for me to ignore anymore. I'm not trying to claim some big conspiracy, it's just obvious the refs are savings the Patriots' butts in plenty of close games. There's no way anyone can sit here and tell me a team like the Bills gets bailed out by questionable calls against opponents NEARLY as often as the Patriots seem to. And there's no way anyone can sit here and tell me that the Patriots get as many questionable unfavorable calls as a team like the Bills do.

 

Maybe it's because they're officiating over a player and coach they know will go down in history as the best pair the sport has ever seen. I'm sure refs and judges were unconsciously bias when scoring Muhammad Ali's boxing matches later on in his career. That doesn't make it fair.

 

The Patriots have been one of the best teams in the league for 15 years. They've had their time and should be left to sink or swim based on the players and play they have now, not what they've done in the past.

Edited October 17, 2014 by TheBillsWillRiseAgain

[CountDorkula]

 

Whatever the reason, it's just too hard for me to ignore anymore. I'm not trying to claim some big conspiracy, it's just obvious the refs are savings the Patriots' butts in plenty of close games. There's no way anyone can sit here and tell me a team like the Bills gets bailed out by questionable calls against opponents NEARLY as often as the Patriots seem to do. And there's no way anyone can sit here and tell me that the Patriots get as many questionable unfavorable calls as a team like the Bills do.

 

I am, and I did. Reason: Facts. But apparently "Facts shmacks"

[26CornerBlitz]

Posted this in a differen thread, I think the motivation behind this is $$$$$$$$'s. The difference in tv ratings and ad revenue between a brady-manning matchup vs an Orton -hoyer is huge. And with the officials ultimately getting paid from the same pot, they have every incentive to influence outcomes. The timing of the bad calls and players targeted is very revealing

Whatever the reason, it's just too hard for me to ignore anymore. I'm not trying to claim some big conspiracy, it's just obvious the refs are savings the Patriots' butts in plenty of close games. There's no way anyone can sit here and tell me a team like the Bills gets bailed out by questionable calls against opponents NEARLY as often as the Patriots seem to do. And there's no way anyone can sit here and tell me that the Patriots get as many questionable unfavorable calls as a team like the Bills do. Maybe it's because they're officiating over a player and coach they know will go down in history as the best pair the sport has ever seen. I'm sure refs and judges were unconsciously bias when scoring Muhammad Ali's boxing matches later on in his career. That doesn't make it fair.

 

Then why bother watching NFL games with any emotional investment?

[TheBillsWillRiseAgain]

Then why bother watching NFL games with any emotional investment?

 

Because I don't have a switch in the back of my head that turns that kind of stuff on and off at will. Do you?

 

I am, and I did. Reason: Facts. But apparently "Facts shmacks"

 

Nobody here took your "facts" seriously because you're intentionally missing the point of what you were arguing against. If you want to pretend like you can't see the difference between 5 yard penalties on 1st and 2nd downs and PI calls resulting in automatic firsts on critical 3rd down plays, what exactly do you want anyone to say to you?

[CountDorkula]

Because I don't have a switch in the back of my head that turns that kind of stuff on and off at will. Do you?

 

 

 

Nobody here took your "facts" seriously because you're intentionally missing the point of what you were arguing against. If you want to pretend like you can't see the difference between 5 yard penalties on 1st and 2nd downs and PI calls resulting in automatic firsts on critical 3rd down plays, what exactly do you want anyone to say to you?

 

Got it. You are ignoring my facts, because they prove your conspiracy theories wrong. You may not like the fact the Pats kick our ass every game. no one does. But to blatantly ignore the facts Because "You cant see the difference" is hilarious

[26CornerBlitz]

Because I don't have a switch in the back of my head that turns that kind of stuff on and off at will. Do you?

 

 

 

Nobody here took your "facts" seriously because you're intentionally missing the point of what you were arguing against. If you want to pretend like you can't see the difference between 5 yard penalties on 1st and 2nd downs and PI calls resulting in automatic firsts on critical 3rd down plays, what exactly do you want anyone to say to you?

 

When the Bills were the power of the AFC in the 90's did they get calls as a league favor? This is just more woe is us, fatalistic, anti-Buffalo conspiracy silliness IMO. Please make it stop!

[TheBillsWillRiseAgain]

When the Bills were the power of the AFC in the 90's did they get calls as a league favor? This is just more woe is us, fatalistic, anti-Buffalo conspiracy silliness IMO. Please make it stop!

 

You're not really comparing the NFL as an entertainment powerhouse 20 years ago to the entertainment powerhouse it is today are you? Or the Bills being really good for 4 years to the Patriots dynasty that's 15 years running? Because that'd be like trying to compare apples to really stupid oranges.

Edited October 17, 2014 by TheBillsWillRiseAgain

[26CornerBlitz]

You're not really comparing the NFL as an entertainment powerhouse 20 years ago to the entertainment powerhouse it is today are you?

 

You're right! The WWE and NFL are the same. They're both just "entertainment" entities with predetermined outcomes. Gotcha!

[Orton's Arm]

I think what often times happen when you have situation of complete and utter domination (as is the case with Bills and Pats) is those who have fallen victim to such domination (ie the fans of dominated team in this case) often look for ways and means to explain, even rationalize, how such domination can occur. Often times illogical aspects and components are entered into as evidence when, in fact, they are not at all accurate or truly representative of reality. But, it makes those involved feel good that their is a reason, other than the obvious, that explains for such futility. This may be an example of such a situation.

 

 

 

How can you not agree that the rule isn't in place to help with the well-being of the LS? There is a requirement for a defender to not be situated any closer to 1 yard away from LS and not lined-up directly over top of him. It's a VERY explicit rule done, obviously, for a VERY specific reason ... to protect the LS.

 

In the play last night, even though Hightower was line-up over the LS, the ref SHOULDN'T have re-directed Hightower for he was beyond the 1 yard limitation. In re-directing Hightower as he did, the ref might have caused a negative play.

 

> I think what often times happen when you have situation of complete and utter domination (as is the case with Bills and Pats) is those who have fallen victim to such domination (ie the fans of dominated team in this case) often look for ways and means to explain, even rationalize, how such domination can occur. Often times illogical aspects and components are entered into as evidence when, in fact, they are not at all accurate or truly representative of reality.

 

You are obviously unfamiliar with my posting history, or you wouldn't be presenting the above as a possible explanation for my post.

 

In the Bills vs. Patriots game, a number of exceptionally ticky-tack penalties were called against the Bills. IIRC, no such penalties were enforced against the Patriots. On the other hand, a number of flagrant Patriots rules violations were ignored. The officiating was clearly slanted in the Patriots' favor in that particular game.

 

Whether the Bills can overcome the Patriots' dominance is a separate issue. About a year ago, I wrote that the Bills would not win a Super Bowl until they had a new owner, general manager, offensive coordinator, and quarterback. In the big scheme of things, achieving upgrades for the list items not yet addressed is far more important than the officiating. On the other hand, there is no reason for us to pretend that the officiating is "okay" or "unbiased" when nothing we've seen in typical Bills-Patriots games would remotely suggest that as a possibility.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Orton's Arm

[TheBillsWillRiseAgain]

You're right! The WWE and NFL are the same. They're both just "entertainment" entities with predetermined outcomes. Gotcha!

 

Nice straw man argument. I obviously didn't say that, but it's a much easier position for you to argue against.

[truth on hold]

 

 

When the Bills were the power of the AFC in the 90's did they get calls as a league favor? This is just more woe is us, fatalistic, anti-Buffalo conspiracy silliness IMO. Please make it stop!

Its not solely big-market small-market. They influence games toward the most profitable outcome. Bills were popupar back then, tons of talented players and an espn darling. People got engahed in the drama of their super bowl saga . And anyway the dollars at stake today are much bigger, and everyone working for the league knows it

Edited October 17, 2014 by Joe_the_6_pack

[26CornerBlitz]

You're not really comparing the NFL as an entertainment powerhouse 20 years ago to the entertainment powerhouse it is today are you? Or the Bills being really good for 4 years to the Patriots dynasty that's 15 years running? Because that'd be like trying to compare apples to really stupid oranges.

 

Patriot Dynasty? They haven't won a damn thing since 2004. The only reason why they have dominated the AFC East is the continued ineptitude of the Bills, Jets and Dolphins.

[Mr. WEO]

Posted this in a differen thread, I think the motivation behind this is $$$$$$$$'s. The difference in tv ratings and ad revenue between a brady-manning matchup vs an Orton -hoyer is huge. And with the officials ultimately getting paid from the same pot, they have every incentive to influence outcomes. The timing of the bad calls and players targeted is very revealing

 

Joe strikes again!!

 

Hey Joe, why would the refs not give the breaks to the far bigger market team last night. That was your entire (factually incorrect argument) this week. How come the New York team gets "screwed"?

 

And how much bigger did the "pot" grow last night and how/when will the refs get a taste of that? Will they have to go on strike again to get a bigger slice that they are creating for the NFL? Also, with the NFL TV money locked in for the most part through 2022, how does increasing "Ad revenue" on last night's game (paid for by advertisers long ago) affect the NFL's "pot"?

 

Take us thorugh it...

[Cynical]

1) I'm not trying to claim some big conspiracy, ...

2) ... it's just obvious the refs are savings the Patriots' butts in plenty of close games.

 

Pick one.

[TheBillsWillRiseAgain]

I don't understand why people can't separate these two things:

 

A) The Patriots have consistently gotten an unfair share of favorable calls that have helped them win close games for years.

 

B) The reason the Patriots have dominated the Bills is because they've been consistently gifted with ref bias.

 

Someone can say A without saying B. I'm not sure why that's hard to understand.

[26CornerBlitz]

Its not solely big-market small-market. They influence games toward the most profitable outcome. Bills were popupar back then, tons of talented players and an espn darling. People got engahed in the drama of their super bowl saga . And anyway the dollars at stake today are much bigger, and everyone working for the league knows it

 

This must be why Green Bay and Seattle have been recent SB winners.

[TheBillsWillRiseAgain]

Patriot Dynasty? They haven't won a damn thing since 2004. The only reason why they have dominated the AFC East is the continued ineptitude of the Bills, Jets and Dolphins.

 

You're delusional if you think NFL history will agree with you. 30 years from now the 2000-2015(16/17?) Patriots will be talked about as one of the greatest football dynasties of all time.

[26CornerBlitz]

You're delusional if you think NFL history will agree with you. 30 years from now the 2000-2015(16/17?) Patriots will be talked about as one of the greatest football dynasties of all time.

 

Not IMO. They haven't won since they were busted for cheating. They dominated a division with almost no competition. BFD!

[truth on hold]

 

 

Joe strikes again!!

 

Hey Joe, why would the refs not give the breaks to the far bigger market team last night. That was your entire (factually incorrect argument) this week. How come the New York team gets "screwed"?

 

And how much bigger did the "pot" grow last night and how/when will the refs get a taste of that? Will they have to go on strike again to get a bigger slice that they are creating for the NFL? Also, with the NFL TV money locked in for the most part through 2022, how does increasing "Ad revenue" on last night's game (paid for by advertisers long ago) affect the NFL's "pot"?

 

Take us thorugh it...

Nope youve completely misstated what I said , all along I've been consistent about the league incented to encourage the most profitable match-ups, which will often be a marquee QB matchup like Brady vs manning. Those translate to huge incremental ad dollars. Its not just big-market And yeap of course when the refs contracts come up for renogotiation the bigger the pot, the morr in abdolute dollars they'll get.

 

And BTW you have no idea how ad revenue works, its based on a formula of market share. And the league picks up new advertisers every year, hardly locked in as you claim

 

My view has been consistent, and you're been consistent in misreprenting it

Edited October 17, 2014 by Joe_the_6_pack

[Cynical]

You're delusional if you think NFL history will agree with you. 30 years from now the 2000-2015(16/17?) Patriots will be talked about as one of the greatest football dynasties of all time.

 

They will?

You think Spygate will not cast a cloud on that?

Or 18-1?

[TheBillsWillRiseAgain]

Not IMO. They haven't won since they were busted for cheating. They dominated a division with almost no competition. BFD!

 

Doesn't matter. People will forget they stopped winning Superbowls after Spygate just like they'll forget how many games the later Patriots owed to questionable officiating. Brady, Bellichick, and Kraft. That's all they'll remember.

 

Hell most casual football fans have no idea about Spygate RIGHT NOW.

[Orton's Arm]

Pick one.

 

The reason you want him to pick one is so that you can then proceed to dismiss his entire argument as a conspiracy theory. An entirely irrational attempt on his part to explain away the last 15 years of Patriots dominance over the Bills.

 

All of which would make perfect sense if you didn't actually watch the Bills/Patriots game. I don't see how anyone could watch that game and come away thinking the refs displayed anything other than pro-Patriots bias. During the telecast, Barber--a guy with no connections to Buffalo--said, "I'm a defensive back. I hate to call anything pass interference. But that [referring to a Patriot mugging a Bills' WR] was pass interference." A non-call. One of many non-calls which benefited the Patriots.

 

In a perfect world, the NFL would seek to apply the same rules to every team and every player, regardless of situation. But that isn't how NFL officiating works. Nor has it been for quite some time. Michael Irvin got away with pushing off against defenders. Other, lesser-known WRs would have been called for offensive pass interference. The same ref tendencies which worked in Irvin's favor back in the '90s benefited the Patriots in spades when they played the Bills.

 

All I'm asking--all anyone here is asking--is to a) acknowledge that the refs treat players and coaches differently, depending on reputation, and on which owners are members of the rules committee, and b) for the refs to stop doing that! The loftiest Hall of Fame player should be subjected to exactly the same rules as the lowliest practice squad scrub. No favorites, no "special breaks" for players who have "earned it," nothing. Just a nice, predictable, fair set of rules enforced equally against everyone.

[Malazan]

If it's such common practice then why has that penalty been called on other teams this season?

 

I'm sick of people constantly making excuses for the Patriots always getting favorable and questionable calls their way.

 

I'm sick of people making up conspiracies in their head. So let's call it even.

[TheBillsWillRiseAgain]

All I'm asking--all anyone here is asking--is to a) acknowledge that the refs treat players and coaches differently, depending on reputation, and on which owners are members of the rules committee, and b) for the refs to stop doing that! The loftiest Hall of Fame player should be subjected to exactly the same rules as the lowliest practice squad scrub. No favorites, no "special breaks" for players who have "earned it," nothing. Just a nice, predictable, fair set of rules enforced equally against everyone.

 

Exactly. I don't care if Brady & Bellichick are going to go down as the GOAT. Stop with the bull **** non-calls and phantom calls benefiting the Patriots.

Edited October 17, 2014 by TheBillsWillRiseAgain

[CountDorkula]

Exactly. I don't care if Brady & Bellichick are going to go down as the GOAT. Stop with the bull **** non-calls and phantom calls benefiting the Patriots.

 

So again, its just the Patriots this affects. No other NFL team. Or do we not care about them because they do not play in our division.

[TheBillsWillRiseAgain]

So again, its just the Patriots this affects. No other NFL team. Or do we not care about them because they do not play in our division.

 

What in the world makes you think I would or should care about what happens in other divisions when I'm most concerned about the Bills being competitive in their own division?

 

Teams like Denver led my Peyton Manning probably get favorable calls too. I'll worry about that when the Bills are facing them in the AFC championship game.

[Pneumonic]

Nope youve completely misstated what I said , all along I've been consistent about the league incented to encourage the most profitable match-ups, which will often be a marquee QB matchup like Brady vs manning. Those translate to huge incremental ad dollars. Its not just big-market And yeap of course when the refs contracts come up for renogotiation the bigger the pot, the morr in abdolute dollars they'll get.

 

And BTW you have no idea how ad revenue works, its based on a formula of market share. And the league picks up new advertisers every year, hardly locked in as you claim

 

My view has been consistent, and you're been consistent in misreprenting it

 

So, you think a big setup is in place and the league has conspired with league officials to help ensure the big name teams/players win? If so, for how long do you suppose this has taken place and are all the team owners involved?

Edited October 17, 2014 by Pneumonic

[CountDorkula]

What in the world makes you think I would or should care about what happens in other divisions when I'm most concerned about the Bills being competitive in their own division?

 

Teams like Denver led my Peyton Manning probably get favorable calls too. I'll worry about that when the Bills are facing them in the AFC championship game.

 

You have literally proved my point without even knowing it, so thank you.

[TheBillsWillRiseAgain]

If it gets you to stop posting in this thread, you're quite welcome.

[Buffaloed in Pa]

When my son and I saw Levy was the head referee last night ,we knew how the calls were going to go. How many games does he do for them ? Jets 1st td called back . I swear he has a Brady jersey on under that uniform. He`ll be there for our game in New England ,bet on it.