SACTOBILLSFAN Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 (edited) I'll bite: (1) avoids giving the ball away -- not just avoiding interceptions, but also avoids the strip sack thing. (2) pretty good with the play action/ball fakes. (3) (related to (2) makes good decisions on the read option -- in the first couple weeks we saw the EJ TD on the read option keeper/bootleg left, and a really nice FJ run up the middle when EJ saw a lane. Not a whole lot there, but that's the good stuff ... is it enough to build on? That's the question. I would say (1) he's too timid and because he has no ability to throw down field (see the pass to Williams when EJ couldn't keep the damn ball in the field of play) he holds the ball too long and then delivers every single pass late. (2) the play action doesn't work because nobody is afraid that EJ will beat you through the air. (3) I counted at least 4 plays where keeping it on the read option was the better decision. How many times this season has he actually kept the ball and ran? I think 2? He's afraid to get hit. I had great seats yesterday when it came to watching plays unfold. Houston was giving zero help over the top and letting the Bills receivers go one on one all day and EJ made one good throw. That's it. Just one. He's not good enough to play in the NFL. Edited September 29, 2014 by SACTOBILLSFAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Why? You think Orton is good enough to win 8 or 9 games in the next 12? A career 35-35 record guy? Assuming Orton can do that, what are our chances of winning a playoff game, likely a road game at Indy or New England, San Diego, Denver, Pittsburgh or Baltimore? This season isn't about Orton, never was never will be. 100% correct. This season, for better or for worse, is about seeing if Manuel can be a capable starter in the NFL. They NEED to find that out to determine a path forward, i.e. do they need to make QB their primary focus this off season or not. Right now, and particularly after that pathetic performance by Manuel yesterday, it is easy to let your heart make the decision to start Orton. But that resolves nothing other than appeasing some homer fans bloodlust. They HAVE to find out. And after only 4 games this season they do not know yet. So untie your panties and unclench your ass cheeks everyone, grow a pair and ride it out. And make no mistake, it is going to be a bumpy and probably ugly ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderweb Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 100% correct. This season, for better or for worse, is about seeing if Manuel can be a capable starter in the NFL. They NEED to find that out to determine a path forward, i.e. do they need to make QB their primary focus this off season or not. Right now, and particularly after that pathetic performance by Manuel yesterday, it is easy to let your heart make the decision to start Orton. But that resolves nothing other than appeasing some homer fans bloodlust. They HAVE to find out. And after only 4 games this season they do not know yet. So untie your panties and unclench your ass cheeks everyone, grow a pair and ride it out. And make no mistake, it is going to be a bumpy and probably ugly ride. 15 consecutive years of this has worn everyone's patience beyond thin. Every throw Manuel makes looks like a lob, a floater. He was criticized by Kelly for not stepping into his throws and firing the ball. He makes flat throws when he needs to drop it in. He has been late on way too many throws and when he does pull the trigger, it's anyone's guess where it will go. Our WR's have been hung out so often that they must be beyond sick of Manuel. It is tremendously difficult watching him play. I have hoped that the light would go on for Manuel but he looks as clueless as ever and mostly downright pitiful. I'd say the book on Manuel is closing very fast and it's not looking good. In his defense, he gets almost no help from Hackett who is nothing more than Marone's sad sack pal..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndirish1978 Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Manuel is staying in for the rest of the season barring injury. We're stuck with him and frankly I'd be more pissed if they benched him for Orton. He sucks. He will always suck. But in the infinitesimal chance that he might rise from the quagmire of sucking, it's not going to happen from the bench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Dog Named Kelso Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 (edited) I'll bite: (1) avoids giving the ball away -- not just avoiding interceptions, but also avoids the strip sack thing. (2) pretty good with the play action/ball fakes. (3) (related to (2) makes good decisions on the read option -- in the first couple weeks we saw the EJ TD on the read option keeper/bootleg left, and a really nice FJ run up the middle when EJ saw a lane. Not a whole lot there, but that's the good stuff ... is it enough to build on? That's the question. 1.) This at the expense of actually moving the ball effectively. So I am not sure it is a strength 2.) With our run game every QB back there should be good with play action 3.)This is simply not true. He leaves large amounts of yardage unclaimed because he does not keep the ball which renders the option virtually useless. I am not trashing him I really want to know ... outside of his intangibles. I fear they have coached out all of what made him any good in college so as to avoid mistakes, Edited September 29, 2014 by A Dog Named Kelso Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Manuel is staying in for the rest of the season barring injury. We're stuck with him and frankly I'd be more pissed if they benched him for Orton. He sucks. He will always suck. But in the infinitesimal chance that he might rise from the quagmire of sucking, it's not going to happen from the bench. I'm pretty much in agreement with this take... Outside of 2009-2010 in Denver Orton has been pretty pedestrian...In fact if you remove those two years from his career he's 42 TD's to 38 INT's...56.8% completions in 1226 attempts...Not exactly the kind of QB that is going to lead you to the promised land... Now...If he can revert to the way he played in those two years in Denver then he's unquestionably an upgrade to EJ...But you have to wonder...The Bears and Broncos both gave up on the guy as a starter...I think as a back-up he's probably one of the better 2nd QB's in the league...Other than that I'm not so sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Dog Named Kelso Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 I'm pretty much in agreement with this take... Outside of 2009-2010 in Denver Orton has been pretty pedestrian...In fact if you remove those two years from his career he's 42 TD's to 38 INT's...56.8% completions in 1226 attempts...Not exactly the kind of QB that is going to lead you to the promised land... Now...If he can revert to the way he played in those two years in Denver then he's unquestionably an upgrade to EJ...But you have to wonder...The Bears and Broncos both gave up on the guy as a starter...I think as a back-up he's probably one of the better 2nd QB's in the league...Other than that I'm not so sure... If you are going to start removing stats why not remove the stats from when he was the backup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 100% correct. This season, for better or for worse, is about seeing if Manuel can be a capable starter in the NFL. They NEED to find that out to determine a path forward, i.e. do they need to make QB their primary focus this off season or not. Right now, and particularly after that pathetic performance by Manuel yesterday, it is easy to let your heart make the decision to start Orton. But that resolves nothing other than appeasing some homer fans bloodlust. They HAVE to find out. And after only 4 games this season they do not know yet. So untie your panties and unclench your ass cheeks everyone, grow a pair and ride it out. And make no mistake, it is going to be a bumpy and probably ugly ride. I agree that this season was largely about finding out if EJ is the guy. The returns so far have been pretty disastrous, of course. While there is still hope that EJ will turn things around, I don't think he gets much more time before the start of the Orton Era--one or two games, at the most. The reason is that there are 52 other players on this team and it is simply not fair to them to throw away an entire season on an experiment to see if EJ has what it takes, when so far he has not demonstrated the fundamental stills to succeed in the NFL. As many have pointed out, this is a talented roster that might be able to win 10 games (and possibly the deeply flawed AFC East) with even competent, Orton-level quarterbacking. Players like Mario, Kyle, Fred Jackson and others are playing their hearts out and it is all being pissed away by atrocious QB play. Don't those players (not to mention the WRs who are dying on the vine) deserve a chance to make the playoffs for once in their careers? I think the danger if they stick with EJ much longer is that the team will quit on him and perhaps Marrone, too. I doubt these proud and talented professionals want to become cannon fodder in a pointless war to see if EJ can validate the judgment of the front office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 (edited) I agree that this season was largely about finding out if EJ is the guy. The returns so far have been pretty disastrous, of course. While there is still hope that EJ will turn things around, I don't think he gets much more time before the start of the Orton Era--one or two games, at the most. The reason is that there are 52 other players on this team and it is simply not fair to them to throw away an entire season on an experiment to see if EJ has what it takes, when so far he has not demonstrated the fundamental stills to succeed in the NFL. As many have pointed out, this is a talented roster that might be able to win 10 games (and possibly the deeply flawed AFC East) with even competent, Orton-level quarterbacking. Players like Mario, Kyle, Fred Jackson and others are playing their hearts out and it is all being pissed away by atrocious QB play. Don't those players (not to mention the WRs who are dying on the vine) deserve a chance to make the playoffs for once in their careers? I think the danger if they stick with EJ much longer is that the team will quit on him and perhaps Marrone, too. I doubt these proud and talented professionals want to become cannon fodder in a pointless war to see if EJ can validate the judgment of the front office. No matter what, there will be no "Orton Era". If the Bills put Orton in with Manuel healthy it is no more than admitting Manuel is a bust and trying to save their coaching/GM futures by stealing a couple more wins that they would with Manuel. They would already be looking for their next starting QB, if they aren't already. Edited September 29, 2014 by CodeMonkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 No matter what, there will be no "Orton Era". If the Bills put Orton in with Manuel healthy it is no more than admitting Manuel is a bust and trying to save their coaching/GM futures by stealing a couple more wins that they would with Manuel. They would already be looking for their next starting QB, if they aren't already. I know. Sarcasm doesn't always come through clearly on a message board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JC2002 Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 I'm pretty much in agreement with this take... Outside of 2009-2010 in Denver Orton has been pretty pedestrian...In fact if you remove those two years from his career he's 42 TD's to 38 INT's...56.8% completions in 1226 attempts...Not exactly the kind of QB that is going to lead you to the promised land... Now...If he can revert to the way he played in those two years in Denver then he's unquestionably an upgrade to EJ...But you have to wonder...The Bears and Broncos both gave up on the guy as a starter...I think as a back-up he's probably one of the better 2nd QB's in the league...Other than that I'm not so sure... The Bears were not a passing team they were a run heavy team that relied on defense and special teams . We dont need a someone to carry the team just someone that can take advantage of the opportunities that are being given and Orton can do that . He was never the guy in Denver or Chicago . he beat out 1st rd pick Grossman to start all of 2008 for the Bears and went 9-6 .He then was traded for Cutler he was not the guy in Denver just a placeholder . We are not going all in shotgun passing attack like the broncos were doing back then but Orton has experience and success playing in a run heavy system based around execution and game planning and pass heavy spread offense type system . Orton is no savior but with our running game he will have no problem handing it off and if needed he can do this http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d81b974c1/QB-Orton-to-WR-Lloyd-46-yd-pass http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d822c6c89/QB-Orton-to-WR-Decker-33-yd-pass-TD Now in that second video you will notice him change the play at the line and then exploit the defense We don't need all pro although that would be nice we need someone is competent and has been around enough to recognize whats wrong and to try and fix it . Right now EJ simply doesnt have the experience to give the team what it needs. Hes not done by any means but hes simply not ready yet . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Dog Named Kelso Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 No matter what, there will be no "Orton Era". If the Bills put Orton in with Manuel healthy it is no more than admitting Manuel is a bust and trying to save their coaching/GM futures by stealing a couple more wins that they would with Manuel. They would already be looking for their next starting QB, if they aren't already. Or that they didn't properly coach him. He doesn't need to be a bust he could just not be ready. I do not understand how it always need to be one or the other. They rush his progressing into a starting QB do to necessity they did not need to continue with that this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 100% correct. This season, for better or for worse, is about seeing if Manuel can be a capable starter in the NFL. They NEED to find that out to determine a path forward, i.e. do they need to make QB their primary focus this off season or not. Right now, and particularly after that pathetic performance by Manuel yesterday, it is easy to let your heart make the decision to start Orton. But that resolves nothing other than appeasing some homer fans bloodlust. They HAVE to find out. And after only 4 games this season they do not know yet. So untie your panties and unclench your ass cheeks everyone, grow a pair and ride it out. And make no mistake, it is going to be a bumpy and probably ugly ride. Perhaps Bills management does not know yet but the trend is headed in that direction. I don't think anyone here advocating a change at the QB position has reached that conclusion based on an emotional evaluation. The numbers and the results support that conclusion along with some basic observation. It doesn't take a hall of fame talent evaluator to see EJ is struggling and could possibly benefit from a change. Can you honestly tell me this guy has any level of confidence at this point? To let him dangle in the breeze here just invites ruining him for good. So what should they do? Let the efforts of the entire team flush down the drain in order to evaluate if EJ can quarterback at a competitive level in the NFL, essentially wasting another year? Miss the playoffs again? Surrender a top 5 pick to the Browns for the Watkins trade? Give the new owner no choice but to clean house with the coaching staff and front office? Signal to a fan base that's sick and tired of waiting until next year that the team is content to wait until next year and that winning is a secondary goal and doesn't matter? The goal in the NFL is to win as many games as possible, make the playoffs, and work to win a championship. Any coach or manager that doesn't put that as job #1 shouldn't be working. With the way EJ is playing right now the only way the Bills win any games is if their quarterback plays worse than ours. That's a pathetic strategy. And given his low performance rating season to date its hard to imagine that happening. Maybe EJ can outplay Geno Smith given his recent performance but I have my doubts and if they maintain the current course we're looking at 3-5 at the half way point. Orton isn't the long-term answer but he's good enough to provide a measureable improvement. Enough to turn some of those certain future L's to potential W's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zow2 Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Allowing QB's to throw hot air balloons into coverage and awarding them first downs via penalty at the end of the game is a very bad look. Corey Graham interfered similarly at the end of regulation in the opener and also no flag. The NFL has always tucked the flags late in games. See the SF/Balt Super Bowl. That's why it was such an outrage back in 1998 when the refs gave the Pats that win in Foxboro on a Hail Mary PI call. I can't watch yet another performance like that so I will be DVR'ing that Detroit game. If I can't watch it I don't know how Marrone can. There really isn't time for this staff to give EJ 30 starts. He's a mess right now. Maybe 3-4 years holding a clipboard and working on his mechanics and mental approach and he will be able to step back into an NFL lineup but right now he's dying out there. It's not like he's just throwing too many interceptions or the kind of mistakes you expect from a young QB.....he literally can't throw a football. It's almost so bad that you have to wonder if he's getting the yips. I've always felt that giving him actual physical competion would be good because it would help prevent him from over-thinking the task at hand. That's a great post man. Some people continue to lean on that Carolina game from last year to rationalize how EJ "has the tools", "it's the O-line", "the receivers drop balls" blah blah blah... They fail to remember that during that game in crunch time 4th Qtr, EJ got strip sacked & fumbled plus he threw a pick. TWO turnovers in crunch time. It was only because of Carolina's ineptitude that the Bills even had a chance. Then it took a bunch of dink/dunk passes and a huge PI penalty to complete the comeback. Not a very sustainable method of 2-minute drill comebacks. Funny you mention DVR'ing the Detroit game. After blowing off a family event with my kids yesterday because I HAD to watch the big Houston game....i left feeling disgusted. I said next weekend I'm doing something with my kids on Sunday and will DVR the game. I'm not falling for this again... I'll still watch and be a fan but on my time.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 (edited) If you are going to start removing stats why not remove the stats from when he was the backup? That's cool...Go ahead and assume he's going to return to form after 2 NFL teams gave up on him and the Cowboys did not want to pay him what he felt he was worth to be a back-up for a QB coming off back surgery... What every works for you... And I'm not saying Orton would not be a better option than EJ right now...I'm only saying he's a career 79.9 QB...So don't get your hopes up... And BTW, I said if he reverts back to the 2009-2010 form he's definitely an upgrade from EJ...So I'm uncertain why you even bothered with this post... Edited September 29, 2014 by KOKBILLS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Dog Named Kelso Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 That's cool...Go ahead and assume he's going to return to form after 2 NFL teams gave up on him and the Cowboys did not want to pay him what he felt he was worth to be a back-up for a QB coming off back surgery... What every works for you... And I'm not saying Orton would not be a better option than EJ right now...I'm only saying he's a career 79.9 QB...So don't get your hopes up... And BTW, I said if he reverts back to the 2009-2010 form he's definitely an upgrade from EJ...So I'm uncertain why you even bothered with this post... My point wasn't that he was going to be good or not just that if you are arbitrarily removing stats you can make things look however you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted September 29, 2014 Author Share Posted September 29, 2014 Guess we won't have to watch another putrid performance...Orton to start at QB Sunday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Guess we won't have to watch another putrid performance...Orton to start at QB Sunday Well, at least from Manuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndirish1978 Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Well, I suppose I was wrong about him playing the rest of the season... I feel stupid for it, but rather than give me hope for the future, this move just makes me angrier we gave up our 1 next year. Now where are we getting a QB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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