NoSaint Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 (edited) If Hackett has a set of goal line plays that in his mind are guaranteed TDs, he should not use them until they count. The defenses are pure vanilla and no one wants to put anything of significance on tape. There are no game plans. It is player evaluation. IMO worrying about play calling and personnel packages you see in PS is an exercise in futility. agreed. but i think there is an argument to be made that it was an issue last season too. we were 29th in the league in red zone td rate. we wont know for a few weeks if that has changed though. I do think its a valid topic of discussion. if we can bump our TD rate up to 53% (the earlier quoted number for 16th in the league) that might win 1-2 of those 1 score games, and isnt an unreasonable expectation. if we can get it into the top ten (57%).... I think that alone could bump us 2 victories easily. that would be turning 4-5 drives that ended in FGs (or no points) into TDs Edited August 18, 2014 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlbillsfan1975 Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 (edited) As preseason playcalling isn't a real thing worth hashing out lets talk 2013--- how many times on "and goal" situations do we run the same play that won the Carolina game. That basic inside/outside set of crossing routes to try to spring the guy to the corner? We swapped it left and right, and tweaked the formation some but it felt terribly predictable.... As an example. When I can predict it watching on TV, you know the defense sees it coming and it makes it harder on our players to execute. To date this is my main concern with Hackett and ultimately Marrone. They showed very little imagination with the offense in 2013. We got the excuse of QB play and yadda yadda yadda. IF we watch the same crap this year Hackett needs to go. Edited August 18, 2014 by atlbillsfan1975 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 agreed. but i think there is an argument to be made that it was an issue last season too. we were 29th in the league in red zone td rate. we wont know for a few weeks if that has changed though. I do think its a valid topic of discussion. if we can bump our TD rate up to 53% (the earlier quoted number for 16th in the league) that might win 1-2 of those 1 score games, and isnt an unreasonable expectation. if we can get it into the top ten (57%).... I think that alone could bump us 2 victories easily. that would be turning 4-5 drives that ended in FGs (or points) into TDs I agree. From all accounts they have been working on it in practice quite a bit. All we as fans can hope is that they don't want to show their hand, and have it be on tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 agreed. but i think there is an argument to be made that it was an issue last season too. we were 29th in the league in red zone td rate. we wont know for a few weeks if that has changed though. I do think its a valid topic of discussion. if we can bump our TD rate up to 53% (the earlier quoted number for 16th in the league) that might win 1-2 of those 1 score games, and isnt an unreasonable expectation. if we can get it into the top ten (57%).... I think that alone could bump us 2 victories easily. that would be turning 4-5 drives that ended in FGs (or no points) into TDs I appreciate it when posters can take somewhat vague statements ("we need to be better in the red zone") and then give concrete numbers to explain the impact. Nice post. It's absolutely a valid topic of discussion in general, but not so much as it pertains to preseason play-calling. We know the team commits significant time to red zone work in practice, so it's a point of emphasis. I share your sentiment that I hope Hackett will work to somewhat disguise the Bills' tendencies in this regard as well. This may be where we see Hostler's value really come to fruition once the real games begin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxy312 Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 The concerns about Hackett are valid. We have plenty of data points (last season) to suggest that his red zone play calling is ineffective. For fans to talk about how the preseason is somehow "wait and see" is naive. Every team in the NFL commits time in practice to the red zone. To suggest that it's just something that the Bills work on is also short sighted. I'll start buying off on the idea that Hackett is disguising something, when he actually shows me something that warrants a disguise. 2 games into the preseason, the Broncos look like a Superbowl team. 3 games into the preseason, Hackett appears to be calling plays for a high school team. Someone let me know when "real" football starts for the Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I'll just go ahead and (again) challenge anyone beefing about playcalling to go back and watch 59 lunge behind the tackling/pressuring defender. EJ had a ball batted on fourth down. Guess who was blocking him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26TrapDraw Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 EJ doesn't help but Hackett in way over his head when he's up against an experienced D coordinator. Should have never been hired into this situation with a young QB. I'd have to agree here. 10 trips in the red zone so far in the preseason with no TD's can't be good. U realize they may be very vanilla as not to tip their hand but nothing gives a young QB trying to find his rhythm and confidence like 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I appreciate it when posters can take somewhat vague statements ("we need to be better in the red zone") and then give concrete numbers to explain the impact. Nice post. It's absolutely a valid topic of discussion in general, but not so much as it pertains to preseason play-calling. We know the team commits significant time to red zone work in practice, so it's a point of emphasis. I share your sentiment that I hope Hackett will work to somewhat disguise the Bills' tendencies in this regard as well. This may be where we see Hostler's value really come to fruition once the real games begin. theres definitely some reasons to be optimistic -- having a healthy qb, adding some talent outside, hopefully a healthier chandler, despite early struggles hopefully some of the new talent on the line can help, and of course adding to the coaching staff..... even if only some of that pans out, it can be an improvement year over year. we dont need to reinvent the wheel, but even the small gaps in conversion are substantial difference makers at this level. I'd have to agree here. 10 trips in the red zone so far in the preseason with no TD's can't be good. U realize they may be very vanilla as not to tip their hand but nothing gives a young QB trying to find his rhythm and confidence like 6. i know its just preseason, but getting a couple TDs was something i was hoping to see. regardless of not gameplanning, or not running secret plays, or playing with personnel in different combos.... you know the coaches and the team want to get 7 atleast a few times. i wouldnt fret over 42% vs 63% in the preseason, but it will be nice if we see a couple conversions before august is done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Paulson Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Watch 59 lunging behind the tackler on every botched run play, then talk to me about playcalling. this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpberr Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 The confusing thing about preseason is that you don't want to roll out your *real* plays and you pray that nobody gets injured but... you would like to see some better execution in the red zone even if the plays have a vanilla flavor to them to give everyone from players to coaches to fans the confidence that they can get it done when it counts. I admit that I'm one of those fans that's been highly annoyed with Hackett's playcalling - especially last year. We were often settling for Dan Carpenter heroics because of the play calling. I'm hoping that with a year of experience under his belt, the calls will be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8-8 Forever? Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 this is one area of the field where the read option could be successful, especially after our first obligatory corner fade is defended .. if the DE crashes the mesh/hand-off - and the outside LB isn't prepared to exchange edge responsibilities with the DE - our QB could stroll in. but in Hackett's defense - that's something you don't show opponents in pre-season. No way you see the real red zone stuff in pre season. Forget it. Preseason games are tryouts for guys running certains routes, lineman being put in situations to see how they do, etc. Garbage time. the score is meaningless. I wish the preseason would just go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Chicken or the egg? How much is it Hackett vs the QBs he's given? Bills have been atrocious in picking up short yardage situations in the preseason, whether it's a designed run or play action pass. The only playcall that looks positive is the read option for EJ where he had lots of room to run, but handed the ball off each time. Maybe they're setting that up for the regular season. Otherwise, the calling and execution are awful. As discussed in other threads, Bills OL is just not that good in pushing the pile, while the QBs' throws are mediocre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryPinC Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 The concerns about Hackett are valid. We have plenty of data points (last season) to suggest that his red zone play calling is ineffective. For fans to talk about how the preseason is somehow "wait and see" is naive. Every team in the NFL commits time in practice to the red zone. To suggest that it's just something that the Bills work on is also short sighted. I'll start buying off on the idea that Hackett is disguising something, when he actually shows me something that warrants a disguise. 2 games into the preseason, the Broncos look like a Superbowl team. 3 games into the preseason, Hackett appears to be calling plays for a high school team. Someone let me know when "real" football starts for the Bills. +1 well said. Does anyone truly believe that there's some arsenal of hidden plays that will dramatically increase our red zone effectiveness once the season starts? Red zone effectiveness is about execution but also about keeping the defense off balance with the playcalling. Fakes, snap counts, motion, etc. Is it so vital we do none of that to keep it off tape? You can fake on tape and then not during the next game. The fact that we are so ineffective at running screens is another symptom of play calling. They need to be called when the defense is crashing and over pursuing around the LOS. Are we saving the real screens for the regular season? Afraid to put it on tape? I don't think so. Just poor playcalling and execution. Teams are sniffing out our screens no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 While I am concerned about Hackett, I'm not concerned about his preseason red zone play calling. I'm decidedly in the camp that says preseason is for practicing plays and evaluating talent. It's not a time for creative play-calling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Chicken or the egg? How much is it Hackett vs the QBs he's given? Bills have been atrocious in picking up short yardage situations in the preseason, whether it's a designed run or play action pass. The only playcall that looks positive is the read option for EJ where he had lots of room to run, but handed the ball off each time. Maybe they're setting that up for the regular season. Otherwise, the calling and execution are awful. As discussed in other threads, Bills OL is just not that good in pushing the pile, while the QBs' throws are mediocre. its tough because weve been echoing some of this even from the regular season. how many posts did we have last year questioning when EJ would run on that play call? maybe it was the knee, maybe it wasnt trusting his reads.... maybe its not the design of the play.... we will see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryPinC Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 No way you see the real red zone stuff in pre season. Forget it. Preseason games are tryouts for guys running certains routes, lineman being put in situations to see how they do, etc. Garbage time. the score is meaningless. I wish the preseason would just go away. Maybe later in the game but not when you're going 1st string O vs 1st string D. They want 7, especially when we sucked at it the previous year. Not like we're the seahawks or niners here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seq004 Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I would have to agree. I think this college coach is over his head. His play calling in the red zone is soooo predictable everyone including fans and players know what's coming. He shows no creativity once in the red zone. I know some of you will say it's just preseason, however I thought Hackett's play calling last year was horrible also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I'm telling you guys...Hostler is going to be the key. His one freaking job is to gameplan against the upcoming opponent and analyze the Bills' tendencies. We simply can't use last season, or this preseason, as an indicator or predictor of how things will be run once the season starts. What we can do is analyze individual matchups and who is winning/losing those battles during these practice games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryPinC Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I guess one other way to think about it is to look at our first team run defense. Weren't very good at it last year but are doing well in preseason when the ones are in. Is that meaningless? If our run defense tanks and is near the bottom of the league again and Schwartz stays as DC to coach next year and run defense looks really strong in 2015 training camp do we hide it or severely limit our scheme so it looks like crap in meaningless preseason games? Give me a break! Final score doesn't matter in these games but our coaches are trying to be effective with the ones, even if they limit playcalling or schemes to a degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halijack Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 While Im on the fence about Hackett's offence, shouldn't it be mentioned that he calls the plays for the 2nd and 3rd string O who have scored td's while in the redzone during this preseason? Im not sure which side of the argument this validates though.... ugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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