I'm Spartacus Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 If TJ Graham is on the bubble for getting cut at Wide Receiver, maybe they can use him as a KO & Punt return specialist. He has the speed.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 If TJ Graham is on the bubble for getting cut at Wide Receiver, maybe they can use him as a KO & Punt return specialist. He has the speed.... I have had this same thought but there has to be a reason why they don't put him back there... maybe they don't trust him. But his specialty of catching the ball with his stomach would actually work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#34fan Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) I have had this same thought but there has to be a reason why they don't put him back there... maybe they don't trust him. But his specialty of catching the ball with his stomach would actually work. Eeeeeeee. Would it? I can see that bad-boy sliding right through his arms, bouncing off his stomach, and squirting out onto the turf. I can also see the opposing team's gunner doing an end-zone celebration afterward. -I used to think maybe TJ could do KR. Now I just think he's better off hurting someone else's chances of winning games. Edited June 11, 2014 by #34fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 How about TJ Graham at returns? He clearly has the speed. Maybe that would be his niche. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasternOHBillsFan Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Please question Marrone about using Watkins on punt & KO returns & make him understand that this is the height of insanity. Eric Moulds was a KR/PR once... my God, it isn't ballet... sometimes you have to play your playmaker. Special teams are very important for a rookie to be involved, ESPECIALLY one with the skills he has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted June 11, 2014 Author Share Posted June 11, 2014 Eric Moulds was a KR/PR once... my God, it isn't ballet... sometimes you have to play your playmaker. Special teams are very important for a rookie to be involved, ESPECIALLY one with the skills he has. Did Eric Moulds cost the team 3 draft picks including 2 first round picks at least one of which was in the top 10? Didn't think so. I don't care if the chances are 1:1,000,000. It isn't worth the risk of putting Watkins on return teams. (& my guess is that we'll never see him return a kick/punt during a game) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) Did Eric Moulds cost the team 3 draft picks including 2 first round picks at least one of which was in the top 10? Didn't think so. I don't care if the chances are 1:1,000,000. It isn't worth the risk of putting Watkins on return teams. (& my guess is that we'll never see him return a kick/punt during a game) does that mean you dont think we should run him over the middle on passing plays either? what about screens where the corners and safeties will be dropping down on him like a punt return potentially or a lb could blindside him? Edited June 11, 2014 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted June 11, 2014 Author Share Posted June 11, 2014 does that mean you dont think we should run him over the middle on passing plays either? what about screens where the corners and safeties will be dropping down on him like a punt return potentially or a lb could blindside him? Nope. He's a receiver, he should receive. Coaches cannot be questioned if he gets hurt as a WR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Nope. He's a receiver, he should receive. Coaches cannot be questioned if he gets hurt as a WR. Why do we care if the coach gets questioned? What if the answer is "he's by far our most dynamic return man and our analysis says he's at no more risk fielding a punt than catching a pass" I still think this is "just in case" but your argument seems to be devolving into "I don't care even if it's possible that it's statistically proper, my emotions can't handle it" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted June 12, 2014 Author Share Posted June 12, 2014 Why do we care if the coach gets questioned? What if the answer is "he's by far our most dynamic return man and our analysis says he's at no more risk fielding a punt than catching a pass" I still think this is "just in case" but your argument seems to be devolving into "I don't care even if it's possible that it's statistically proper, my emotions can't handle it" What do I care about Watkins getting hurt (that's what this is about)? I want to (finally) have some continuity and success within this organization. I've already answered the "analysis" question above. It would be a huge mistake for Watkins to ever return a punt or kick in an NFL game. Not logical? I've already answered that above too. I'm not in the slightest bit emotional about this. My blood pressure is hovering within its normal range, but, I am 100% certain that I'm correct. (believe it or don't) Since I've said the same thing multiple times in this thread & I don't want to be accused of being on a crusade I will now bow out of the conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Can we charge Beerball $20 for starting this thread? (ducks and runs for cover) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cale Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Did Eric Moulds cost the team 3 draft picks including 2 first round picks at least one of which was in the top 10? Didn't think so. I don't care if the chances are 1:1,000,000. It isn't worth the risk of putting Watkins on return teams. (& my guess is that we'll never see him return a kick/punt during a game) The team that EM returned kickoffs for, had studs on special teams. Our present blocking on ST sucks. Easley is a gunner. A couple of others come to mind. But none of them are stellar blockers. Watkins will get killed. Edited June 12, 2014 by cale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 What do I care about Watkins getting hurt (that's what this is about)? I want to (finally) have some continuity and success within this organization. I've already answered the "analysis" question above. It would be a huge mistake for Watkins to ever return a punt or kick in an NFL game. Not logical? I've already answered that above too. I'm not in the slightest bit emotional about this. My blood pressure is hovering within its normal range, but, I am 100% certain that I'm correct. (believe it or don't) Since I've said the same thing multiple times in this thread & I don't want to be accused of being on a crusade I will now bow out of the conversation. You have used the phrase that you don't care what statistics show and it being about what you feel which made me imply that you didn't care even if statistics might show it safe, that emotionally you still wouldn't like it- not that you were in hysterics I don't know if that's true for a returner but if it is, and the team feels its a safe way to get the ball in the hands of an explosive playmaker to create field position and points I'm not sure what argument you would be making at that point beyond he shouldn't do it cause it makes you uncomfortable. I'd be curious to see some data on kick returner injury rates at this point though. I know conventional wisdom is you don't risk a star there but I'm curious if it's real risk or fear of getting called out for going against the grain if it happens to go wrong that keeps that policy widely used (or if there are just a lot of backups that are simply very skilled at the roles). The Seahawks use a lot of starters on special teams, and strike me as a team that aggressively puts itself towards the cutting edge. And you see guys like tavon austin (top ten pick, trade up and more frail build), Darren Sproles (key cog in the saints offense) and Patrick Peterson (perhaps the best corner in the game) returning.... I've often said I'd prefer Goodwin due to risk/reward but might boil down to him being just as good more than anything thinking about it more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 I'm not sure that there is anything logical about it. I feel that using Watkins on kick or punt returns would be (potentially) a big mistake. It would smack of desperation to me and shortsightedness. It's simply what I think. Don't let fear rule your life. Overcome that fear and either let logic dictate your thoughts or stand self aware and content in ignorance. Not saying your fears are wrong, but you sure are arguing a lot for someone who has confessed he is using emotion rather than logic to direct his thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#34fan Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Don't let fear rule your life. Overcome that fear and either let logic dictate your thoughts or stand self aware and content in ignorance. Not saying your fears are wrong, but you sure are arguing a lot for someone who has confessed he is using emotion rather than logic to direct his thoughts. Why do we care if the coach gets questioned? What if the answer is "he's by far our most dynamic return man and our analysis says he's at no more risk fielding a punt than catching a pass" I still think this is "just in case" but your argument seems to be devolving into "I don't care even if it's possible that it's statistically proper, my emotions can't handle it" Once a ball snaps on a regular down, the defense already has its assignments... The linemen attempt to rush the passer or plug the gaps... Depending on the scheme, LB's can do the same OR fall back into coverage. Corners and free safeties guard receivers, Safeties on the strong side can guard the TE, help with the run, etc. -Bottom line: Crushing the wideout is not the sole focus of the D's attention. Now picture a kickoff with ten guys charging full speed toward your ball carrier. The league itself saw the danger in this, which is why they moved the kickoff up to the 35 yard line. (Goodell even explored dropping kickoffs altogether.) Lots can go wrong Is that a spot you'd want your #1 draft pick to be in? Excercising discernment is nowhere near the same as being afraid.... For now Watkins should play strictly WR. -That is, after all, why we got him. Edited June 12, 2014 by #34fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloFan68 Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 I hope Whaley has our next Special Teams coach on speed dial. I don't see Crossman making it past the Bye week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Once a ball snaps on a regular down, the defense already has its assignments... The linemen attempt to rush the passer or plug the gaps... Depending on the scheme, LB's can do the same OR fall back into coverage. Corners and free safeties guard receivers, Safeties on the strong side can guard the TE, help with the run, etc. -Bottom line: Crushing the wideout is not the sole focus of the D's attention. Now picture a kickoff with ten guys charging full speed toward your ball carrier. The league itself saw the danger in this, which is why they moved the kickoff up to the 35 yard line. (Goodell even explored dropping kickoffs altogether.) Lots can go wrong Is that a spot you'd want your #1 draft pick to be in? Excercising discernment is nowhere near the same as being afraid.... For now Watkins should play strictly WR. -That is, after all, why we got him. The point a few of us have made was that it's a higher injury play but how much of that is blockers and guys hitting blockers - part of why the wedge was removed. I still haven't seen the stats on kick/punt returners specifically suffering injuries, and would be curious as to what those rates are. BB said he didnt care what the stats were - he didnt like it. That seemed less about caution at that point and more about simply worrying/fear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbosrrgood Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) The fact that people are suggesting we use TJ Graham ANYWHERE in place of Watkins is absolutely mind boggling to me. TJ Graham is the epitome of failure, and Watkins has a high of a ceiling as you get in the NFL. His skill set is especially suited to returning kicks. Why on earth would you not want your best players playing? Especially when it could be the difference between winning or losing a game? It may not be sexy, but KRs can be some of the most important plays of the game. Plus, KRs rarely seem to get hurt (anyone have stats?), so the whole controversy seems somewhat moot anyway. Terrance McGee got hurt all the time...playing CB, not returning kicks. I don't recall Donte Hall, Devin Hester, Cordarrelle Patterson, Percy Harvin, ..., getting hurt doing it either. Oh yeah, and for the record I believe that there is next to no chance TJ Graham will make this team. It would probably take multiple injuries. The Bills loaded up on tall prospects behind him, and gave a multi year deal to Barden. They want one of those guys to make it. If Goodwin is healthy, he is probably the guy returning kicks...But if not i'd be thrilled to see Watkins out there. Edited June 12, 2014 by Turbosrrgood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Once a ball snaps on a regular down, the defense already has its assignments... The linemen attempt to rush the passer or plug the gaps... Depending on the scheme, LB's can do the same OR fall back into coverage. Corners and free safeties guard receivers, Safeties on the strong side can guard the TE, help with the run, etc. -Bottom line: Crushing the wideout is not the sole focus of the D's attention. Now picture a kickoff with ten guys charging full speed toward your ball carrier. The league itself saw the danger in this, which is why they moved the kickoff up to the 35 yard line. (Goodell even explored dropping kickoffs altogether.) Lots can go wrong Is that a spot you'd want your #1 draft pick to be in? Excercising discernment is nowhere near the same as being afraid.... For now Watkins should play strictly WR. -That is, after all, why we got him. 1. While the sole focus of the D may not be crushing the wideout, if a DB or a LB has the opportunity to lay as legally (and sometimes illegally) vicious a hit as he can on a wideout, he is going to do it almost every time. Every year, we have DBs and LBs fined/suspended for delivering such vicious hits on receivers who are in no position to protect themselves. In addition, the better wide receivers tend to have more passes thrown to them, which means more opportunities to sustain such a hit. 2. The league moved the kickoff up because of the high level of injuries (primarily concussions) suffered by players on kickoff returns. However, I haven't seen anything that statistically shows it was the returners suffering those injuries. I also do not recall the NFL stating it was because of injuries to returners. Anecdotally speaking, it appears to me that, far more often, it is players from the coverage team colliding with one another in their attempts to tackle the returner - or a coverage guy being leveled by a blocker because he was focused on the returner and never saw the block coming (much like a wide receiver coming over the middle) My point is the same as I made in a previous post and that several others have made as well: This seems to be a debate based purely on perception and anecdotal evidence. Until somebody finds statistics to support one side or the other that is all it is. Edited June 12, 2014 by billsfan1959 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#34fan Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) 1. While the sole focus of the D may not be crushing the wideout, if a DB or a LB has the opportunity to lay as legally (and sometimes illegally) vicious a hit as he can on a wideout, he is going to do it almost every time. Every year, we have DBs and LBs fined/suspended for delivering such vicious hits on receivers who are in no position to protect themselves. In addition, the better wide receivers tend to have more passes thrown to them, which means more opportunities to sustain such a hit. 2. The league moved the kickoff up because of the high level of injuries (primarily concussions) suffered by players on kickoff returns. However, I haven't seen anything that statistically shows it was the returners suffering those injuries. I also do not recall the NFL stating it was because of injuries to returners. Anecdotally speaking, it appears to me that, far more often, it is players from the coverage team colliding with one another in their attempts to tackle the returner - or a coverage guy being leveled by a blocker because he was focused on the returner and never saw the block coming (much like a wide receiver coming over the middle) My point is the same as I made in a previous post and that several others have made as well: This seems to be a debate based purely on perception and anecdotal evidence. Until somebody finds statistics to support one side or the other that is all it is. The question isn't whether or not there are stats to support the argument either way. The question is whether or not we want Watkins to be the ONE stat everyone points to as a reason NOT to do this. To me, a kick returner is a specialist. At the very least, there should be some significant evidence a player can excel at the job. As someone who watches tons of Clemson/ACC football, I don't recall Sammy being used extensively at that position. Hester and Sproles were established, and wildly successful return men way before the NFL. Even CJ Spiller was known for his spectacular college returns. Sam Watkins has maybe two really good ones that I recall. Many years ago there was a kick returner from FSU named Tamarick Vanover. -Hands down, the BEST I EVER SAW. Kid had a knack for running through walls and simply could not be caught from behind. He was 100% Juggernaut. Vanover took those talents to the KC Chiefs where he was successful. Thing is, he couldn't do much else. I see Sammy Watkins as the same, but in reverse. -He's proven he can catch with the NCAA's best. -Watkins should be allowed to develop that talent, (unimpeded), at the pro level. Edited June 23, 2014 by #34fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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