Anyone else concerned about special teams?

[White Linen]

We lead the entire NFL in the amount of drives (207), were 25th (1.53) in points per drive and 26th (26.7) yds per drive. I'm sure there's a thousand different ways to look at these numbers but it can only put a significant amount of pressure on your special teams. We basically started more drives than any other team and did very very little with them. Our special teams needs our offense to move the ball. Crossman deserves every bit of criticism he's gotten, he hasn't been good, but I'm hoping with some significant personnel help and hopefully a more efficient offense the special teams unit can greatly improve.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Triple Threat

[BuffaloBillsForever]

Special teams was our Achilles Heel last season and I haven't seen any significant steps to correct our problems. Just the addition of Dixon and Graham and our ST coach "breaking it down" for players, ain't gonna fix it.

 

http://www.buffalobi...35-4cdba15d4be0

 

Also why the heck is CJ Spiller back there returning kicks? Seems that puts him at unnecessary risk.

 

C

 

This topic has been beaten to death. Here is an in-depth thread already created with arguments from both his detractors and apologists.

 

http://forums.twobil...ossmanst-units/

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/165042-crossman-retained/

Edited June 8, 2014 by BuffaloBillsForever

[metzelaars_lives]

Nope.

[nucci]

Sure why not? I was just saying we don't have enough to worry about.

Considering we haven't practiced yet, it's a perfect time to worry about this.

[Manther]

Problem is crossmans units have traditionally gotten worse, not better.

 

We added special teams talent to the roster - and seemingly without hurting the players primary positions - so that's good - but I put zero confidence in Crossman as a coach.

I am concerned. As long as Crossman is there I am concerned. It is also dissappointing we have given him so many resources to offset his inability to coach!

[YoloinOhio]

Special teams was our Achilles Heel last season and I haven't seen any significant steps to correct our problems. Just the addition of Dixon and Graham and our ST coach "breaking it down" for players, ain't gonna fix it.

 

http://www.buffalobi...35-4cdba15d4be0

 

Also why the heck is CJ Spiller back there returning kicks? Seems that puts him at unnecessary risk.

 

C

i have no problem with CJ (or Leodis) returning kicks THIS season, because we actually have depth behind them now. I obviously don't want them to get hurt but last year I literally held my breath every time Leo fielded a punt. If CJ is the best weapon to put there, put him the HE*L out there. Personally I like Goodwin out there because he is one of, if the not the, fastest player in the league and also not a starter.

[cale]

Considering we haven't practiced yet, it's a perfect time to worry about this.

 

You know they've had OTAs right? There was a bit in the link I provided where Crossman was giving his men "instructions." I'm not convinced that's gonna do it.

 

This topic has been beaten to death. Here is an in-depth thread already created with arguments from both his detractors and apologists.

 

http://forums.twobil...ossmanst-units/

 

http://forums.twobil...ssman-retained/

 

Collectively, the last post on there was mid January. It's now June. Crossman is a concern. But I'm just wondering strategically and personnel wise what we've done to address the shortcomings since the coach isn't going anywhere.

 

The Bills in the past have sometimes engaged in magical thinking. Not doing anything to address concerns and just hoping a year later they'll be better (think Ryan Fitzpatrick and a porous defense). I'm seeing the same pattern re-emerge this year per special teams.

 

Maybe, I'm just not looking hard enough. If anything I'm hoping someone can convince me otherwise.

 

We've added some serious talent on the offense. We've even shored up the defense a little bit. But at least we have halfway decent coordinators (granted the jury is out on Hackett) except on special teams where the coordinator has a crappy track record. Otherwise things has been pretty status quo on special teams. Will two ST role players really make a difference?

 

Hence my soliciting opinions.

 

C

Edited June 9, 2014 by cale

[YoloinOhio]

You know they've had OTAs right? There was a bit in the link I provided where Crossman was giving his men "instructions." I'm not convinced that's gonna do it.

 

 

 

Collectively, the last post on there was mid January. It's now June. Crossman is a concern. But I'm just wondering strategically and personnel wise what we've done to address the shortcomings since the coach isn't going anywhere.

 

The Bills in the past have sometimes engaged in magical thinking. Not doing anything to address concerns and just hoping a year later they'll be better (think Ryan Fitzpatrick and a porous defense). I'm seeing the same pattern re-emerge this year per special teams.

 

Maybe, I'm just not looking hard enough. If anything I'm hoping someone can convince me otherwise.

 

We've added some serious talent on the offense. We've even shored up the defense a little bit. But at least we have halfway decent coordinators (granted the jury is out on Hackett) except on special teams where the coordinator has a crappy track record. But ST has been pretty status quo.

 

Hence my soliciting opinions.

 

C

If the personnel question isn't answered in this thread you will find it in another. Almost everyone they brought in as a FA or in the draft, at least past the 2nd rd) is a ST stud.

[klos63]

I think that the two most would agree on is an upgrade at punter and coach. Hopefully Dixon and graham help solidify coverage and we have a solid kicker and good return men.

When we hired Marv as coach , based on his past with the Chiefs I thought it was a lousy choice, obviously I was wrong. Since then I've stopped assuming that a coach will duplicate his teams performance wherever he coaches, it's based on talent, the situation and sometimes a crapshoot. It's easy to **** on the coaches when the team doesn't perform well, but easy doesn't mean right. Carpenter had a fantastic year after not being able to find a job elsewhere, if he had a bad year, Crossman would get criticized for it. I guess I'm tired of listening to people who when it really comes down to it(myself included) have no clue as to how to properly coach a team and therefore aren't qualified to critique. I know it's what fans do, but sometimes we sound really stupid. I think this is one case. He is not here because he is Marrones friend, being comfortable with a coach and his style are good reasons to have him on your staff, you need to work well with someone. Give him the talent and let's see what he can do. When a team lacks depth like we did last year, generally special teams suffer. Our depth is better and we can focus some acquisitions for ST. I think we will see a big improvement this coming season.

[YoloinOhio]

When we hired Marv as coach , based on his past with the Chiefs I thought it was a lousy choice, obviously I was wrong. Since then I've stopped assuming that a coach will duplicate his teams performance wherever he coaches, it's based on talent, the situation and sometimes a crapshoot. It's easy to **** on the coaches when the team doesn't perform well, but easy doesn't mean right. Carpenter had a fantastic year after not being able to find a job elsewhere, if he had a bad year, Crossman would get criticized for it. I guess I'm tired of listening to people who when it really comes down to it(myself included) have no clue as to how to properly coach a team and therefore aren't qualified to critique. I know it's what fans do, but sometimes we sound really stupid. I think this is one case. He is not here because he is Marrones friend, being comfortable with a coach and his style are good reasons to have him on your staff, you need to work well with someone. Give him the talent and let's see what he can do. When a team lacks depth like we did last year, generally special teams suffer. Our depth is better and we can focus some acquisitions for ST. I think we will see a big improvement this coming season.

This is true and the case with every NFL team. Good post.

[NoSaint]

When we hired Marv as coach , based on his past with the Chiefs I thought it was a lousy choice, obviously I was wrong. Since then I've stopped assuming that a coach will duplicate his teams performance wherever he coaches, it's based on talent, the situation and sometimes a crapshoot. It's easy to **** on the coaches when the team doesn't perform well, but easy doesn't mean right. Carpenter had a fantastic year after not being able to find a job elsewhere, if he had a bad year, Crossman would get criticized for it. I guess I'm tired of listening to people who when it really comes down to it(myself included) have no clue as to how to properly coach a team and therefore aren't qualified to critique. I know it's what fans do, but sometimes we sound really stupid. I think this is one case. He is not here because he is Marrones friend, being comfortable with a coach and his style are good reasons to have him on your staff, you need to work well with someone. Give him the talent and let's see what he can do. When a team lacks depth like we did last year, generally special teams suffer. Our depth is better and we can focus some acquisitions for ST. I think we will see a big improvement this coming season.

 

Marv having the meat and potatoes of his KC career be .500 after being good enough to get a HC shot is very dissimilar to Crossman being ranked in the bottom 3-4 units for most of his career as a special teams coach in the nfl spanning a decade and multiple teams including our own. He's been 30th, 30th, and 29th his last 3 years.

 

In Detroit he was able to have his team that he coached for several years have blunders the likes of which I've never seen - one guy took a knee at the 5 on a kick return. And that wasn't the low point of a season that he gave up touchdowns in unheard of rates at times.

 

While his unit should be better this year, I think a strong coach would have this group in the top 5-10 across the board and Crossman more than likely sees them underachieve and be simply in the middle of the pack. Good enough to buy a year but unfortunately for us still not getting the most out of the talent he has. While past track record isn't 100% indicative of future results- I'd venture few do a 180 ten years into their career. Possible, but not likely.

[Manther]

Marv having the meat and potatoes of his KC career be .500 after being good enough to get a HC shot is very dissimilar to Crossman being ranked in the bottom 3-4 units for most of his career as a special teams coach in the nfl spanning a decade and multiple teams including our own. He's been 30th, 30th, and 29th his last 3 years.

 

In Detroit he was able to have his team that he coached for several years have blunders the likes of which I've never seen - one guy took a knee at the 5 on a kick return. And that wasn't the low point of a season that he gave up touchdowns in unheard of rates at times.

 

While his unit should be better this year, I think a strong coach would have this group in the top 5-10 across the board and Crossman more than likely sees them underachieve and be simply in the middle of the pack. Good enough to buy a year but unfortunately for us still not getting the most out of the talent he has. While past track record isn't 100% indicative of future results- I'd venture few do a 180 ten years into their career. Possible, but not likely.

Agreed. well said.

[SJDK]

Pays to be friends with Marrone apparently. Crossman took one of the better special teams units in the league to one of the worst and gets to keep his job. Basically the same thing he did in Detroit before he got run out of town. For many years special teams was one of the only things we were good at. Now it's our weakness and costs us games (Cinci). Hopefully they have this guy on a short leash. They got him players so let's see what he can do with them

Does anybody else wonder how awkward it must be for Schwartz and Crossman to be on the same staff after Schwartz fired him? ... Speaking of friends

[NoSaint]

 

Does anybody else wonder how awkward it must be for Schwartz and Crossman to be on the same staff after Schwartz fired him? ... Speaking of friends

 

We technically stole him away, amusingly enough. Marrone was granted permission to interview him for a lateral move, before Schwartz would have fired him likely. There was even a thread, perhaps second to Skelton for Mario on BBs résumé, celebrating that we had officially become a powerhouse because we were able to steal a prized coach from a playoff contender for a lateral move.

Edited June 9, 2014 by NoSaint

[klos63]

Marv having the meat and potatoes of his KC career be .500 after being good enough to get a HC shot is very dissimilar to Crossman being ranked in the bottom 3-4 units for most of his career as a special teams coach in the nfl spanning a decade and multiple teams including our own. He's been 30th, 30th, and 29th his last 3 years.

 

In Detroit he was able to have his team that he coached for several years have blunders the likes of which I've never seen - one guy took a knee at the 5 on a kick return. And that wasn't the low point of a season that he gave up touchdowns in unheard of rates at times.

 

While his unit should be better this year, I think a strong coach would have this group in the top 5-10 across the board and Crossman more than likely sees them underachieve and be simply in the middle of the pack. Good enough to buy a year but unfortunately for us still not getting the most out of the talent he has. While past track record isn't 100% indicative of future results- I'd venture few do a 180 ten years into their career. Possible, but not likely.

That's a guess based on nothing more than your opinion that Crossman is no good. You have nothing regarding actual performances to base that prediction on. I think we will have a good idea after this season if he can coach this team well or not.

[Kirby Jackson]

That's a guess based on nothing more than your opinion that Crossman is no good. You have nothing regarding actual performances to base that prediction on. I think we will have a good idea after this season if he can coach this team well or not.

I think that he is basing it off of Crossman's history as a special team's coach. We don't know if Lane Kiffin can coach this team either but his track record would say no. Edited June 9, 2014 by Kirby Jackson

[NoSaint]

That's a guess based on nothing more than your opinion that Crossman is no good. You have nothing regarding actual performances to base that prediction on. I think we will have a good idea after this season if he can coach this team well or not.

 

I've watched his units in Carolina and Detroit and now buffalo consistently struggle and underachieve. I've seen them look unprepared, and they are documented as regularly being not just in the bottom half but often the bottom 3-4 in the entire league. I've seen him have historically bad performances.

 

I'm looking at a unit that has a good kicker, great returners, Easley likely to make the roster solely as a gunner, and guys like Dixon and graham who were keyed on as contributors that could also be special teams aces. We have highly prioritized special teams talent. This group should be at the top of the rankings, but based on their coach I'm guessing they likely underachieve a little.

 

Yes, it's a guess but I feel like I'm basing it on quite a bit of information I've gathered. It's not like he slept with my gf and I want to see him fail now- it's that there's no argument to be made that he's an above average coach based on his résumé other than "you never know" and the odds there go down each year he can't string together positive results.

[Matt in KC]

I'm curious if Easley makes the team just as a special teamer. He was great as a gunner; we just needed another one like him coming from the left. . . .

 

Who do you think should be our primary and back-up punt returners? McKelvin made me nervous back there last year, and I'm not "sold" on him, but would be fine with him in a back-up role.

[NoSaint]

I'm curious if Easley makes the team just as a special teamer. He was great as a gunner; we just needed another one like him coming from the left. . . .

 

Who do you think should be our primary and back-up punt returners? McKelvin made me nervous back there last year, and I'm not "sold" on him, but would be fine with him in a back-up role.

 

I think as far as guys that aren't expected to contribute at their true position go - Easley is as close to a lock as you can get. Between marrone calling him out as a guy they needed more guys like and me not being all that terribly excited about anyone he's competing with... As a guy 50-53 on the roster I want either to see HUGE upside, or one role that can be done better than anyone else. Easley is the latter as a gunner, and I don't think Barden, hogan or Elliot have too much higher a ceiling at WR.

[cale]

That's a guess based on nothing more than your opinion that Crossman is no good. You have nothing regarding actual performances to base that prediction on. I think we will have a good idea after this season if he can coach this team well or not.

 

This is simply not true. There is rankings/performance data to show how Crossman's units have historically underperformed including our own last season. There aren't mountains of posts in threads about this guy solely based on our collective "feelings."

 

You can make the case that he may have needed better talent. But odds are DeHaven would have gotten more production out of the same unit last season.

 

C

Edited June 9, 2014 by cale