Kirby Jackson Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Weird how he was comparing himself to gronk, since he fancies himself a WR. On a side note- can you imagine if they ended up with gronk and graham instead of Hernandez? It was a few year back on the day that they both broke the TE receiving record. If you recall, Graham broke it and then Gronk broke his record like an hour later (in a blowout). It may have just been sour grapes. Gronk and Graham would have been ridiculous. Hernandez was a really good player but he murders people (like lots of people). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 It was a few year back on the day that they both broke the TE receiving record. If you recall, Graham broke it and then Gronk broke his record like an hour later (in a blowout). It may have just been sour grapes. Gronk and Graham would have been ridiculous. Hernandez was a really good player but he murders people (like lots of people). Oh I certainly remember- my comment was near 100% sour grapes as it bugs me that he was all about getting the tight end yardage record.... even though he's totally a WR now that the tag is discussed. It's all business though, I get it. I hear Hernandez holds the record for murders in a season, and consecutive years with a murder regardless of position he's listed at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) He can argue he's the Queen of England, but he's a TE and never listed as otherwise by the team. As NoSaint said, he puts his hand on the ground once, he's a TE. The analysis should be simple. Under Article 9, Section 2 of the CBA, [T]he tender will apply to the position in which the player participated in the most plays. Thus, if Graham was lined up wide or in the slot more times than he was lined up as a tight end, he's a receiver. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/01/13/franchise-tag-fight-looming-between-saints-and-graham/ Edited January 27, 2014 by papazoid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 The analysis should be simple. Under Article 9, Section 2 of the CBA, [T]he tender will apply to the position in which the player participated in the most plays. Thus, if Graham was lined up wide or in the slot more times than he was lined up as a tight end, he's a receiver. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/01/13/franchise-tag-fight-looming-between-saints-and-graham/ unfortunately, the clear counterargument will be that part of a TEs job responsibility is to lineup in the slot as well..... and then the water gets muddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 unfortunately, the clear counterargument will be that part of a TEs job responsibility is to lineup in the slot as well..... and then the water gets muddy. it's not muddy at all....the CBA definition is the ONLY one that matters. if he was lined up right next to an OT he is a TE. if he was lined up wide or in the slot he's a WR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) it's not muddy at all....the CBA definition is the ONLY one that matters. if he was lined up right next to an OT he is a TE. if he was lined up wide or in the slot he's a WR. and im saying i still dont think its that clear - when the saints walk in with a pile of data that every tight end in the league is lining up in the slot regularly, its going to get murky. When they pull out plenty of quotes from his own mouth about being a TE, its not going to help him. he very well may win, but i think you are definitely overstating how simple it will be. the last TE pulled out of the argument early and settled for nowhere near WR money on a deal that was only 2 years long. while i dont think a team really wants to go here, it doesnt seem agents have wanted to push it yet either. Edited January 27, 2014 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBuff423 Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 and im saying i still dont think its that clear - when the saints walk in with a pile of data that every tight end in the league is lining up in the slot regularly, its going to get murky. When they pull out plenty of quotes from his own mouth about being a TE, its not going to help him. he very well may win, but i think you are definitely overstating how simple it will be Indeed. Furthermore, I hate how self-serving it is to constantly redefine his job for a higher pay. So, if by definition of duties my job closely resembles that of a CEO, I should argue to get paid like one? Come on, it's bullsh*t...add to the fact that if he were a WR instead of a TE, that changes the Saints roster minimums per league rules as well. So, all in all...just shut the f'up and get paid nicely. And remember, what you will make in a one year, many good, hard-working people won't make in a lifetime. Not to mention your edorsements, pension, and fringe benefits. So let's cut with the Poor Me b.s. and just go out and play...you're gonna get paid..like..a LOT! Enjoy it, and kudos to you, but be grateful and play your heart out and love the game. That's all us as fans are asking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 and im saying i still dont think its that clear - when the saints walk in with a pile of data that every tight end in the league is lining up in the slot regularly, its going to get murky. When they pull out plenty of quotes from his own mouth about being a TE, its not going to help him. he very well may win, but i think you are definitely overstating how simple it will be when it comes to the Franchise Tag value...it's crystal clear. and it doesn't matter where other tight ends lined up or what he and others call his position ....it only matters where jimmy graham lined up for purposes of jimmy graham's franchise tag value. he is a TE, but if they Tag him and can't come to a long term agreement....he will be paid as a WR if he lined up outside more than he did next to a OT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) and im saying i still dont think its that clear - when the saints walk in with a pile of data that every tight end in the league is lining up in the slot regularly, its going to get murky. When they pull out plenty of quotes from his own mouth about being a TE, its not going to help him. he very well may win, but i think you are definitely overstating how simple it will be This topic has been debated by the NOLA media for quite sometime. The reality is that it only matters for his tag value. It is unlikely that he will play under the tag. The long term contract will look more like a high end WR (Harvin or Wallace type of deal). The worst case scenario for the Saints is that they have to tag him as a WR. The worst case scenario for Graham is getting tagged as a TE. Both sides want a long term deal and there have been a few deals in recent years to set the market. Edited January 27, 2014 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Indeed. Furthermore, I hate how self-serving it is to constantly redefine his job for a higher pay. So, if by definition of duties my job closely resembles that of a CEO, I should argue to get paid like one? Come on, it's bullsh*t...add to the fact that if he were a WR instead of a TE, that changes the Saints roster minimums per league rules as well. So, all in all...just shut the f'up and get paid nicely. And remember, what you will make in a one year, many good, hard-working people won't make in a lifetime. Not to mention your edorsements, pension, and fringe benefits. So let's cut with the Poor Me b.s. and just go out and play...you're gonna get paid..like..a LOT! Enjoy it, and kudos to you, but be grateful and play your heart out and love the game. That's all us as fans are asking... not that it matters, but there are a lot of folks who get paid differently from one day to the next depending if they are considered skilled or unskilled. there are no league rules that say you have to have a certain amount of WR's or TE's. you just can't exceed the maximum roster limit. you could have 10 TE's and zero WR's if you wanted. all these guys are over paid......but none of that matters either. I have no idea what you do, but if you could get 50,000 folks to pay $100 to watch you do it, then you could make crazy money too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 In both the Finley and Hernandez negotiation their agents used this argument. In both cases their clients were able to avoid the tag and signed long term deals. I should have said "used" not "won" the argument but regardless it worked. Yes, you should have. Neither was tagged. Finlay signed a 2 year contract for something between the WR and the TE tag. His own agent said: "Baratz said he doesn’t think Finley’s argument would have swayed an arbitrator because of the precedent it would have set, but thinks the soundness of it helped get a contract done quickly with the Packers". Hernandez did not use this argument that I could find. Many in the press speculated that he would. Do you have a link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) when it comes to the Franchise Tag value...it's crystal clear. and it doesn't matter where other tight ends lined up or what he and others call his position ....it only matters where jimmy graham lined up for purposes of jimmy graham's franchise tag value. he is a TE, but if they Tag him and can't come to a long term agreement....he will be paid as a WR if he lined up outside more than he did next to a OT. heres where i think the problem is - the term "tight end" i dont think is ever fully defined as "in line blocker thats eligible to catch" within the CBA and the precedent/definition would be defined in the real time of the case. hence both sides think they have valid arguments to what the definition of the position is. if they use your definition, sure its much easier - but is your definition an accurate description of the position? I think many would argue its not a fair descriptor of the position and that the 280 lbs TE that runs a 4.9 40 and is 90% blocker doesnt exist any longer and the gates, gonzalez, hernandez, finley, gronk, witten, jared cook, vernon davis and graham 100 catch and often in the slot definition is more relevant today. How many TEs can threaten (either directly like finley or graham, or simply theoretically discussed in media discussion like hernandez or i believe jared cook) to be WRs before the definition of TE is fundamentally changed? youd be hardpressed to convince me that graham has more in common with megatron, larry fitz, percy harvin, mike wallace and brandon marshall than he does on a day by day, play by play basis with gronk, witten, gates, vernon davis and jared cook This topic has been debated by the NOLA media for quite sometime. The reality is that it only matters for his tag value. It is unlikely that he will play under the tag. The long term contract will look more like a high end WR (Harvin or Wallace type of deal). The worst case scenario for the Saints is that they have to tag him as a WR. The worst case scenario for Graham is getting tagged as a TE. Both sides want a long term deal and there have been a few deals in recent years to set the market. i think the gronk one, with a little bump because he didnt take the early raise would be the parameters we are looking at. Both receiving tight ends, both super physical, both worry me on a long term durability standpoint. Edited January 27, 2014 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malazan Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 The problem being, how often do other TEs lineup at WR? A lot. How often do WRs go in line with a hand on the ground? Never. I think its a fair debate and will be an interesting one given the changing nature of the nfl tight end and spread offenses. It's definitely interesting and I think the tag should be adjusted to groups. On offense, it should be Qbs/Catchers/Runners/Line. If more than 50% of your touches come through the air, you're a catcher. We're going to keep seeing these lawsuits as players and teams jockey for 'this guy is actually a..." situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Lets tag Byrd, they tag Graham. Then make a trade!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRT88 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Graham may be unhappy but there is nothing he can do about it. The guy wants WR money but he plays TE. He cant force a trade and sitting out a season or half the season isn't going to get him what he wants either. These guys need to drop the ego and tell their agents that hey get me 5 years 40 million with 28 guaranteed. At the end of the day if you have a right money manager, there's no real difference between 8 million and 10 million a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pills -N- Bills Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 When I hang with athletes/celebs I don't repeat what they say since I assume it is to be kept private. Because your cool like that right ? Give me a break Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristocrat Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 I'd consider swapping our firsts if we get Colston in return... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NDBUFFCUSEFAN Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Because your cool like that right ? Give me a break Hanging out with famous people doesn't make you cool, I live in SoCal so I have run into quite a few of them out here and hung out with several. I don't make a post every time I do because it is not a big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan da Man Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 At the end of the day if you have a right money manager, there's no real difference between 8 million and 10 million a year. That is ridiculous. Of course there's a difference...a $2M per year difference. That $ managed appropriately can do a lot of good for a lot of people or that difference alone sets up another generation of your family for financial independence. Silly statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Drew Brees: Jimmy Graham a tight end, not a receiver. According to Pro Football Focus, Graham run-blocked on just 33 percent of his snaps http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000319666/article/drew-brees-jimmy-graham-a-tight-end-not-a-receiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts