1billsfan Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) As im watching indy mount a comeback, it just goes to show you in todays day and age a top flight QB is a requirement. I hope I am wrong but I just dont see it in Manuel, although the sample size is small it sure was rather stinky. Absolutely false statement, if winning the Superbowl is your goal. Eli Manning, Ben Rothlesberger, Joe Flacco all have as many Superbowl rings or more than Peyton Manning. None of those three would ever be considered anywhere near being looked at as an all time great. If Kaepernick, Wilson, Rivers ect win it all this year then the beat goes on dismissing this myth. IMO, EJ Manuel is the type of potential franchise QB who in time could become great enough to win you a Superbowl with a well built team around him. That's the model I see the Bills using. With the defense getting much better, they are starting to look to have the potential of those Giant teams that won it all after getting into the playoffs and getting on a roll as a team. Edited January 6, 2014 by 1billsfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Off the top of my head, the biggest QB errors the Bills have made in the last decade are passing on Kaepernick and Wilson. ..... I don't see those as errors as such. To me it comes back to cause and effect. Locking into Fitz caused the Bills FO to stupidly(IMO) not look for a better QB. In the years that Fitz was starting we didn't look for anyone better. It perhaps could have been viewed as errors had we been seeking a QB and grabbed the wrong one......but we weren't even looking. The error was assuming a previous 7th round journeyman could help elevate the team to the SB(even playoffs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Montana and Young Staubach and Aikman Favre and Starr Brady and Bledsoe Bradshaw and Roethlisberger Marino and Griese LOL Elway and Manning What about Kemp and Lamonica? Oh wait, never mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) True about the running backs; they do have targets like Reggie Wayne (a future HOFer IMO), Hilton, Fleener, and Allen. Buffalo might have one guy (Stevie) that stacks up against that corps. Kind of a blessing and a curse. We have 2 great running backs but a bad offensive line. FJ learned how to overcome it a while ago it but CJ is still learning. A rookie QB won't survive most of the time but I think EJ did well enough considering. Of all the stats that QB's have the one I want to know the most is how long the QB has the ball after his 1st read. Most QB's you would think around 2 secs at most. I can see Brady being about 5 and that's all because of his line. Edited January 6, 2014 by The Wiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan_34 Posted January 6, 2014 Author Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) Absolutely false statement, if winning the Superbowl is your goal. Eli Manning, Ben Rothlesberger, Joe Flacco all have as many Superbowl rings or more than Peyton Manning. None of those three would ever be considered anywhere near being looked at as an all time great. If Kaepernick, Wilson, Rivers ect win it all this year then the beat goes on dismissing this myth. IMO, EJ Manuel is the type of potential franchise QB who in time could become great enough to win you a Superbowl with a well built team around him. That's the model I see the Bills using. With the defense getting much better, they are starting to look to have the potential of those Giant teams that won it all after getting into the playoffs and getting on a roll as a team. when the qbs you mentioned won the super bowls their play was definitely elite. Go back and look at their level of play. The days of a trent dilfer type hoisting the lombardi are long gone. The other Qbs you mention are pretty damn good, so your somewhat contradicting yourself. But everyone has their own take thats what makes this board interesting. Edited January 6, 2014 by billsfan_34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 I think ur completely overreacting to something that just happened vs something that most of us watched happen in late 80's Go on YouTube and watch some highlights of Kelly in those early years throwing to guys like Chris Burkett, Riddick, Harmon, some guy named Flip Johnson who I don't even remember, etc. Besides Reed who was just emerging that team really didn't have any other receivers to speak of Ya no, I'm pretty much the polar opposite of "recency bias" guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) Montana and Young Staubach and Aikman Favre and Starr Brady and Bledsoe Bradshaw and Roethlisberger Marino and Griese LOL Elway and Manning Of course, I am not sure how important the first 30 years after the merger really are to the debate. As Bills fans can tell you.....there was a time when journeyman QB's could win a SB with a dominant roster. Free agency evened out the rosters and then a heavy rules emphasis on the passing game basically made it impossible for Doug Williams, Mark Rypien and Jeff Hostetler to win a Super Bowl in any given season. An eternity ago, Brad Johnson was the last QB to win a SB that wasn't on his way to enshrinement. Or should I say ISN'T on his way, as they are all still active. Some of these dudes might play 20 seasons the way the league is now. I think this is an important point. Guys like Bradshaw and Kelly were pretty much shot after a decade in the NFL. Sixteen years in.....Manning just had his best season ever. There is going to be a lot of overlap in franchise QB careers.......which means MORE chances for teams to get theirs. This year there is likely to be another future HOF QB hoisting the Lombardi trophy.......all 4 remaining AFC passers are having HOF careers......in the NFC there are 3 dynamic and supremely talented and very young QB's with a very good chance at HOF careers and of course, the LOCK in Drew Brees. Edited January 6, 2014 by BADOLBEELZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CardinalScotts Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 IF KC kicks a field goal and wins it we are all here spouting that Luck cost them the game. i like Luck and think he'll be good but those were two bad teams one a product of a pathetic schedule playing back up qb's nearly all year and the other a product of a weak division neither one is near a super bowl team and likely will go backwards next year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QB Bills Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Off the top of my head, the biggest QB errors the Bills have made in the last decade are passing on Kaepernick and Wilson. In 2006 they drafted Donte Whitner instead of Jay Cutler but I'm not sure Cutler is the kind of player Bills fans would have been satisfied with. In 2011 I suppose they could have packaged multiple draft picks to move up for Cam Newton. We don't know if Carolina would have traded though. Ditto in 2004 for Roethlisberger. The opportunity to draft one of these guys is rare. When one of them is within reach, you have to recognize the opportunity and make it happen. You need a bit of luck to get one in your sights and you need a bit of luck that the player will become the player you hope he'll become. During this same time period plenty of first round QBs busted so there's that too. The worst qb error they made in the last decade was selecting Jp losman. It potentially cost them Aaron Rodgers the following year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) Colts have been blessed w/QB's during its years... Before the whole Elway thing, they had Bert Jones, who was the second pick overall in 1973. If Elway plays for the Colts, they literally walk into 4 franchise QB's over the course of 40 years! And before that Unitas and Morrell! Wow... Consider the Bears. They have Cutler now, but who was their last franchise QB? Sid Luckman in the 1940's... 1940's! LoL... Edited January 6, 2014 by ExiledInIllinois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) when the qbs you mentioned won the super bowls their play was definitely elite. Go back and look at their level of play. The days of a trent dilfer type hoisting the lombardi are long gone. The other Qbs you mention are pretty damn good, so your somewhat contradicting yourself. But everyone has their own take thats what makes this board interesting. When you were talking about Andrew Luck and that your team requires that kind of elite franchise QB I assumed you were talking about elite QBs like Manning, Brady and Brees. So there's no contradiction in what I said. Eli, Ben and Joe are not anywhere near that kind of status. So my point is that it is absolutely NOT a requirement to have an elite franchise QB if your goal is to win a Superbowl or two. I think too many fans on this board have an unrealistic and unhealthy Manning and Brady all time great QB envy, when they should let it go and look at the Bills as a franchise striving to win a Superbowl the way successful franchises like the Giants, Steelers and Ravens do it. With a solid team and a QB that gets hot at playoff time. Edited January 6, 2014 by 1billsfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan_34 Posted January 6, 2014 Author Share Posted January 6, 2014 When you were talking about Andrew Luck and that your team requires that kind of elite franchise QB I assumed you were talking about elite QBs like Manning, Brady and Brees. So there's no contradiction in what I said. Eli, Ben and Joe are not anywhere near that kind of status. So my point is that it is absolutely NOT a requirement to have an elite franchise QB if your goal is to win a Superbowl or two. I think too many fans on this board have an unrealistic and unhealthy Manning and Brady all time great QB envy, when they should let it go and look at the Bills as a franchise striving to win a Superbowl the way successful franchises like the Giants, Steelers and Ravens do it. With a solid team and a QB that gets hot at playoff time. The teams that win in this league now have elite qb's. And i think our view of who is elite differs. I think big ben, eli, and flacco are pretty damn good although a down year for them this season. I expect them to bounce back next year. Of course manning, brady, brees, rogers, kap are the elite of the elite, but the others are pretty damn good. Put any of them on the Bills and we are in playoffs right now. Its ok for us to disagree, thats what males it fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 When you were talking about Andrew Luck and that your team requires that kind of elite franchise QB I assumed you were talking about elite QBs like Manning, Brady and Brees. So there's no contradiction in what I said. Eli, Ben and Joe are not anywhere near that kind of status. So my point is that it is absolutely NOT a requirement to have an elite franchise QB if your goal is to win a Superbowl or two. I think too many fans on this board have an unrealistic and unhealthy Manning and Brady all time great QB envy, when they should let it go and look at the Bills as a franchise striving to win a Superbowl the way successful franchises like the Giants, Steelers and Ravens do it. With a solid team and a QB that gets hot at playoff time. Those QB's are still pretty darn good. They may have off years and bad games but they had the potential to play like HoFers that came at the right time. After Eli got hot his first Superbowl, he would start the rest of his career because everyone has seen how well he can play. The trick is, finding and believing in a guy who CAN play at a high level and string together a couple playoff wins. That's why I'm not big on Matt Ryan. Sure he's a good QB but his best game doesn't come close to what Eli and Flacco did when they got hot. Heck, last year that kid couldn't even finish a game strongly, he melted down against Seattle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Those QB's are still pretty darn good. They may have off years and bad games but they had the potential to play like HoFers that came at the right time. After Eli got hot his first Superbowl, he would start the rest of his career because everyone has seen how well he can play. The trick is, finding and believing in a guy who CAN play at a high level and string together a couple playoff wins. That's why I'm not big on Matt Ryan. Sure he's a good QB but his best game doesn't come close to what Eli and Flacco did when they got hot. Heck, last year that kid couldn't even finish a game strongly, he melted down against Seattle. Just to put things in perspective... EJ Manuel - rookie season 77.7 QB rating 4-6 QB record 58.8 completion percentage Eli Manning - rookie season 55.4 QB rating 1-6 QB record 58.5 completion percentage Also Manuel was 4-0 in his college bowl career which are the only "playoff" type games in college. So maybe the trick is believing that the Bills found their franchise QB EJ Manuel. Bills fans need to at least give him a shot in 2014. I know I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Kind of a blessing and a curse. We have 2 great running backs but a bad offensive line. FJ learned how to overcome it a while ago it but CJ is still learning. A rookie QB won't survive most of the time but I think EJ did well enough considering. Of all the stats that QB's have the one I want to know the most is how long the QB has the ball after his 1st read. Most QB's you would think around 2 secs at most. I can see Brady being about 5 and that's all because of his line. We don't have a bad offensive line; we have an average offensive line that looks worse than it is because (a) the OL last year was a top 5 unit, and (b) the QBs have brutal pocket presence. Brady's OL is very good at run blocking, but his time in the pocket is a construct of his ability to slide and leak to where the protection is...our guys aren't doing that at all. In fact, I saw no less than 3 different instances in the week 17 matchup against NE alone during which Thad stepped toward the pressure when there was a safe haven of protection available to him. EJ did this many times as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QB Bills Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 The teams that win in this league now have elite qb's. And i think our view of who is elite differs. I think big ben, eli, and flacco are pretty damn good although a down year for them this season. I expect them to bounce back next year. Of course manning, brady, brees, rogers, kap are the elite of the elite, but the others arepretty damn good. Put any of them on the Bills and we are in playoffs right now. Its ok for us to disagree, thats what males it fun. One of these things is not like the other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan_34 Posted January 6, 2014 Author Share Posted January 6, 2014 One of these things is not like the other easy to say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Just to put things in perspective... EJ Manuel - rookie season 77.7 QB rating 4-6 QB record 58.8 completion percentage Eli Manning - rookie season 55.4 QB rating 1-6 QB record 58.5 completion percentage Also Manuel was 4-0 in his college bowl career which are the only "playoff" type games in college. So maybe the trick is believing that the Bills found their franchise QB EJ Manuel. Bills fans need to at least give him a shot in 2014. I know I am. Why are you talking about EJ? I need no perspective and you have no reason to bring up that comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yungmack Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Of course, I am not sure how important the first 30 years after the merger really are to the debate. As Bills fans can tell you.....there was a time when journeyman QB's could win a SB with a dominant roster. Free agency evened out the rosters and then a heavy rules emphasis on the passing game basically made it impossible for Doug Williams, Mark Rypien and Jeff Hostetler to win a Super Bowl in any given season. An eternity ago, Brad Johnson was the last QB to win a SB that wasn't on his way to enshrinement. Or should I say ISN'T on his way, as they are all still active. Some of these dudes might play 20 seasons the way the league is now. I think this is an important point. Guys like Bradshaw and Kelly were pretty much shot after a decade in the NFL. Sixteen years in.....Manning just had his best season ever. There is going to be a lot of overlap in franchise QB careers.......which means MORE chances for teams to get theirs. This year there is likely to be another future HOF QB hoisting the Lombardi trophy.......all 4 remaining AFC passers are having HOF careers......in the NFC there are 3 dynamic and supremely talented and very young QB's with a very good chance at HOF careers and of course, the LOCK in Drew Brees. Very intelligent posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) Very intelligent posting. Thank you, I think the comparisons of QB play past and present are getting harder to make all the time. In 2010, the NFL basically did the equivalent of officially adding a designated hitter to the offensive lineup by effectively eradicating the kill-shot to the QB and to WR's. They basically made it easier to produce offensively while at the same time extending the careers of their most marketable players. It's changed the mentality of teams about rookie QB's. Teams used to be afraid that the beating would shell-shock the rookie QB's. That's not the case any longer. It's still not EASY for a rookie QB but the biggest obstacle was the fear of the big hit while working thru reads......and now it just isn't anywhere near as dangerous. Even going back to 2006 or 2008 takes things out of perspective now. Since 2010.....8 of the top 10 all-time individual passing yardage seasons have happened. Since 2010....5 of the top 10 all-time individual passer rating seasons have happened. Those numbers are crazy out of whack with numbers even from 5 years ago. The league is simply not the same so comparing EJ Manuel's rookie season to guys like Ben Roethlisberger is not an apples/apples comparison any longer. Edited January 6, 2014 by BADOLBEELZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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