Donovan McNabb: HOFer?

[justnzane]

FWIW, I'd put him in over Eli at this point. Even though Elisha has 2 rings, I still consider McNabb better unless Eli starts playing like Peyton.

[jjmac]

McNabb was a great athlete, great college QB, and a very good basketball player. But lets be honest...he did allow himself to get fat and happy, especially in later in his career...early on he was able to rely on his athletisism to overcome some problems with his fundamentals, but as he got older (and that is no sin, it happens to everyone), I would contend he didn't keep himself in tip-top shape, and his game suffered for it. I still remember watching that Super Bowl live...my buddies and I were all pulling for the Eagles...that last drive, he just looked gassed, and like he was moving in slow motion, as time was just ticking off the clock...and this was before TO came out and said anything about it.

 

Now, Jimbo may have been guilty of getting a little puffy in his later years too, but his game didn't erode so badly that he hung on too far past his better days. McNabb could have been even better than he was, I think. The last few off seasons he would come out and say he was "feeling better than he has in years", "best shape of my career"....only to lumber his way through the season.

 

All very true. It made me wonder how motivated McNabb was during the last few years of his career.

[Mr. WEO]

FWIW, I'd put him in over Eli at this point. Even though Elisha has 2 rings, I still consider McNabb better unless Eli starts playing like Peyton.

 

Eli has 2 rings because he plays best in the playoffs. Eli Manning's brother racks up gaudy stats during the season and chokes out in the postseason.

[Orton's Arm]

wasnt in our conference, i didnt really see enough of him outside of playoff games.

 

sure did lose a lot of conference championship games though.

 

never struck me as "elite."

 

god, i can remember vividly him rifling the ball into the turf at his receivers feet on a number of occasions - like his mechanics were off - he held the ball just a millisecond too long.

 

should kurt warner be in the hall?

I agree with you about McNabb not seeming elite. When I'd think about the top QBs in the league, I'd think about Brady, Manning, etc. McNabb seemed one to two steps down from that.

 

As for Kurt Warner, he definitely deserves to be in the Hall! No question.

 

Over the course of his career, Kurt Warner averaged 7.9 yards per pass attempt. That's not just good. That's not just elite. That's truly frightening. To put that number into perspective, Peyton Manning's career average is 7.6 yards per attempt, Tom Brady's is 7.5 yards per attempt, and Joe Montana's is also 7.5 yards per attempt.

 

Kurt Warner led teams to three Super Bowl appearances, including one victory. To those who say he didn't play enough to deserve to be in: he has 32,000 career passing yards, compared to 40,000 for Joe Montana. That's about two seasons' worth of difference. Warner and Montana have very similar TD:INT ratios.

 

Warner's postseason stats are equally impressive. His postseason average of 8.55 yards per attempt is higher than any other QB in NFL history. I'm not a big fan of passer rating, but for what it's worth his average postseason passer rating of 102.8 is the second highest in league history.

 

Warner's three Super Bowl appearances represent the three highest passing yardage totals in Super Bowl history. During the regular season, he achieved a higher percentage of 300+ yard games than any other QB in NFL history. (Kind of the anti-Trent Edwards.) He was the fastest player in NFL history to reach 10,000 passing yards, and tied with Dan Marino to be the fastest player to reach 30,000 career passing yards. Warner and Johnny Unitas are the only two QBs in NFL history to have four consecutive games with a passer rating of over 120.

 

Not only does Warner deserve to be a first ballot Hall of Famer, he should be considered better than most other QBs in the Hall of Fame.

[billsfan89]

I would say yes he is. For 3 consecutive seasons he single handedly (On the offensive end) took an Eagles team whose best receivers were Tod Pinkston and Fred Mitchell to the NFC title game. Then when he got TO a real wide receiver and another receiving threat in Westbrook he dominated the NFC and lost to a team in the Super Bowl that was cheating. Then TO blew up on him and the team's chemistry was wrecked. Had TO not been a dick and stayed with McNabb the Eagles and McNabb would have had a 2-3 year window where they would have at the very least gone to another Super Bowl if not won one.

 

Then once the Eagles got regrouped he took the Eagles to a 5th NFC title game and more playoff appearances. But I would respect the opinion that he isn't a HOFer. He is honestly the epitome of a borderline guy.

[Rico]

Eli has 2 rings because he plays best in the playoffs. Eli Manning's brother racks up gaudy stats during the season and chokes out in the postseason.

Exactly. E-Gump > P-Gump > D-Mac

[Jim in Anchorage]

McNabb might be the most under appreciated QB in the Modern NFL era. He was a guy that did a lot with NO offensive weapons the bulk of his career. Philly put together the most miserable set of receivers for the vast majority of McNabbs stay there and yet he still put up pretty good numbers and led the Eagles to 4 straight championship games and nearly a SB win.

 

That being said, I don't think his resume is quite what it will take to make the HOF nor do I think he should go. But he did accomplish quite a bit throwing to scrubs like Fred Ex (as in EX NFL player), Stallworth, Curtis, Baskett, Avant, R. Brown, Pinkston, Etc...Only talent he got was a brief stint with TO and then a brief stint with DeSean. He was better than people give him credit for...still, don't think that will be enough for the hall, but if he had better options in the prime of his career then who knows.

No. That would be Ben Roethlisberger. 3 SB's 2 wins with no OL. Rarely mentioned as a elite GB.

[FleaMoulds80]

If Andre Reed can't get into the HOF, then McNabb has no reason to even be in the conversation.

 

No. That would be Ben Roethlisberger. 3 SB's 2 wins with no OL. Rarely mentioned as a elite GB.

 

Without that defense, Roethlisberger wouldn't have won those championships.

[C.Biscuit97]

C.Biscuit, I normally agree with you on football stuff, but you are kind of losing me here...what are you basing this opinon on? Keep in mind, I agree with you, Donovan McNabb was a very good NFL QB...and I am not just blowing smoke...the only college football jersey I have ever owned is a McNabb jeresy. I would think you would know by now, you really can't make these kinds of arguments based solely on stats, particularly when comparing players from different eras. You can say that Bradshaw played with two HOF receivers, but another person can argue that neither of those receivers belongs in the HOF, based on their stats...

 

As cliche as it is, you are what you do, when it comes to sports...which is why, I suspect, we all love them so much. McNabb may be a better athlete than Terry Bradshaw, but not a better QB. I think you are going to lose that argument 99.9% of the time, outside of Philadelphia.

 

As for Kelly vs McNabb, Donovan wins the stat wars...but, I would argue, Kelly was far from a slouch, and had more of the "intagibles" that Donovan McNabb seemed to lack....also, McNabb had a huge advantage, for the bulk of his career, in that his teams, had better defensese than Kelly's did...as much as that pains me to say. During Kelly's time in Buffalo, the defense was top notch in 1988, and while not awful (like we have seen so much of in the last decade) but not consistantly great either. And while we think of the K-Gun offense as being a pass happy Offense, it's success was really predicated on running the ball effectively in obvious passing situations...and, Kelly was calling those shots.

 

I am really not trying to run McNabb down, because I do think he was one of the better QB's of his time...but he had some pretty glaring weaknesses too. Maybe it was the "Mr Nice Guy" image he always so carefully cultivated, but he didn't always seem to "have" his team...TO was a punk in Philly, but it never should have gotten as out of hand as it did.

 

To my knowledge, Donovan has not officially retired, just nobody is ringing his phone. Honestly, his skills started declining about three seasons ago...Shanahan may have been a jackass, but I don't think blaming the coach for his inability to adapt to a new offense, makes him look very good. Shanahan didn't trade for him because he wanted to torture him, and lose a bunch of games. Donovan was awful with Washington. And he wasn't great his last couple of years in Philly. And throughout his career, he had multiple game "funks" that most of the greats didin't have. His fundamentals would break down...and he had a JP Losman-like knack for short hopping passes in big games, at the wrong time.

 

Look, I know it's an umpopular opinion but I try to be as honest as possible. The last few years have clouded McNabb's career but he was a very good QB. And for whatever reason, he is always getting put down. And obviously on a Bills' board, Kelly will be slightly overrated.

 

The fact is for most of his career, Don Beebe would have been the best receiver on the Eagles. Those Bills' team were one of the most loaded offensive teams ever. McNabb's supporting cast for most his career consisted of Westbrook, Thrash, Pinkston, Smith and Lewis, and Fred Ex. That's about as bad as a cast of skill players as a good QB has ever played with. Westbrook was the only one who could even sniff a pro bowl. Kelly had 2 HOF wrs (Reed will get there) and one of the greatest all round rbs in NFL history. There's a reason Reich could start and the offense won't miss a beat.

 

Maybe saying McNabb was better than Kelly was a bit much. But I do think they are at the very least on the same level. And some of the knocks on McNabb (choking, seriousness about the game) are the same knocks on Kelly. Kelly put up very bad postseason stats. I think both guys are very good QBs. I just think McNabb is critically underrated.

 

No. That would be Ben Roethlisberger. 3 SB's 2 wins with no OL. Rarely mentioned as a elite GB.

 

Anyone who doesn't think Big Ben (although he maybe a crappy person) isn't an elite or HOF QB is crazy. Yes, the Steelers have a great defense but he makes plays that most QBs can't make. McNabb was the same way.

[Bufcomments]

#5 never really got the credit he was due in Philly. He was a damn good QB in his prime. He really didnt have a top flight WR until T.O. then he got to the Super Bowl. So looking at it like that he had an impressive career giving all the Sh&t he went through. Plus he never really had a workhorse back to hand of to. The best back he had was Westbrook.

 

A HOF ? I dont know maybe down the line but certainly not first ballet. But Philly has been looking for his replacement since he left.

[Adam]

#5 never really got the credit he was due in Philly. He was a damn good QB in his prime. He really didnt have a top flight WR until T.O. then he got to the Super Bowl. So looking at it like that he had an impressive career giving all the Sh&t he went through. Plus he never really had a workhorse back to hand of to. The best back he had was Westbrook.

 

A HOF ? I dont know maybe down the line but certainly not first ballet. But Philly has been looking for his replacement since he left.

actually, he got to the Superbowl without Owens, then philly changed their offense to accommodate Owens when he returned.

[Bufcomments]

actually, he got to the Superbowl without Owens, then philly changed their offense to accommodate Owens when he returned.

I think T.O. was there for #5 most of the season. Didnt he break his ankle towards the end of the season? He missed the playoffs games but played in the super bowl and the game would not have been that close without T.O.

[Adam]

I think T.O. was there for #5 most of the season. Didnt he break his ankle towards the end of the season? He missed the playoffs games but played in the super bowl and the game would not have been that close without T.O.

The fallacy is that the game is played the same, but you just remove Owens. If you remove them forcing the ball to him, a lot of other things change as well.

[NoSaint]

For some reason, people love to hate on McNabb. He was a damn good QB. Maybe not a HOFer, but he is a lot closer than people think. Except for one year with TO and his last year in Philly, he played with absolute garbage at the receiver position (James Thrash, Tood Pinkston). He put up better numbers than our own Jim Kelly, yet McNabb is overrated and Kelly is the greatest Bill ever.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/4650/career;_ylt=AlkrX1KEYrinnTQG3sJjigj.uLYF

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KellJi00.htm

 

I don't know why people hate on McNabb. He was probably too nice of a guy. But it's not coincidence that the most successful period of Eagles football was when he was the QB. Philyl fans are freakign idiots. I would have killed to have McNabb in his prime. Very few Qbs did more with less.

 

Different eras - fitz puts up Kelly numbers

[CardinalScotts]

He was very very good for about a six year stretch. Not a Hall-of-Fame guy, I also dont think Aikman is either, but there is a list of guy I ask wth. Start with Cortez Kennedy

[San Jose Bills Fan]

For some reason, people love to hate on McNabb. He was a damn good QB. Maybe not a HOFer, but he is a lot closer than people think. Except for one year with TO and his last year in Philly, he played with absolute garbage at the receiver position (James Thrash, Tood Pinkston). He put up better numbers than our own Jim Kelly, yet McNabb is overrated and Kelly is the greatest Bill ever.

http://sports.yahoo....TQG3sJjigj.uLYF

http://www.pro-footb.../K/KellJi00.htm

 

I don't know why people hate on McNabb. He was probably too nice of a guy. But it's not coincidence that the most successful period of Eagles football was when he was the QB. Philyl fans are freakign idiots. I would have killed to have McNabb in his prime. Very few Qbs did more with less.

McNabb too nice of a guy?

 

He always struck me as a phony. JMO.

 

I maybe missing your point but McNabb was a much better QB than Bradshaw. TB only had 2 more tds than ints for his career. http://www.pro-footb.../B/BradTe00.htm He also threw to 2 HOF receivers and played with one of the greatest defenses ever.

 

I know I will get killed for this, McNabb was a better QB than Jim Kelly. Kelly was on a much stronger team.

Disagree with you about McNabb over Kelly. But I agree with your Pittsburgh take. Besides all the talent you mentioned around Bradshaw, he also had a HOF running back and a couple HOF offensive linemen.

 

I think those Pittsburgh teams could have won a few Super Bowls with Gary Marangi at quarterback.

 

McNabb was a great athlete, great college QB, and a very good basketball player. But lets be honest...he did allow himself to get fat and happy, especially in later in his career...early on he was able to rely on his athletisism to overcome some problems with his fundamentals, but as he got older (and that is no sin, it happens to everyone), I would contend he didn't keep himself in tip-top shape, and his game suffered for it. I still remember watching that Super Bowl live...my buddies and I were all pulling for the Eagles...that last drive, he just looked gassed, and like he was moving in slow motion, as time was just ticking off the clock...and this was before TO came out and said anything about it.

 

Now, Jimbo may have been guilty of getting a little puffy in his later years too, but his game didn't erode so badly that he hung on too far past his better days. McNabb could have been even better than he was, I think. The last few off seasons he would come out and say he was "feeling better than he has in years", "best shape of my career"....only to lumber his way through the season.

Totally spot on, Buftex. Before reading your post I was gonna say that McNabb was incredible (at least to me) early in his career. I had never seen a quarterback play like a point guard before.

 

His improvisational skills and ability to break down the defense using his instincts and athleticism were something I'd never seen before.

 

The infamous Super Bowl loss to New England seemed to be a turning point. To me it was an epic failure and instead of answering his critics and coming back better (AND FITTER) he seemed to get worse every year until the sad last few years.

 

I thought that McNabb could have been a Hall of Famer but at the critical moment in his career he came up short and the rest of his career after that was an anticlimax.

 

No for McNabb in the HOF… but yes for Warner, IMO.

 

 

[BiggieScooby]

IF the HOF was awarded on 5 year blocks to the top 2 QBs who entered the league - than McNabb might have a case. '98 Manning, '99 McNabb are the top 2 QBs from 95-99 draft classes and undrafted free agents.

 

1990 to 1994: '91 Favre, '94 Warner (Green Bay practice squad).

 

2000 to 2004, would be '00 Brady & '01 Brees. The class of '04 could mirror '83 with 3 1st round HOF QBs.

[ajzepp]

The class of '04 could mirror '83 with 3 1st round HOF QBs.

 

Rivers has a long way to go before he'll be in that conversation, IMO.

[OCinBuffalo]

I maybe missing your point but McNabb was a much better QB than Bradshaw. TB only had 2 more tds than ints for his career. http://www.pro-footb.../B/BradTe00.htm He also threw to 2 HOF receivers and played with one of the greatest defenses ever.

 

I know I will get killed for this, McNabb was a better QB than Jim Kelly. Kelly was on a much stronger team.

I am the walrus. Terry Bradshaw

Eli has 2 rings because he plays best in the playoffs. Eli Manning's brother racks up gaudy stats during the season and chokes out in the postseason.

It's going to be so fun watching the Broncos find this out this year.

[Orton's Arm]

FWIW, I'd put him in over Eli at this point. Even though Elisha has 2 rings, I still consider McNabb better unless Eli starts playing like Peyton.

Eli has been playing like Peyton. For a while now, in fact.

 

In the early years of his career, Eli didn't put up Peyton-like numbers or play at a Peyton-like level. He didn't play like Peyton during the season of his first Super Bowl. (Which is an important reason why the Giants only went 9-7 during that regular season.) But then something interesting happened during that postseason: for those few postseason games, he looked like a franchise QB, and was an important reason why the Giants won those postseason games. His playing at that elite level was a harbinger of things to come.

 

In 2009, Eli averaged 7.9 yards per pass attempt. He followed that up by averaging 7.4 and 8.4 yards per pass attempt in 2010 and 2011, respectively. Those are three very solid seasons, even by his brother's standards. Peyton's career average is 7.6 yards per pass attempt. From 2007 to 2010, Peyton averaged 7.8, 7.2, 7.9, and 6.9 yards per attempt.